is the braindead AI going to be solved??? (Full Version)

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Tanan Fujiwara -> is the braindead AI going to be solved??? (12/9/2007 2:01:32 AM)

Well I just finished playing my second game with the hardest settings and options possible and I'm in no doubt now that the AI is braindead... It was a walk in the park!!![>:][>:][>:]

Actually it became quite amusing to see the amount of senseless DoW's the AI kept declaring without any logic behind them, and afterwards it just stood there and did nothing to bring those wars to an end.[&:]

The AI makes stupid moves and comits the Corps to piecemeal attacks constantly, and that if you are lucky, because most of the time it just sits there and waits doing nothing, even if it was the one who declared war in the first place. And to top it off, the diplomacy between major powers is non existant and there is no way to actualy now what stance each major power has towards the others.

So my question is: will matrix games do something about the braindead AI???, because if that's not the case the game is definitly of no use for solo play, and if that is the case and what we have here is a pbem game only then I really don't understand the price of the game.[&:][&:]







Erik Rutins -> RE: is the braindead AI going to be solved??? (12/9/2007 2:15:21 AM)

People are reporting varying experiences with the AI and we're listening. As soon as the first update is out to address critical issues and bugs, we'll be looking at ongoing AI improvements as the top priority.



DodgyDave -> RE: is the braindead AI going to be solved??? (12/9/2007 2:34:23 AM)

Tanan, i agree AI is funny and stupid :) but i like the game, waiting for more games to start up, so to play more with other players until the AI works properly, as i suspect those pbem games are slow lol



ravinhood -> RE: is the braindead AI going to be solved??? (12/9/2007 2:38:28 AM)

Tanan you ought to know by now that most games out of the box or upon release have issues out the Ying Yang. You certainly can't expect the AI to be tip top ship shape at the get go. I certainly am not and will be waiting on futher reviews of it as patches come out. From my experience the majority of games need at least 3 patches before the game and the AI is up to at least fair. So, sit back relax play something else (WitP should keep you occupied for awhile) and wait on the patches. ;)



Tanan Fujiwara -> RE: is the braindead AI going to be solved??? (12/9/2007 4:48:32 AM)

Well you might be right ravinhood, I don't know much about pc games really, since the only ones I buy and play are, for the most part, boardgames that have been passed on to computer. The reason behind this is mainly solo play, since I don't have as much time as I did before to join in with other people to play (wife, kids, work...). I still play ocasionally with a group of friends and I'm up and running in two cyberboard campaigns... so my main interest in this game was basically solo play.

Don't get me wrong, the game looks quite nice (I didn't expected to be so close to the actual boardgame) and allthough is a bit unfriendly it has a lot of potential. I just feel disapointed because I expected a bit more out of the AI, but as you say and  from what matrix has published, I'll sit tight and wait for the upgrades.

My best



Artmiser -> RE: is the braindead AI going to be solved??? (12/9/2007 9:01:01 AM)

Sadly ravinhood I can remember when games came out that were complete out of the box.  Has not happened in years.



ravinhood -> RE: is the braindead AI going to be solved??? (12/9/2007 2:18:25 PM)

Oh I know Artmiser I've been on that soapbox for years. But, in Matrixgames case these NEW games they are producing they do put plenty of time into after release. This is probably one of there more exceptional to the norm for their releases, but, I fully expect them to still support this one until it's actually in fair/good shape. One could easily see from the posts it was released in PBEM mode and not so much solo play. Once they get the PBEM mode up and going in better condition then they'll start to work on the AI as Erik has stated.

I'm a bit more lenient on Matrixgames releases than I am Paradox because Paradox has smart ass Admins and Moderators at their site that pretty much impose THEIR way and threaten banning everytime you have issues with their games. For instance there's an issue going on over at the CK/Dues Vult forum which I was involved in concerning the pledging system. Not only did the moderator cut my OPINION short with threat of banning, but, also the main admin after I carried my opinon futher. Just goes to show Matrixgames has a more open forum (though there are times we all cross the line), but, Paradox is too gestapoishlike and forces the forum to run a particular way and by orders. If I like a FEATURE within a game I don't want some moderator or admin telling me I can't like it because 9 other people on the forum don't. Or be told (and I was told) I can't express my opinion to the fact while others can. Grosshaus over there is a real pip. lol That's why I enjoy Matrixgames site so much. I have the freedom to express myself and only occassionally do some things get out of hand. But, at least Erik et al let me have my say, I don't hear the ban word after every other opinion here. ;)



MilRevKo -> RE: is the braindead AI going to be solved??? (12/10/2007 1:38:40 AM)

This is a PBEM game. We will not see a computer program that is capable fighting against humans at this level of complexity in our life times. The utilization of income, manpower, military production, strategy, intuition, and diplomacy (stabbing a person in the back is still diplomacy) are beyond the silicon chip at this point.

Probably better for mankind this way...

--
Utinam populus romanus unam cervicem haberet!



John Neal -> RE: is the braindead AI going to be solved??? (12/10/2007 1:48:35 AM)

Yes, as this game was designed to follow a board game, i would think it would be very difficult to design an AI that could compete with an experienced human player.

Different topic:
This game would be wild with a 'we go' movement system, where all units move at the same time. Somehow i doubt the system would work, but wonder in that case, would the AI logic be easier?



SkyElf -> RE: is the braindead AI going to be solved??? (1/1/2008 10:15:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Oh I know Artmiser I've been on that soapbox for years. But, in Matrixgames case these NEW games they are producing they do put plenty of time into after release. This is probably one of there more exceptional to the norm for their releases, but, I fully expect them to still support this one until it's actually in fair/good shape. One could easily see from the posts it was released in PBEM mode and not so much solo play. Once they get the PBEM mode up and going in better condition then they'll start to work on the AI as Erik has stated.

I'm a bit more lenient on Matrixgames releases than I am Paradox because Paradox has smart ass Admins and Moderators at their site that pretty much impose THEIR way and threaten banning everytime you have issues with their games. For instance there's an issue going on over at the CK/Dues Vult forum which I was involved in concerning the pledging system. Not only did the moderator cut my OPINION short with threat of banning, but, also the main admin after I carried my opinon futher. Just goes to show Matrixgames has a more open forum (though there are times we all cross the line), but, Paradox is too gestapoishlike and forces the forum to run a particular way and by orders. If I like a FEATURE within a game I don't want some moderator or admin telling me I can't like it because 9 other people on the forum don't. Or be told (and I was told) I can't express my opinion to the fact while others can. Grosshaus over there is a real pip. lol That's why I enjoy Matrixgames site so much. I have the freedom to express myself and only occassionally do some things get out of hand. But, at least Erik et al let me have my say, I don't hear the ban word after every other opinion here. ;)


I agree that Paradox Moderators are very pompus at times in some forums. We all have are opinion on various games from them, and as long as we keep from name calling. Wait very patiently for there updates that are due from 2 plus years now on HOI2 and there expansions with same problems being carried over and over. Enough on that subject.



zaquex -> RE: is the braindead AI going to be solved??? (1/1/2008 10:28:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MilRevKo

This is a PBEM game. We will not see a computer program that is capable fighting against humans at this level of complexity in our life times. The utilization of income, manpower, military production, strategy, intuition, and diplomacy (stabbing a person in the back is still diplomacy) are beyond the silicon chip at this point.

Probably better for mankind this way...

--
Utinam populus romanus unam cervicem haberet!


I think its very possible to make a system that makes playing against the AI challenging, it would take a fair bit of effort and a clever design but i would say its very possible even though human players always would be prefered.



Grognot -> RE: is the braindead AI going to be solved??? (1/1/2008 12:03:09 PM)

quote:


This game would be wild with a 'we go' movement system, where all units move at the same time. Somehow i doubt the system would work, but wonder in that case, would the AI logic be easier?


Even assuming that the rules were trivially modifiable to permit it in an non-unbalancing fashion (and I wouldn't bet on it!), it would likely be harder -- provided that it was true 'we go', and not an asymmetric situation in which the human must give orders blind to the AI orders, but the AI cheats by knowing what the human's orders are before giving its "simultaneous" orders (*). You're making the problem more complex in terms of hidden information... and bear in mind that the AI isn't being programmed by a team of researchers using a massive computer cluster.


(*) Info-cheats are common. 'Shogun: Total War' did this extremely blatantly -- its "simultaneous" orders would actually change based on what orders you gave. This was defended by its fans as 'spying', but the in-game intelligence available to the player was never remotely as good no matter how much the player invested in espionage or counterespionage -- the human player was normally given vague alleged objectives to take place many turns later, and which would change dramatically on a turn-by-turn basis (and often never be attempted), rather than the actual moves. I say this as a player who experimented to the point of filling entire provinces with spies -- that is, there was no more room in a province to put more units.



ETF -> RE: is the braindead AI going to be solved??? (1/1/2008 8:10:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

I'm a bit more lenient on Matrixgames releases than I am Paradox because Paradox has smart ass Admins and Moderators at their site that pretty much impose THEIR way and threaten banning everytime you have issues with their games. For instance there's an issue going on over at the CK/Dues Vult forum which I was involved in concerning the pledging system. Not only did the moderator cut my OPINION short with threat of banning, but, also the main admin after I carried my opinon futher. Just goes to show Matrixgames has a more open forum (though there are times we all cross the line), but, Paradox is too gestapoishlike and forces the forum to run a particular way and by orders. If I like a FEATURE within a game I don't want some moderator or admin telling me I can't like it because 9 other people on the forum don't. Or be told (and I was told) I can't express my opinion to the fact while others can. Grosshaus over there is a real pip. lol That's why I enjoy Matrixgames site so much. I have the freedom to express myself and only occassionally do some things get out of hand. But, at least Erik et al let me have my say, I don't hear the ban word after every other opinion here. ;)


Hmm sorry to hear that Ravin.........I have found the Paradox Forums quite enjoyable. You are correct they are moderated more so than Matrix. Not sure if that is always a bad thing [:D]



ETF -> RE: is the braindead AI going to be solved??? (1/1/2008 8:14:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tainan Fujiyama

Well I just finished playing my second game with the hardest settings and options possible and I'm in no doubt now that the AI is braindead... It was a walk in the park!!![>:][>:][>:]

Actually it became quite amusing to see the amount of senseless Dow's the AI kept declaring without any logic behind them, and afterwords it just stood there and did nothing to bring those wars to an end.[&:]

The AI makes stupid moves and commits the Corps to piecemeal attacks constantly, and that if you are lucky, because most of the time it just sits there and waits doing nothing, even if it was the one who declared war in the first place. And to top it off, the diplomacy between major powers is non existent and there is no way to actually now what stance each major power has to wards the others.

So my question is: will matrix games do something about the brain dead AI???, because if that's not the case the game is definitely of no use for solo play, and if that is the case and what we have here is a poem game only then I really don't understand the price of the game.[&:][&:]




All the more reason to have a decent MP lobby and TCP/IP support. Do you really think these small war game publishers can actually produce a decent AI? I have never seen one yet in 20 years of computer war gaming. I wish they would take their AI programming money and work with a modern PBEM ie WE GO or better yet a TCP/IP - Matrix Lobby.
The AI should be relegated to Tutorial scenarios only IMHO.



hakon -> RE: is the braindead AI going to be solved??? (1/1/2008 8:37:20 PM)

Actually, Civ IV had a fairly decent AI, iirc. So it IS possible to create strong AI for wargame-like games. I'm not saying it's easy, though.



Mynok -> RE: is the braindead AI going to be solved??? (1/1/2008 8:45:51 PM)


Civilization is vasty less complicated game than EiA. There will NEVER be an AI for this game that is good for anything more than training until we have true artificial intelligence.




yammahoper -> RE: is the braindead AI going to be solved??? (1/1/2008 8:53:10 PM)

I think this game is really designed for TCP/IP.   I have several local friends to play with, and we would even LAN a few campaigns twice a year or so.  The way thr program handles all the math is nice.

But first fix the bugs.  It is so not cool to enter a naval battle, the screen flashes, no battle, and I am back to the normal map to learn the battle resolved itself, or never even occured, but my ships are where I left them and still able to move.  Weird stuff that would really suck in a LAN game.

yamma



ETF -> RE: is the braindead AI going to be solved??? (1/1/2008 9:04:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hakon

Actually, Civ IV had a fairly decent AI, iirc. So it IS possible to create strong AI for wargame-like games. I'm not saying it's easy, though.


Well not sure what your definition of Fairly decent is. But for a multimillion dollar game I think it is quite poor.....Unless you think a Cheating AI is decent [;)]



ETF -> RE: is the braindead AI going to be solved??? (1/1/2008 9:05:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: yammahoper@yahoo.com

I think this game is really designed for TCP/IP.  



Agreed............forget about trying to band-aid an AI that at best will only entertain beginners.



Jimmer -> RE: is the braindead AI going to be solved??? (1/2/2008 8:25:47 PM)

I do one thing that makes it a bit more of a challenge (a SMALL bit). The AI tends to send out small armies (frequently, only one corps). To offset that, I make a "rule" that I follow when at war: Never overstack one of my leaders. This way, at least they have a chance, at least against everybody except France. So, Nappy never takes more than six corps into battle.

I'm almost to the point where I'm going to change it to "Never go above half (rounded up) of the corps counter limit of a leader". So, Blucher won't take more than three corps into battle.



dauphan129 -> RE: is the braindead AI going to be solved??? (1/2/2008 9:50:35 PM)

quote:

There will NEVER be an AI for this game that is good for anything more than training until we have true artificial intelligence.


I disagree with this statement in that the game could be programmed to follow certain paths. Perhaps have three or four profiles for each nation in which the AI prioritizes it's options in different ways, I just think it would be exceptionally hard to do.

In anycase, at least getting the AI to start focusing on ending wars (moving and using troops better and make it invade and sit on Red Cities) and maybe setup some conditions that have to be met before Wars are declared (like before Austria and Prussia would go to war with each other in most real games they would both have to have surrendered to or gotten a surrender from France). I think alot of the "Random Declarations" come from the AI not backing down on Minor DOWs. Establishing a pecking order (for backing down DOWs) and placing priority on Minors for the AI countries would help too. Finally, maybe in the vein of what Jimmer said, an easy fix maybe would to set the AI to "always have at least the number of corp a general can command as a minimum and never more than double that number as a maximum for AI Generals. Also prioritze them somehow. I would never give Blucher 1 militia corps to command! Why would AI Prussia do it?

Still, this game was designed to be played Multi-player, all Humans. I think someday it will be a great single player game too but that was not the initial design and I think it is awesome for what it is.



Joram -> RE: is the braindead AI going to be solved??? (1/3/2008 1:23:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Civilization is vasty less complicated game than EiA. There will NEVER be an AI for this game that is good for anything more than training until we have true artificial intelligence.




I pray that you are wrong but if you happen to be right, this will be why these games always will be a small niche market. I'm waiting for a few patches myself before I make any judgement on getting this game.



pzgndr -> RE: is the braindead AI going to be solved??? (1/3/2008 1:34:26 AM)

quote:

As soon as the first update is out to address critical issues and bugs, we'll be looking at ongoing AI improvements as the top priority.


Well said. Many players look forward to ongoing AI improvements. [8D]

quote:

Still, this game was designed to be played Multi-player, all Humans. I think someday it will be a great single player game too but that was not the initial design and I think it is awesome for what it is.


I disagree with some of this.

First, the original board game was obviously designed to be played by humans as multiplayer. But, ALL humans? By design, UMP rules were included to allow less than 7 human players and still provide for all 7 major powers to play. The ideal game would have 7 human players, of course, but one can also argue that the game was in fact "designed" for some non-human UMP players (although UMPs were controlled by human players based on "AI" rules).

Second, the initial design of the original board game is not necessarily the final design of this computer adaptation. I think Marshall Ellis and Eric Rutins and others on the development team fully recognize the potential of AI for computer opponents, and the market reality of providing challenging AI for computer games. Some players may not care for computer opponents and that's fine, but for others it is an expectation. Take away the AI completely and you may as well play EiA and all other board games via CyberBoard or some other PBEM software. THIS is a computer game and the AI is not going to go away.

The good news is that Matrix is trying to satisfy all players, not just one group at the expense of another. So there really is nothing to argue about, and no call for petty criticisms of AI development efforts. I wouldn't expect the AI of this game to become brilliant, but I would agree that someday it can be a great single player game too (or for small playgroups of 2-4 human players). And I would expect even the grognard board game veterans may someday appreciate a challenging & full function AI in lieu of the original & limited UMP rules for one or more major powers. So I'd say there is incentive for all players to support ongoing AI improvements. [:)]



Queeg -> RE: is the braindead AI going to be solved??? (1/3/2008 1:55:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr
So I'd say there is incentive for all players to support ongoing AI improvements. [:)]


For me, no AI, no buy.



Mynok -> RE: is the braindead AI going to be solved??? (1/3/2008 1:56:26 AM)


quote:

So I'd say there is incentive for all players to support ongoing AI improvements.


I don't think so, but we'll agree to disagree. I frankly don't care about AI in any computer game, as I have little interest in playing non PBEM stuff. UMP rules, certainly. That would be helpful. Much more than attempts to create a satisfactory AI for game so intricately based on human interplay and intrigue. Every dollar going into AI "improvement" is a dollar that's not going into PBEM or TCP/IP improvements.

Try PBEM or hotseat folks. It is the raison d'etre of this game. Don't make excuses. Where there's a will there's a way.



yammahoper -> RE: is the braindead AI going to be solved??? (1/3/2008 3:06:58 AM)

I would like AI improvements.  But I also want to LAN this with friends without having to hot seat. 

I have had the best battles by going with smaller stacks.  The AI has flaws, but it does fight very well.

yamma



Adraeth -> RE: is the braindead AI going to be solved??? (1/3/2008 10:32:21 AM)

I think that every game must have a challenging AI, and for sure has to be a good engine for multi; but the Single Player feature can't be "sacrified" to the MultiPlayer God.

A game to be pointed as complete has to be playable both in Single Player and in Multi; there are plenty of game that are enjoyable in SP, multi is not the final answer forever.



saintsup -> RE: is the braindead AI going to be solved??? (1/3/2008 11:06:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


quote:

So I'd say there is incentive for all players to support ongoing AI improvements.


I don't think so, but we'll agree to disagree. I frankly don't care about AI in any computer game, as I have little interest in playing non PBEM stuff. UMP rules, certainly. That would be helpful. Much more than attempts to create a satisfactory AI for game so intricately based on human interplay and intrigue. Every dollar going into AI "improvement" is a dollar that's not going into PBEM or TCP/IP improvements.

Try PBEM or hotseat folks. It is the raison d'etre of this game. Don't make excuses. Where there's a will there's a way.



Same here. Without AI I can go to cyberboard or vassal.



lancerunolfsson -> RE: is the braindead AI going to be solved??? (1/3/2008 11:26:17 AM)

quote:

I frankly don't care about AI in any computer game, as I have little interest in playing non PBEM stuff


You might want to care! I used to pbem a lot, so I have nothing against pbem. But out of the actual real life computer gamers I know only 2 (including myself) ever pbem at all, out of 9 guys. If the AI sucks and no effort goes in to developing them you are going to lose most of the people that actualy buy these games;^)Which translates in to fewer game releases.



pzgndr -> RE: is the braindead AI going to be solved??? (1/3/2008 3:05:46 PM)

quote:

I don't think so, but we'll agree to disagree. I frankly don't care about AI in any computer game, as I have little interest in playing non PBEM stuff.


There is absolutely nothing to disagree about. Marshall Ellis and Eric Rutins have clearly stated their intent to provide ongoing AI improvements. End of story. Period.

For board gamers who care only for PBEM, there is VASSAL. Why should Matrix waste its time and money trying to make a fancier VASSAL-style PBEM game engine for EiA?? [8|]

This is a totally silly argument. PBEMers can fully enjoy the Matrix computer game without ever using the AI. Fine. For many others, the convenience of a challenging computer opponent is a major attraction of computer games and Matrix is committed to supporting these paying customers also. Like I said, Matrix is trying to satisfy all players, so why raise a stink about it??

quote:

Try PBEM or hotseat folks. It is the raison d'etre of this game. Don't make excuses. Where there's a will there's a way.


You make it sound as if playing with 5, 6 or 7 human opponents and using only the original UMP rules is the only way to play. That may be a raison d'etre of this game, and hopefully newbie players will eventually rise to that challenge, but what about the smaller playgroups of 2, 3 or 4 players who want a PBEM game using a challenging AI for the other major powers rather than the old limited UMP rules? That is also a raisin d'etre of this computer game adaptation. Again, Matrix is trying to satisfy both of these objectives. [:)]



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