RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread (Full Version)

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Blackhorse -> RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread (2/1/2009 5:00:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

No. They cant move anyway (which was already explained).


At least one unit mentioned was an Australian reinforcement that arrives in ME and the comment was something like 'it will then be a race to see if the Allied player can ship in the reinforcements before the conquest of Australia.'


A clarification -- US invasion reinforcements are permanently restricted to the US West Coast (i.e. can not be shipped overseas). I believe that Japanese invasion reinforcements are also restricted to the Home Islands.

Commonwealth reinforcements arriving off-map in response to an invasion of India / Australia / New Zealand can, of course, be moved by sea.



Heeward -> RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread (2/1/2009 6:03:12 PM)

quote:

AE has additional Allied reinforcements if the Japanese invade the West Coast of North America, reach certain parts of India or Australia, or land in New Zealand.

Only the North American reinforcements arrive "in theater" . . . reinforcements for the others arrive in off-map boxes (coming from England or the Med) and have to be shipped in.


quote:

Does the allied player receive any additional shipping for the emergency reinforcement units?


quote:

No. They cant move anyway (which was already explained).


I'm confused - which my wife says I frequently am.

Can the emergency reinforcements move? If not - why include the off map reinforcements as static units?
The on map reinforcements will only serve as static garrisons which can be ignored until they can be harvested as well as eat replaments and supplies.

If they can be moved, then some of theses might arrive with shipping to move them or even be embarked in shipping as they are in transit - after all it is a crises.



Yamato hugger -> RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread (2/1/2009 6:17:12 PM)

Some arrive in the US. These units cant move.

Some arrive in Aus. These units cant move.

Some arrive in New Zealand. These units cant move.

Some arrive in the Med. These can move, and most if not all will have to return to the Med eventually. But no additional ships or planes are given to move them with.



witpqs -> RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread (2/1/2009 6:35:04 PM)

I assume you mean they can move within their restricted command area - like the US units can move on land within the designated contiguous USA area, etc.?



Andy Mac -> RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread (2/1/2009 6:36:44 PM)

Correct they are all mobile so they are not static but they may be restricted



steveh11Matrix -> RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread (2/5/2009 6:36:00 PM)

Quick question:

I've played the Japanese side once in stock - I bounced off of the 'production game' badly, screwing it up beyond all recogintion. ;-)

In AE, this aspect of the game is even more complex, and appears (so far) to be even more 'opaque' as well. Will it function properly if left to it's own devices?

As an alternative, is there a way to play as the Japanese without production on at all, but with historical arrivals instead?

Steve.



jwilkerson -> RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread (2/6/2009 4:36:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: steveh11Matrix

Quick question:

I've played the Japanese side once in stock - I bounced off of the 'production game' badly, screwing it up beyond all recogintion. ;-)

In AE, this aspect of the game is even more complex, and appears (so far) to be even more 'opaque' as well. Will it function properly if left to it's own devices?

As an alternative, is there a way to play as the Japanese without production on at all, but with historical arrivals instead?

Steve.


In WITP as well as AE ... one of the "hurdles" a Japanese player has to face - is dealing with the production system. To answer your last question first, it would be possible to modify the main scenario and turn production off - BUT - this would require adding "autogenerated" supply and fuel to various bases as a part of the MOD - and it would mean that the Japanese player is no longer required to move massive amounts of resources and crude oil back to the home islands from over seas. And in AE we have gone to great lengths to dramatically INCREASE the requirements for the Japanese player to ship historically accurate amounts of resources back to the HI. So removing this - removes the guts of the economic model - and one of the key strategic weakness of Japan IRL - her dependence on imports to drive her economy.

So, if you have your heart set on playing the Japanese in the campaign game, I recommend trying WITP again. I will say I made big mistakes about the first three times I tried it. But I learned from my mistakes - and finally figured out how to run it. And it does NOT require massive record keeping. You have to be willing to try a fail a few times - but failure is a great teacher!
[:)]

If the above is still too daunting then try the longer scenarios - like the Guadalcanal Scenario - this is a six month "mini-campaign" and does not require the Japanese production system. For AE we will have this scenario included with the initial release - and we have plans for other longer "mini-campaigns".



Kaletsch2007 -> RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread (2/6/2009 8:29:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: steveh11Matrix

Quick question:

I've played the Japanese side once in stock - I bounced off of the 'production game' badly, screwing it up beyond all recogintion. ;-)

In AE, this aspect of the game is even more complex, and appears (so far) to be even more 'opaque' as well. Will it function properly if left to it's own devices?

As an alternative, is there a way to play as the Japanese without production on at all, but with historical arrivals instead?

Steve.


WitP AE - Seperats the men from the boys [:D]
No offense !!!



steveh11Matrix -> RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread (2/6/2009 9:54:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson


In WITP as well as AE ... one of the "hurdles" a Japanese player has to face - is dealing with the production system. To answer your last question first, it would be possible to modify the main scenario and turn production off - BUT - this would require adding "autogenerated" supply and fuel to various bases as a part of the MOD - and it would mean that the Japanese player is no longer required to move massive amounts of resources and crude oil back to the home islands from over seas. And in AE we have gone to great lengths to dramatically INCREASE the requirements for the Japanese player to ship historically accurate amounts of resources back to the HI. So removing this - removes the guts of the economic model - and one of the key strategic weakness of Japan IRL - her dependence on imports to drive her economy.

So, if you have your heart set on playing the Japanese in the campaign game, I recommend trying WITP again. I will say I made big mistakes about the first three times I tried it. But I learned from my mistakes - and finally figured out how to run it. And it does NOT require massive record keeping. You have to be willing to try a fail a few times - but failure is a great teacher!
[:)]

If the above is still too daunting then try the longer scenarios - like the Guadalcanal Scenario - this is a six month "mini-campaign" and does not require the Japanese production system. For AE we will have this scenario included with the initial release - and we have plans for other longer "mini-campaigns".



Thanks. That confirms my own thinking - that removing the production game from the campaign scenario would actually remove it's raison d'etre. The problem in my initial attempt was that I couldn't figure out why it had gone wrong.

Steve.



steveh11Matrix -> RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread (2/6/2009 9:56:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaletsch2007

WitP AE - Seperats the men from the boys [:D]
No offense !!!



None taken, but that doesn't mean I have to accept a challenge. My aim, as always when playing games, is to have fun.

Steve.



FOW -> RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread (2/6/2009 2:20:51 PM)

With the WITPDecoder tool included with the game, managing the economy and seeing trends and shortfalls will be much easier.



Grotius -> RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread (2/6/2009 3:37:13 PM)

Steve, in my first go at Japan's production (vs the AI), I haven't found it all that hard to manage. Mostly I was just cautious about expanding anything -- I expanded small armaments, vehicle and aircraft factories but left the large ones alone, and I haven't expanded heavy industry at all. I do use WITP Tracker to watch my resources and industry, and AE will ship with a similar tool. All in all, I find production makes the game much more fun. I wish there were more production on the Allied side, in fact, though I understand why there isn't.



steveh11Matrix -> RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread (2/6/2009 5:59:22 PM)

FOW, Grotius: Thanks for the encouragement. :-)

Not for my first AE game, but I do believe I'm going to gain an epithantic fold soon after.

Steve.



Ramjet -> RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread (2/6/2009 9:57:50 PM)

In the stock game, I found that turning on the auto-convoy system worked very well with keeping the economy running. I turned on every port in Japan that had a production item such as resource, HI, oil, etc. Initially I only turn on the ports in Japan and for the first few months you can see the Japanese AK and TK units scurring about moving oil, resources, supply, and fuel. Starting around February, you can turn on all the ports in China and elsewhere that you have resource areas. By the time you have taken the really big prizes like Palembang and Balikipapen, the auto convoy system is all over the place, and you will find massive amounts of supply and fuel in your major ports in Japan. It is painful at times to watch becasue it makes no sense, but it is extremely effective overall. I usually get my butt kicked by good allied players, but never becuase I don't have enough resources.



princep01 -> RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread (2/9/2009 4:09:09 AM)

So when is the AE coming out?  The above is an interesting discussion of things varying from how many rivets are in the left wing of a P-35 to whether Croatia ever had a navy.....but, I don't find much info on when the new ed. is actually going to be sold.  Is there an announce ETA at this point?  Any comments?



Dili -> RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread (2/9/2009 4:31:12 AM)

No there is not any official information about that. I infer from what have being said that the end of developers work is in sight.



princep01 -> RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread (2/12/2009 4:36:58 AM)

Thanks, Dili.



jwilkerson -> RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread (2/12/2009 5:11:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: steveh11Matrix

The problem in my initial attempt was that I couldn't figure out why it had gone wrong.



Most likely you either expanded too much too fast - or you ran out of resources.

If you give it another whirl, I'd be happy to help, here is an example of helping another guy who broke his production - but was able to "coach" him into getting it working again - though it took some "persistence" !!!
[:)]

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1405257



steveh11Matrix -> RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread (2/12/2009 10:58:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson


quote:

ORIGINAL: steveh11Matrix

The problem in my initial attempt was that I couldn't figure out why it had gone wrong.



Most likely you either expanded too much too fast - or you ran out of resources.

If you give it another whirl, I'd be happy to help, here is an example of helping another guy who broke his production - but was able to "coach" him into getting it working again - though it took some "persistence" !!!
[:)]

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1405257


Expanded too fast I expect. With the additional problem of distribution.

Um. I note in your advice in the referred thread that you advocate using a **separate** spreadsheet program to track your industry, resources and such. Gah! [X(] Exceedingly off-putting - especially coming from someone in your position. I can't help thinking there ought to be an 'in-game' solution.

Also that you don't use the autoconvoy system... well as the Allies I could understand that in Stock, but with their interior lines the routing of Japanese convoys ought not to be a problem? [&:]

Which actually leads me back to my original question: In AE, if I don't 'muck around' with Japanese industry by expanding/closing/monitoring, and just ship in as much oil & resources as possible into Tokyo/Osaka/any Home Island port... will it 'work'? Do I only need to 'play' the Japanese production system if I want to change it from the historical setup and progression? (Can I be an Admiral in the Admiral's Edition, please, and not the Production Minister? [;)] )

Steve.



Wirraway_Ace -> RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread (2/13/2009 6:35:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: steveh11Matrix


Um. I note in your advice in the referred thread that you advocate using a **separate** spreadsheet program to track your industry, resources and such. Gah! [X(] Exceedingly off-putting - especially coming from someone in your position. I can't help thinking there ought to be an 'in-game' solution.


Steve.


While I have also been frustrated by the lack of an in-game solution in WITP, I have two thoughts:

1. I think this is resolved in AE (and this is an AE thread)
2. We are use to having too much info. The actual amount of good data the Japanese had to manage their economy and military output appears to have been very limited. Their assessments of even basic logisitic requirements such as fuel for the fleet were significantly in error. Some mystery and lack of predictability to the wartime economy should probably be maintained if you are interested in getting a feel for what it was like to try and fight WWII.



Dili -> RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread (2/13/2009 9:33:54 PM)

quote:

Which actually leads me back to my original question: In AE, if I don't 'muck around' with Japanese industry by expanding/closing/monitoring, and just ship in as much oil & resources as possible into Tokyo/Osaka/any Home Island port... will it 'work'? Do I only need to 'play' the Japanese production system if I want to change it from the historical setup and progression? (Can I be an Admiral in the Admiral's Edition, please, and not the Production Minister?


I expect not unless you want all places and units to start expanding and having the last toys, then you can expect ruin. Of course if you want to be on edge you will have to take more care and run the numbers, but with a prudential management i could run Japan without ever looking to a spreadsheet.



Sarganto -> RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread (2/14/2009 2:18:23 PM)

I have a question about Surface Commbat in AE.
Is there any change to how fleets engage each other? I mean, do they still have to end up in the same hex to fight?
I always found it highly annoying, that my Surface Combat Fleets aren't able to simply follow an enemy fleet and force it to fight. I always had to guess the right hex, the enemy fleet is going to.



vettim89 -> RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread (2/14/2009 5:42:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarganto

I have a question about Surface Commbat in AE.
Is there any change to how fleets engage each other? I mean, do they still have to end up in the same hex to fight?
I always found it highly annoying, that my Surface Combat Fleets aren't able to simply follow an enemy fleet and force it to fight. I always had to guess the right hex, the enemy fleet is going to.


I get where you are coming from. If you turn a submarine TF to computer control, it will follow and attempt to intercept slow moving TF's. So, you would like to see something like that in AE.

I would counter with most the major surface engagements in the PTO were when one side or the other was fixed in position covering an invasion or interceptions of resupply efforts/evacuations: Balikapaypan, Java Sea, Savo Island, Cape Esperance, Vila Standmore, Vella LaVella, etc. The few that weren't were still oriented around a fixed point - First Guadalcanal comes to mind. Mid ocean intercepts were much more common in the Atlantic.

The naval movement system does create some issues like this. Players are forced to guess where the opposing TF's will end up because you only get to alter orders once a day. In RL, float planes and LBA would be able to feed information to the TF commander throughout the day allowing course adjustments to intercept. I think this is just the nature of the beast.



Dili -> RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread (2/14/2009 6:10:26 PM)

It changed, they can intercept now. Do a search for details.



AW1Steve -> RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread (2/20/2009 8:36:46 PM)

Sorry, I should have posted in the AE map thread. Post deleted.



Sarganto -> RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread (2/22/2009 1:50:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

It changed, they can intercept now. Do a search for details.

Awesome, that's what I wanted to hear [:)]



Kull -> RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread (2/22/2009 3:02:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: steveh11Matrix

Um. I note in your advice in the referred thread that you advocate using a **separate** spreadsheet program to track your industry, resources and such. Gah! [X(] Exceedingly off-putting - especially coming from someone in your position. I can't help thinking there ought to be an 'in-game' solution.

Also that you don't use the autoconvoy system... well as the Allies I could understand that in Stock, but with their interior lines the routing of Japanese convoys ought not to be a problem? [&:]

Which actually leads me back to my original question: In AE, if I don't 'muck around' with Japanese industry by expanding/closing/monitoring, and just ship in as much oil & resources as possible into Tokyo/Osaka/any Home Island port... will it 'work'? Do I only need to 'play' the Japanese production system if I want to change it from the historical setup and progression? (Can I be an Admiral in the Admiral's Edition, please, and not the Production Minister? [;)] )

Steve.


You drew the wrong conclusion from that thread. That was a case where the guy messed around with almost everything and completely annhilated his economy. Joe's suggestion was to turn a lot of things off and to use the spreadsheet to monitor the return to health.

To me, the beauty of the Japanese Production system is that it's a mini-economy, and very hard to "game". I really LIKE the idea that you, as politician-in-charge, can go in with your price controls and command decisions and just break the whole thing almost irretrievably. As others have said, be cautious and do nothing more than tweak, and even then tweak only a few things at a time. Because even if you do nothing, production will slip out of kilter and you'll face shortages of one thing and too much of another. Which is deliciously similar to how the world really works.



steveh11Matrix -> RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread (2/22/2009 1:38:32 PM)

No I drew the correct conclusion: You can't play the game as the Japanese and ignore the economy. I have to actively run it.

I don't want to run it. I want the AI to run it. All I want to have to do is hand it the raw material. That's what the Admirals and Generals were supposed to be doing, and it was the job of the politicians and businessmen to do the rest. If I wanted to learn to run a "mini-economy", I'd be doing at least an MBA, not playing a game. If I have to handle stuff on spreadsheets outside the game itself, that's a long, long step too far.

The AI has to be able to handle the economy for it to run things when the player is Allies vs Computer Japan. Why not allow a continuation of it with the player running the Japanese military?

Never mind, it's not going to happen, at least not in this edition. I can stick to playing Allies.

Chuckle. I can hear the screams from here, about how "it's the only way to really play the game" and so on. Probably from the same people who say the only way to play the game is PBEM, which is another thing I'm completely un-interested in. [;)]



herwin -> RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread (2/22/2009 2:09:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: steveh11Matrix

No I drew the correct conclusion: You can't play the game as the Japanese and ignore the economy. I have to actively run it.

I don't want to run it. I want the AI to run it. All I want to have to do is hand it the raw material. That's what the Admirals and Generals were supposed to be doing, and it was the job of the politicians and businessmen to do the rest. If I wanted to learn to run a "mini-economy", I'd be doing at least an MBA, not playing a game. If I have to handle stuff on spreadsheets outside the game itself, that's a long, long step too far.

The AI has to be able to handle the economy for it to run things when the player is Allies vs Computer Japan. Why not allow a continuation of it with the player running the Japanese military?

Never mind, it's not going to happen, at least not in this edition. I can stick to playing Allies.

Chuckle. I can hear the screams from here, about how "it's the only way to really play the game" and so on. Probably from the same people who say the only way to play the game is PBEM, which is another thing I'm completely un-interested in. [;)]


I agree--the default settings for the Japanese economy should provide vanilla-flavoured management given adequate imports of resources and oil. The fact that the default settings cause it to crash and burn in about a game year is a serious deficiency.



vettim89 -> RE: Admiral's Edition General Thread (2/22/2009 3:30:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: steveh11Matrix

No I drew the correct conclusion: You can't play the game as the Japanese and ignore the economy. I have to actively run it.

I don't want to run it. I want the AI to run it. All I want to have to do is hand it the raw material. That's what the Admirals and Generals were supposed to be doing, and it was the job of the politicians and businessmen to do the rest. If I wanted to learn to run a "mini-economy", I'd be doing at least an MBA, not playing a game. If I have to handle stuff on spreadsheets outside the game itself, that's a long, long step too far.

The AI has to be able to handle the economy for it to run things when the player is Allies vs Computer Japan. Why not allow a continuation of it with the player running the Japanese military?

Never mind, it's not going to happen, at least not in this edition. I can stick to playing Allies.

Chuckle. I can hear the screams from here, about how "it's the only way to really play the game" and so on. Probably from the same people who say the only way to play the game is PBEM, which is another thing I'm completely un-interested in. [;)]


I think the Japanese Economic model is included in WITP for two very important reasons:

1. Historically the Japanese did a very poor job managing their economy that it begs the question: "What would happen if just a few better decisions were made in this area?" Just somthing as simple as not tieing up so many resources in building superbattleships and their conversions? WHat if the Japanese applied more resources to building a better ASW fleet. If WITP is meant to be more than than just a replay of the RL events, these are questions worth asking

2. More importantly, the war against Japan was as much economic as it was military campaign. So much much affected Japans ability to continue to fight the war as their economic resources dwindled. Without an economy to attck, the Allied player would have no way to pursue this course of the war.

SO its a very necessary beast. I do agree that it should be easier to manage on default settings



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