RE: I want to get a Macbook at christmas.

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Knuckles_85 -> RE: I want to get a Macbook at christmas. (12/18/2007 7:53:59 PM)
Good luck gaming with Linux. I can't speak for Matrix all the different flavors Linux is a development nightmare. Microsoft was revolutionary when it came out with Direct X. Without the standardization of dealing with those Graphical API's we would be in the dark ages of gaming. Linux does have anything like that that's why you see so few Linux based games. As for Macs, I know with my PC I can go to any store I want to and say give me that mouse and that keyboard and it will work no matter if I'm using Windows 3.1 or Windows Vista. Mac alienated a lot of people early on and it came back to bite them in the ass.

leastonh1 -> RE: I want to get a Macbook at christmas. (12/18/2007 8:02:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ORANGE I guess I am favored toward MS...it is probably due to the fact that they are the targeted enemy for no other reason than they are big. Windows works. I have used Linux and seen but no used MACs. Linux is intriguing to me for devices not for an OS per se. MS aren't targeted because they're big. They are targeted because they produce crap products. The facts speak for themselves. Linux is far from perfect and does have some really big problems too, but at least the Linux devs are listening to the customer and trying to produce something useful. MS just produce what they think will sell the most, as it's all about profit. That's great for their business, but not much good for the end user. Windows does not work. Here's one very good site, of many: http://www.windows-sucks.com/ Regards, Jim

Marc von Martial -> RE: I want to get a Macbook at christmas. (12/18/2007 8:35:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Knuckles_85 As for Macs, I know with my PC I can go to any store I want to and say give me that mouse and that keyboard and it will work no matter if I'm using Windows 3.1 or Windows Vista. Apart from the fact that almost any standard peripherals and in out devices work with Macs (out of the box, be it Intel Macs or not) too, the above statement is simply BS [;)]. There is plenty of scanners, faxes, printers, gaming devices etc. etc. out there that do not work with Vista yet (missing drivers) properly or do not work with Window version smaller then XP. MS dropped Win 98 long ago, so did hardware manufacturers.

leastonh1 -> RE: I want to get a Macbook at christmas. (12/18/2007 8:50:01 PM)
Marc's right. I have an old, but hardly used flatbed scanner. The drivers for it were for Win 95/98 and simply don't even install under XP. So, do I buy a new scanner, just because the hardware is no longer officially supported? MS would like me to! Yet, I plugged this scanner into my Linux box and it worked without any fuss. I did eventually find "some" drivers for a different scanner that work with this one under XP, but it took me a long time to get them working. I have a box full of kit in my loft that's still in working order, but not with the latest MS versions of Windows. I would rather not buy something new just because MS drop support for it and force me into that position. Unfortunately, that's how their marketing and business models work. No thank you.

Knuckles_85 -> RE: I want to get a Macbook at christmas. (12/18/2007 8:53:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck quote: ORIGINAL: Knuckles_85 As for Macs, I know with my PC I can go to any store I want to and say give me that mouse and that keyboard and it will work no matter if I'm using Windows 3.1 or Windows Vista. Apart from the fact that almost any standard peripherals and in out devices work with Macs (out of the box, be it Intel Macs or not) too, the above statement is simply BS [;)]. There is plenty of scanners, faxes, printers, gaming devices etc. etc. out there that do not work with Vista yet (missing drivers) properly or do not work with Window version smaller then XP. MS dropped Win 98 long ago, so did hardware manufacturers. So you're telling me you can go out and buy a mouse and a keyboard and it will work with any Mac? Are you sure about that cause I've ran into difficulty in this area. I have a Graphic Design artist right now that's pissed cause her trackball mouse don't work since we upgraded her to 10.3

ORANGE -> RE: I want to get a Macbook at christmas. (12/18/2007 9:30:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jim_H Marc's right. I have an old, but hardly used flatbed scanner. The drivers for it were for Win 95/98 and simply don't even install under XP. So, do I buy a new scanner, just because the hardware is no longer officially supported? MS would like me to! Yet, I plugged this scanner into my Linux box and it worked without any fuss. I did eventually find "some" drivers for a different scanner that work with this one under XP, but it took me a long time to get them working. I have a box full of kit in my loft that's still in working order, but not with the latest MS versions of Windows. I would rather not buy something new just because MS drop support for it and force me into that position. Unfortunately, that's how their marketing and business models work. No thank you. You sound confused. The scanner manufacturer should write the drivers not MS.

ORANGE -> RE: I want to get a Macbook at christmas. (12/18/2007 9:43:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jim_H quote: ORIGINAL: ORANGE I guess I am favored toward MS...it is probably due to the fact that they are the targeted enemy for no other reason than they are big. Windows works. I have used Linux and seen but no used MACs. Linux is intriguing to me for devices not for an OS per se. MS aren't targeted because they're big. They are targeted because they produce crap products. The facts speak for themselves. Linux is far from perfect and does have some really big problems too, but at least the Linux devs are listening to the customer and trying to produce something useful. MS just produce what they think will sell the most, as it's all about profit. That's great for their business, but not much good for the end user. Windows does not work. Here's one very good site, of many: http://www.windows-sucks.com/ Regards, Jim MS is certainly targeted because they are big. Yes they are trying to make a profit but so are Linux DEV's to one extent or other. I think Linus himself draws a nice salary. To say Windows is not useful is less than fair. IT is certainly useful. You use it yourself! Unix like OS’s and Apple had a huge lead on MS and are now small parts of the market. One because of greed the other because most users found it hard to use for what they wanted to do. And I am not going to bite. You found a hate site for MS on the Internet. Big deal. The Internet would probably not be as big as it is now if it was not for Microsoft who gave the home user an affordable solution. Apple wanted to keep everything proprietary. Sell mice for $30 to $45 each. Sell their systems for $5,000. They priced it out of the user market BECAUSE OF GREED and now they are behind. I do not feel sorry for them. Again if Windows does not work then not only why would you use it but HOW can you use it?

leastonh1 -> RE: I want to get a Macbook at christmas. (12/18/2007 10:13:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ORANGE MS is certainly targeted because they are big. Yes they are trying to make a profit but so are Linux DEV's to one extent or other. I think Linus himself draws a nice salary. Linus is the exception, not the rule. There are many Linux devs out there who do it for no profit at all. They have regular jobs and develop their own distro as a hobby. PCLinuxOS is a good example. Tex makes no money from it and it's one of the most popular distros available. quote: ORIGINAL: ORANGE To say Windows is not useful is less than fair. IT is certainly useful. You use it yourself! I didn't say Windows isn't useful! I said MS aren't making the effort to produce something useful for their customers compared to Linux devs. MS produce for themselves first and customers second. They are 100% profit driven and there are many instances where they have been hammered in the press and in court for disregarding customers wishes. Being profit driven is fine, until you get to the situation where you have either battered or bought the opposition in the marketplace into submission and you are the monopoly. That's the problem. quote: ORIGINAL: ORANGE Unix like OS’s and Apple had a huge lead on MS and are now small parts of the market. One because of greed the other because most users found it hard to use for what they wanted to do. I agree. Linux is hard to use, but so is Windows. Come at this from a complete novice perspective. You've never touched a PC in your life. Someone gives you Linux and Windows to play with. Neither will be any harder than the other because you are working from a clean slate. You have nothing with which to compare. They are just different, that's all. quote: ORIGINAL: ORANGE And I am not going to bite. You found a hate site for MS on the Internet. Big deal. The Internet would probably not be as big as it is now if it was not for Microsoft who gave the home user an affordable solution. Apple wanted to keep everything proprietary. Sell mice for $30 to $45 each. Sell their systems for $5,000. They priced it out of the user market BECAUSE OF GREED and now they are behind. I do not feel sorry for them. I know little of Apple, so won't comment. I didn't ask you to bite, I gave an example of a site with constructive and valid criticism of MS products. It's not a hate site at all. Did you actually read any of the articles? Yes, they may very well hate MS, but their articles are well written, lucid and have some quite astonishing information in them. Especially the one about hidden folders in Windows. It's also ironic, based on what you wrote, that most of the Internet runs on Unix/Linux servers [;)] quote: ORIGINAL: ORANGE Again if Windows does not work then not only why would you use it but HOW can you use it? Semantics. I doubt anyone else took that comment as a literal statement. NM Regards, Jim

Marc von Martial -> RE: I want to get a Macbook at christmas. (12/18/2007 10:15:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Knuckles_85 quote: ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck quote: ORIGINAL: Knuckles_85 As for Macs, I know with my PC I can go to any store I want to and say give me that mouse and that keyboard and it will work no matter if I'm using Windows 3.1 or Windows Vista. Apart from the fact that almost any standard peripherals and in out devices work with Macs (out of the box, be it Intel Macs or not) too, the above statement is simply BS [;)]. There is plenty of scanners, faxes, printers, gaming devices etc. etc. out there that do not work with Vista yet (missing drivers) properly or do not work with Window version smaller then XP. MS dropped Win 98 long ago, so did hardware manufacturers. So you're telling me you can go out and buy a mouse and a keyboard and it will work with any Mac? Are you sure about that cause I've ran into difficulty in this area. I have a Graphic Design artist right now that's pissed cause her trackball mouse don't work since we upgraded her to 10.3 Well, I have a Windows compatible mouse that does not even work under Windows 98 anymore. It all depends on the hardware developers support. 10.3 was a leap as was 10.4 and now is 10.5 evenmore. It is the same as with Windows. With new SPs or OS updates stuff stops to work as things change, and the hardware or software devs have to work on it. If they do not do you re out of luck, hardly a Mac vs. Windows thing. You sounded like you can not attach "Windows" peripherals to a Mac, which is not true.

leastonh1 -> RE: I want to get a Macbook at christmas. (12/18/2007 10:30:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ORANGE You sound confused. The scanner manufacturer should write the drivers not MS. No, not confused at all! The scanner worked without the need for the manufacturers drivers under 95/98. It won't work with any inbuilt driver or the manufacturers drivers under XP. Hence the need to either replace the scanner or find a cheat.

ORANGE -> RE: I want to get a Macbook at christmas. (12/18/2007 10:49:56 PM)
Jim_H, With Linux and MAC out there MS certainly is not a monopoly. Sure courts and politicians have stated that but courts are no very technical and politicians are often working for special interests in many countries. Courts are often used as a tool to get an advantage in business. Microsoft itself has used courts or threats of legal action to meet its objectives. The very fact that you would consider Microsoft a monopoly is proof of its worth. No matter what the pressure if people did not find it useful they would not use MS products. Linux is free and still has a poor market share. Linus is not alone in profiting from Linux and open source. In my own opinion I would say most of the contributors expect to benefit either directly or indirectly from their contributions to the community. Marty Roesch who wrote Snort in a weekend and is not only a highly intelligent person but an excellent orator is also making money off of open source. The myth of the selfless and gifted developer sacrificing it all for a better world is a nice story but often less than the truth but I am sure makes some people a bunch of duckets.

JeF -> RE: I want to get a Macbook at christmas. (12/18/2007 11:11:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NefariousKoel I think this sums it up well: http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=macs_cant [:D] LoL !! Anyway, I'm typing it on a 4 years old iMac "that just works" (well mostly). And I am looking for a new Mac too. I might be yet another pretentious A-hole after all. [:'(] Cheers, JeF.

ORANGE -> RE: I want to get a Macbook at christmas. (12/18/2007 11:36:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jim_H quote: ORIGINAL: ORANGE You sound confused. The scanner manufacturer should write the drivers not MS. No, not confused at all! The scanner worked without the need for the manufacturers drivers under 95/98. It won't work with any inbuilt driver or the manufacturers drivers under XP. Hence the need to either replace the scanner or find a cheat. Why is this a Windows issue? You apparently did not have the proper driver for this non MS hardware. You could have probably gotten away with a generic driver which would be the equivalent of most Linux drivers anyway.

leastonh1 -> RE: I want to get a Macbook at christmas. (12/18/2007 11:49:25 PM)
ORANGE, Without doing a poll and checking out bank accounts of devs, all I can go on is what these people are saying to their communities, as Tex does with PCLinuxOS, for example. I have no way of verifying their claims, so take them at their word. Have you anything to back up your opinion that "most" are making money? Who mentioned open source apps like Snort? I was talking about many Linux devs. Are we on a different subject here?? I do disagree with you and find it a bit saddening that you are so cynical. Not everyone is out to make a buck, despite what you may think. Some people are genuinely nice and do care about what they do. Is that such a difficult concept to accept?? Come on, it's nearly Christmas! [;)] Macs are no competition to Windows and the PC, they don't cater to the same audience. You're talking about different hardware for one thing. Apples and Oranges (pun intended [:D]). Linux runs on almost any PC hardware, no matter what spec or age. It caters for a different market too, or it used to. People are fed up with MS and have begun looking for a viable alternative. You are right about Apple being greedy I think. At least, that's the impression I get when reading about them. Their computers are far too expensive for the average Joe, who knows little except they cost a lot and come in pastel colours! I personally know two people who bought macs (one was a laptop, the other a desktop) because they looked nice. I kid you not! Apple Macs may be great and do all sorts of wonderful things. That's great for those who like them. The same as iPod or iPhones. They probably aren't the best in the marketplace by a long shot, but take some beating for those people into fashion. It's just clever (expensive!) marketing. Linux couldn't compete with Windows or Mac until Ubuntu came along with all the financial backing it has. Love it or loath it, Ubuntu has brought Linux into the public eye and is going to be here for the duration. Linux is definitely going somewhere. Dell are selling it on their PC's now. This is the beginning. Again, you misread me. I wasn't talking about Microsoft's OS being a monopoly in the market. I was talking about components and software within that OS. They force users to adopt spurious and crap products which are hard coded into their OS (IE, WMP, Firewall etc.) and buy out or put out of business other companies who would normally be able to compete (e.g. Netscape). They are monopolising certain aspects of the market by misusing their power. I'm not a lawyer, judge or politician. Are you suggesting that these courts and politicians are mistaken, corrupt or misguided?? Are you saying MS is powerful enough to manipulate the courts?? Isn't that a little far fetched? Have I misunderstood? No matter which way you argue this case. The fact is that Windows is not a particularly good product, does NOT work as adverstised, is not finished, is owned by a money grabbing corp who couldn't care less about you and I and is used to badger people to buy new hardware, whether they need it or not. Linux has many faults, but is most certainly a viable alternative to Windows. Best of all, you can't beat free as a price!! Regards, Jim

cdbeck -> RE: I want to get a Macbook at christmas. (12/19/2007 12:57:13 AM)
Not to be a total buzz kill on all this back and forth mac vs windows. But isn't it quite possible the OP was Spam? I could be wrong, but the other 10 posts include links to buying sites and small, 1-2 line answers. Smells like potted meat to me... [:'(] SoM

leastonh1 -> RE: I want to get a Macbook at christmas. (12/19/2007 1:09:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Son_of_Montfort Smells like potted meat to me... [:'(] Bugger! I was so busy having an unsuccessful game of ping pong with ORANGE, I didn't notice that. ORANGE, you are a real poster too, aren't you?! [:D] Cheers SoM for erm, making me feel like a plonker! [:'(]

ORANGE -> RE: I want to get a Macbook at christmas. (12/19/2007 1:10:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jim_H ORANGE, Without doing a poll and checking out bank accounts of devs, all I can go on is what these people are saying to their communities, as Tex does with PCLinuxOS, for example. I have no way of verifying their claims, so take them at their word. Have you anything to back up your opinion that "most" are making money? Who mentioned open source apps like Snort? I was talking about many Linux devs. Are we on a different subject here?? I do disagree with you and find it a bit saddening that you are so cynical. Not everyone is out to make a buck, despite what you may think. Some people are genuinely nice and do care about what they do. Is that such a difficult concept to accept?? Come on, it's nearly Christmas! [;)] Macs are no competition to Windows and the PC, they don't cater to the same audience. You're talking about different hardware for one thing. Apples and Oranges (pun intended [:D]). Linux runs on almost any PC hardware, no matter what spec or age. It caters for a different market too, or it used to. People are fed up with MS and have begun looking for a viable alternative. You are right about Apple being greedy I think. At least, that's the impression I get when reading about them. Their computers are far too expensive for the average Joe, who knows little except they cost a lot and come in pastel colours! I personally know two people who bought macs (one was a laptop, the other a desktop) because they looked nice. I kid you not! Apple Macs may be great and do all sorts of wonderful things. That's great for those who like them. The same as iPod or iPhones. They probably aren't the best in the marketplace by a long shot, but take some beating for those people into fashion. It's just clever (expensive!) marketing. Linux couldn't compete with Windows or Mac until Ubuntu came along with all the financial backing it has. Love it or loath it, Ubuntu has brought Linux into the public eye and is going to be here for the duration. Linux is definitely going somewhere. Dell are selling it on their PC's now. This is the beginning. Again, you misread me. I wasn't talking about Microsoft's OS being a monopoly in the market. I was talking about components and software within that OS. They force users to adopt spurious and crap products which are hard coded into their OS (IE, WMP, Firewall etc.) and buy out or put out of business other companies who would normally be able to compete (e.g. Netscape). They are monopolising certain aspects of the market by misusing their power. I'm not a lawyer, judge or politician. Are you suggesting that these courts and politicians are mistaken, corrupt or misguided?? Are you saying MS is powerful enough to manipulate the courts?? Isn't that a little far fetched? Have I misunderstood? No matter which way you argue this case. The fact is that Windows is not a particularly good product, does NOT work as adverstised, is not finished, is owned by a money grabbing corp who couldn't care less about you and I and is used to badger people to buy new hardware, whether they need it or not. Linux has many faults, but is most certainly a viable alternative to Windows. Best of all, you can't beat free as a price!! Regards, Jim I am not sure about the Linux community now. I left it when I felt Red Hat sold out and made lots of dollars off of their IPO. I mentioned Marty Roesch because I have met him and followed Snort. I think he is not only a good guy but a great guy. But he still has to eat and there is nothing wrong with making money. I pointed out that Linus himself sold out and is now a multi-millionaire. There are lots of examples of people making more than a fair buck off of Linux. I think the biggest moneymaker off of Linux will be in simple devices not in actual OS usage. Storage devices, refrigerators, cars and music systems. Corporations like it because it is free and it relatively small. Here is an interesting article from 2004 when I think I stopped going to my local LUG. http://www.gcn.com/online/vol1_no1/26641-1.html?topic=daily-updates If Windows is not a particularly good product why do you use it? Why not just Linux? You say Windows does not work and you say it is a particularly good product yet use it I have to question your judgment. What exactly does MS get from making people buy new hardware? They sell like Mice and Keyboards and XBOX’s from what I can gather. Surely they are not making money off of selling hardware?

leastonh1 -> RE: I want to get a Macbook at christmas. (12/19/2007 2:06:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ORANGE If Windows is not a particularly good product why do you use it? Why not just Linux? You say Windows does not work and you say it is a particularly good product yet use it I have to question your judgment. I think we'll never agree on most of these points ORANGE. There seems little point going round in circles. My only answer to the question quoted above is: because I like playing wargames such as those published by Matrix. Regards, Jim

JeF -> RE: I want to get a Macbook at christmas. (12/19/2007 8:53:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Son_of_Montfort Not to be a total buzz kill on all this back and forth mac vs windows. But isn't it quite possible the OP was Spam? Yes you're right. 100% right. I hadn't noticed myself. [:o] You know you're killing a good flame war here, do you ? [;)] Well good ... [8\|] I mean Mac vs PC, it was too easy... JeF.

Nemesis -> RE: I want to get a Macbook at christmas. (12/19/2007 10:21:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ORANGE quote: ORIGINAL: Nemesis quote: ORIGINAL: ORANGELinux may have less problems but it supports less hardware, software and users. Um, hardware-support in Linux mops the floor with Windows and OS X combined. If you plug some device in to a Linux-box, there's a good chance that it just works. Windows? Windows will probably prompt you for drivers. LOL! You made a funny! [:D] Actually, not really. quote: More hardware works with Windows than works with Linux. This is because hardware vendors write drivers for Windows more often than they do for Linux. And still, all that myriad of hardware out there will work on Linux. And not only that, most of it works on several different architectures (PPC, MIPS, IA64 etc.). No, I'm not making this stuff up. There's plenty of hardware that is no longer supported on Windows, but is still supported on Linux. There's a myriad of rarer hardware that does not work on Windows but does on Linux. And all that "support" is built right in to Linux, instead of relying on user providing driver-CD's to the OS. How about mainstream-hardware? Well, that usually just works as well.

Nemesis -> RE: I want to get a Macbook at christmas. (12/19/2007 10:22:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ORANGE Why do you not play the games on Linux? [:D] [sm=happy0005.gif][sm=00000734.gif] Because I'm not currently running Linux for starters. And secondly: they are not usually available for Linux. What's the point of your post and those smileys?

Nemesis -> RE: I want to get a Macbook at christmas. (12/19/2007 10:35:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ORANGE MS is certainly targeted because they are big. Yes they are trying to make a profit but so are Linux DEV's to one extent or other. I think Linus himself draws a nice salary. Linus draws an "OK" salary, but he's not some multi-millionare you make him sound like. He received some stock-options back in the day (from Red Hat IIRC), and he used those to buy his family a house. I HAVE seen his house (no, not personally, but still), it's a nice middle-class (maybe upper middle-class) house. Not a palace or anything like that. quote: Apple wanted to keep everything proprietary. Sell mice for $30 to $45 each. I bought a Microsoft-mouse few months back that cost about that amount.... quote: Sell their systems for $5,000. Um, that's what computers cost back then....

leastonh1 -> RE: I want to get a Macbook at christmas. (12/19/2007 10:51:53 AM)
Sorry, I deleted my post because I can't be bothered with this age old, tired argument. I'll just sit back and watch someone else have a go instead! [sm=00000613.gif]

Marc von Martial -> RE: I want to get a Macbook at christmas. (12/19/2007 11:25:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ORANGE And I am not going to bite. You found a hate site for MS on the Internet. Big deal. The Internet would probably not be as big as it is now if it was not for Microsoft who gave the home user an affordable solution. Apple wanted to keep everything proprietary. Sell mice for $30 to $45 each. Sell their systems for $5,000. They priced it out of the user market BECAUSE OF GREED and now they are behind. I do not feel sorry for them. I'm sorry, but that is just plain stupid. First of, MS mice do cost the very same, other big input device developers sell them for even higher prices. It comes down to if you want a quality mouse that runs smooth two years from now, or buy an analog cable 10$ mouse every 6 months. Second, even in those days a regular mouse was working with a Mac. Sell their systems for 5000$, yes, a powerfull machine with a good display was costing that much back then. Macs were not used in DTP because they look cool (which they did not in those days), they were used because of their unbeaten performance. The "Macs are overpriced" thing is a real myth. If you seriously compare the built in hardware, features and the overall built quality of the casings then you will soon notice that a comparable Windows box is costing either the same, at minimum, or some serious cash more. Prime example these days, the quad MacPro. I saved over 1000€ (!) to a comparable Windows workstation that would be equally powerful, silent and with well built casing. Without going into any details the recent MacBook is a bargain too.

Nemesis -> RE: I want to get a Macbook at christmas. (12/19/2007 11:26:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jim_H Sorry, I deleted my post because I can't be bothered with this age old, tired argument. I'll just sit back and watch someone else have a go instead! [sm=00000613.gif] Well, I don't have that much interest in this ol' argument either :).

leastonh1 -> RE: I want to get a Macbook at christmas. (12/19/2007 11:40:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nemesis Well, I don't have that much interest in this ol' argument either :). LOL! And there was me all ready for a bit more mud slinging between the Windoze, Mac, Linux fans. Oh well, it was fun [:D] Seriously though, this is one of those arguments you can go at until you're blue in the face and still make no headway.

ORANGE -> RE: I want to get a Macbook at christmas. (12/19/2007 4:01:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jim_H quote: ORIGINAL: ORANGE If Windows is not a particularly good product why do you use it? Why not just Linux? You say Windows does not work and you say it is a particularly good product yet use it I have to question your judgment. I think we'll never agree on most of these points ORANGE. There seems little point going round in circles. My only answer to the question quoted above is: because I like playing wargames such as those published by Matrix. Regards, Jim So basically Linux is a good solution if you wish to compose and send email, create documents and worksheets and browse the Internet. No wonder why you have no problems with it. You use Windows for the heavy lifting.

ORANGE -> RE: I want to get a Macbook at christmas. (12/19/2007 4:15:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck quote: ORIGINAL: ORANGE And I am not going to bite. You found a hate site for MS on the Internet. Big deal. The Internet would probably not be as big as it is now if it was not for Microsoft who gave the home user an affordable solution. Apple wanted to keep everything proprietary. Sell mice for $30 to $45 each. Sell their systems for $5,000. They priced it out of the user market BECAUSE OF GREED and now they are behind. I do not feel sorry for them. I'm sorry, but that is just plain stupid. First of, MS mice do cost the very same, other big input device developers sell them for even higher prices. It comes down to if you want a quality mouse that runs smooth two years from now, or buy an analog cable 10$ mouse every 6 months. Second, even in those days a regular mouse was working with a Mac. Sell their systems for 5000$, yes, a powerfull machine with a good display was costing that much back then. Macs were not used in DTP because they look cool (which they did not in those days), they were used because of their unbeaten performance. The "Macs are overpriced" thing is a real myth. If you seriously compare the built in hardware, features and the overall built quality of the casings then you will soon notice that a comparable Windows box is costing either the same, at minimum, or some serious cash more. Prime example these days, the quad MacPro. I saved over 1000€ (!) to a comparable Windows workstation that would be equally powerful, silent and with well built casing. Without going into any details the recent MacBook is a bargain too. I was talking about the late 80's when most vendors sold the hardware and software and made a pretty penny raking you over the coals. A $30 mouse back then was a bigger deal than a $30 mouse now and there STILL are, thanks Microsoft!, cheaper solutions now. Apple wanted to keep everything proprietary which priced them out of the average home users range. Microsoft instead focused on the software only allowing vendors to compete to make better and or cheaper solutions. I am not sure if MAC is still proprietary since I have read mixed statements. I still think MAC are more expensive than PC’s and I like the option of building my own rig with my own vendors over just having to settle for what Steve Jobs thinks is best. If the solution was as good and fairly priced as you state then there is no doubt in my mind that Apple would be the huge behemoth now and MS would have gone the way of BeOS and OS/2.

ORANGE -> RE: I want to get a Macbook at christmas. (12/19/2007 4:26:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nemesis quote: ORIGINAL: ORANGE quote: ORIGINAL: Nemesis quote: ORIGINAL: ORANGELinux may have less problems but it supports less hardware, software and users. Um, hardware-support in Linux mops the floor with Windows and OS X combined. If you plug some device in to a Linux-box, there's a good chance that it just works. Windows? Windows will probably prompt you for drivers. LOL! You made a funny! [:D] Actually, not really. quote: More hardware works with Windows than works with Linux. This is because hardware vendors write drivers for Windows more often than they do for Linux. And still, all that myriad of hardware out there will work on Linux. And not only that, most of it works on several different architectures (PPC, MIPS, IA64 etc.). No, I'm not making this stuff up. There's plenty of hardware that is no longer supported on Windows, but is still supported on Linux. There's a myriad of rarer hardware that does not work on Windows but does on Linux. And all that "support" is built right in to Linux, instead of relying on user providing driver-CD's to the OS. How about mainstream-hardware? Well, that usually just works as well. I am not worried about my current operating system supporting the older hardware. To buy some of the older hardware used sometimes cost more than to buy the new hardware new. And while Linux may have drivers for a lot of devices I have to wonder if all of the features on these devices are fully supported. Windows has generic drivers that will work well but will not work great or support newer features.

Marc von Martial -> RE: I want to get a Macbook at christmas. (12/19/2007 4:34:10 PM)
Orange, you should keep in mind the MS just does the software (and some input devices, a console, and a lousy mp3 player) and Apple delivers the full package. MS never had the intent to develop the whole package, and thanks god they did not but left it to other developers that knew what they were doing [:'(] quote: If the solution was as good and fairly priced as you state then there is no doubt in my mind that Apple would be the huge behemoth now and MS would have gone the way of BeOS and OS/2. That's exactly why so many people switch today. It's not overpriced, you get the full package from one developer, a quality one too, and on top of it can run Windows natively on it [;)]. Apple switches more and more from the prosumer to the consumer market, at the same time still offering highend workstations. Intel/ Windows based prosumer boxes were also very expensive in the 80s. There's a lot of 3rd party devices and peripherals that are not Apple and there always have been. You always had the choice, it is just that some people think you do not have simply because "it is an Apple". I have a long experience in both worlds, Win and Apple. I don't simply close my eyes to one side or the other.

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