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Krasny -> The Manual (12/10/2007 1:25:25 PM)

the manual for EiA is easily the worst manual for a computer game i have ever read

indeed it is the second worst piece of liturature i have ever read (the first being the koran)

firstly it is many times the size of the AH manual, yet manages to exlain less. how is this possible, it's like someone was asked to write a manual who knew the game inside and out, and who neglected to assume most people reading the manual were new to the game

secondly it doesn't make sense, it's like reading a manual on a programming language

the moral of the story is, write a tutorial, it's a great way of explaining how to play a game AND it will give great insights as to what is wrong with the manual



Don60420 -> RE: The Manual (12/10/2007 1:46:29 PM)

Agreed. What would probably be helpful is for Matrix to establish a private forum where picked registered users, in the same manner as beta testers are chosen, could have access to an on-line version of the manual and suggest revisions. The manual could be so much more helpful than it currently is. To be fair, manuals are tough to write, and I do not mean to disparage this initial effort. However the feedback on this forum thus far is a clear indication of the confusion that the current manual is doing little to dissipate.



Erik Rutins -> RE: The Manual (12/10/2007 2:43:35 PM)

Ralegh is working on a tutorial and we will certainly take the manual feedback to heart. I don't know that there's any way for us to set up an editable online version of the print-ready PDF, but there is an in-game version that can be updated.



Jimmer -> RE: The Manual (12/10/2007 6:47:31 PM)

Erik:

How about a WIKI? Does Matrix have the resources to set up a WIKI? That would allow the players themselves to write their own statements, make corrections, etc.



JudgeDredd -> RE: The Manual (12/10/2007 11:49:41 PM)

I find this a common problem, and not solely a Matrix issue (I know you weren't suggesting that anyway.

I have any number of games over the years, and the manuals have been less than pitiful. GTR2 is a very complex GTR racing simulation with a manul that covers virtually bugger all of required info. F1 99-02 before it.

The truth is, companies place very little value on the manual...alot like coding. When coding a project, very little time is allowed for "commenting" said code, and yet it is an absolute requirement to help ease a new developer into the seat. But the time required for adding comments to code is not factored into creating the software project.

I personally think the same goes for manuals. For very good reasons, the bulk of the manual will probably be left until very near the end of the project. This isn't good, though, because come the end of the project, focus will switch to getting the product out the door.

It is poor, in this day and age, that a complex computer game does not come with a manual and a tutorial.

My comments are not specifically directed at this game, as I do not own it. I'm basing my comments on computer games in general and posting here because it's on topic and a topic very close to my heart (I like nice, shiny, physical, decent, detailed manuals)



James Ward -> RE: The Manual (12/10/2007 11:57:04 PM)

I haven't seen this manual but I'm convinced that manuals should be written by someone who has a basic understanding of how the game PLAYS but who is not deeply involved with creating the game. Someone involved with developing the game assumes to much will be understood by a new gamer simply because they have grown up with the game and it is obvious to them.



JudgeDredd -> RE: The Manual (12/11/2007 12:01:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: James Ward

...Someone involved with developing the game assumes to much will be understood by a new gamer simply because they have grown up with the game and it is obvious to them.

That is absolutely correct.

Although in my examples above (GTR2 and F1 99-02) it was pure laziness from the developers/publishers.



Monadman -> RE: The Manual (12/11/2007 12:32:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: James Ward

I haven't seen this manual but I'm convinced that manuals should be written by someone who has a basic understanding of how the game PLAYS but who is not deeply involved with creating the game. Someone involved with developing the game assumes to much will be understood by a new gamer simply because they have grown up with the game and it is obvious to them.


And of course, then the veterans would be having a fit because the manual was too shallow. We followed the EiA-EiH rules as closely as we possibly could for that reason. Anyone not familiar with those rules would have busted a nut reading them for the first time too and those of us that have stood by EiA after all these years are still rereading them.

For new players: Play and read – take small steps – you’ll get the hang of it.

Enjoy it!

Richard



tgb -> RE: The Manual (12/11/2007 12:40:31 AM)

I read through the manual 3 times, the first open in my lap while playing along in each phase, concentrating on rules and mechanics and not worrying about strategy.

Yesterday afternoon I sat outside with a nice cigar and a nice gin & tonic and re-read the manual looking for any little points I may have overlooked.

I'm still discovering little things. Just now I finally figured out that a corps with, say, 0/12M and 0/12I doesn't mean you can fill it with 12 each, but a TOTAL of 12 militia and infantry.

I may have to put more thought into how I fill my corps in the future.[:)]



JavaJoe -> RE: The Manual (12/11/2007 12:43:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tgb

I read through the manual 3 times, the first open in my lap while playing along in each phase, concentrating on rules and mechanics and not worrying about strategy.

Yesterday afternoon I sat outside with a nice cigar and a nice gin & tonic and re-read the manual looking for any little points I may have overlooked.

I'm still discovering little things. Just now I finally figured out that a corps with, say, 0/12M and 0/12I doesn't mean you can fill it with 12 each, but a TOTAL of 12 militia and infantry.

I may have to put more thought into how I fill my corps in the future.[:)]



Take as much care filling your corps as you do your gin and tonic!

Militia = tonic
Infantry = Gin



zaquex -> RE: The Manual (12/11/2007 1:21:21 AM)

I think the problem is that the documentation is mainly a rule book its something necessary to understand the mechanics of the game and for that it works and would be sufficient for a board game. But this is a computer game with a not completly intuitive GUI so whats needed the most is a manual for the actual GUI.

What i miss that came with the boardgame is a printable chart/sequence of play card that list the order of play and gives a very brief overview of what happens in each phase these cards should be no more than two or three dubblesided A4 pages (If I recall right it was 2 pages in the board game). I think having this information readily available, giving an easy overview would help new players alot.


Regards

Zaq



Grognot -> RE: The Manual (12/11/2007 1:42:50 AM)

Heh.  If memory serves, the AH version of EiA received a 9 on AH's 10-point complexity scale (with the 10'ers including 'The Longest Day', which is apparently a multi-board game dealing with the Allied invasion of Normandy, and 'Flat Top', which is a Pacific carrier-war game).  It's a complicated game.

Even so, EiANW seems to have dropped certain rules

(off the top of my head...
- game seems to go until somebody hits 100% VP -- isn't it supposed to stop with Dec 1815?
- leaders arrive with a schedule, but they don't change stats (Napoleon has two stat drops, IIRC... and I seem to recall dominance changing things around, too) or loyalties (Bernadotte to Sweden!)
- Kingdom of Italy is not presently an option.

There may be others -- going by memory here, not by comparing the rulebooks.
)



hjaco -> RE: The Manual (12/11/2007 2:00:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zaquex

What i miss that came with the boardgame is a printable chart/sequence of play card that list the order of play and gives a very brief overview of what happens in each phase these cards should be no more than two or three dubblesided A4 pages (If I recall right it was 2 pages in the board game). I think having this information readily available, giving an easy overview would help new players alot.



And quite helpful to all players I may add.

My main irritation with the manual (and others from Matrix) is that it its only available as PDF so finding passages and tables and copying these to say excel and adjust/create playing aids to your own preferences has to be done quite from the bottom. Alternatively tables should be built into the game itself.



jjax -> RE: The Manual (12/11/2007 2:05:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hjaco



And quite helpful to all players I may add.

My main irritation with the manual (and others from Matrix) is that it its only available as PDF so finding passages and tables and copying these to say excel and adjust/create playing aids to your own preferences has to be done quite from the bottom. Alternatively tables should be built into the game itself.



If there not there already....It would be a great idea to have tables as part of the in-game documentation. I hate searching for those things.

Mabey in a patch?



James Ward -> RE: The Manual (12/11/2007 2:18:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Monadman


quote:

ORIGINAL: James Ward

I haven't seen this manual but I'm convinced that manuals should be written by someone who has a basic understanding of how the game PLAYS but who is not deeply involved with creating the game. Someone involved with developing the game assumes to much will be understood by a new gamer simply because they have grown up with the game and it is obvious to them.


And of course, then the veterans would be having a fit because the manual was too shallow. We followed the EiA-EiH rules as closely as we possibly could for that reason. Anyone not familiar with those rules would have busted a nut reading them for the first time too and those of us that have stood by EiA after all these years are still rereading them.

For new players: Play and read – take small steps – you’ll get the hang of it.

Enjoy it!

Richard



Veterans don't need a manual [:)]

I just think that whoever writes most manuals theses days lose track of the fact that the average gamer or the NEW gamer isn't nearly as familiar with the game as someone who helped bring the game out.

I used to build industrial equipment and write the operating instructions for it. The final documentation 'test' was to get a secretary to come out and start, stop and diagnose the system using the manual we were including. We never had an operating question in 10 years!



JavaJoe -> RE: The Manual (12/11/2007 3:04:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: James Ward


quote:

ORIGINAL: Monadman


quote:

ORIGINAL: James Ward

I haven't seen this manual but I'm convinced that manuals should be written by someone who has a basic understanding of how the game PLAYS but who is not deeply involved with creating the game. Someone involved with developing the game assumes to much will be understood by a new gamer simply because they have grown up with the game and it is obvious to them.


And of course, then the veterans would be having a fit because the manual was too shallow. We followed the EiA-EiH rules as closely as we possibly could for that reason. Anyone not familiar with those rules would have busted a nut reading them for the first time too and those of us that have stood by EiA after all these years are still rereading them.

For new players: Play and read – take small steps – you’ll get the hang of it.

Enjoy it!

Richard



Veterans don't need a manual [:)]

I just think that whoever writes most manuals theses days lose track of the fact that the average gamer or the NEW gamer isn't nearly as familiar with the game as someone who helped bring the game out.

I used to build industrial equipment and write the operating instructions for it. The final documentation 'test' was to get a secretary to come out and start, stop and diagnose the system using the manual we were including. We never had an operating question in 10 years!



yeah...and I'm sure it was always the secretary with the short skirt...

Oh Debbie...dear can you come here and help us "test out" the new documentation? Yes hun, the first sentace does say to take off your shirt...[X(]



James Ward -> RE: The Manual (12/11/2007 4:18:50 AM)

Well who would you ask if there was a switch under the machne that needed to be checked ...............[;)]



New York Jets -> RE: The Manual (12/11/2007 6:52:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

I find this a common problem, and not solely a Matrix issue (I know you weren't suggesting that anyway.



Yeah, the manual for AACW is not very good either.



fvianello -> RE: The Manual (12/11/2007 11:05:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jjax

If there not there already....It would be a great idea to have tables as part of the in-game documentation. I hate searching for those things.

Mabey in a patch?


The tables are already in the online documentation. The popup tip on the "?" button explains you that....

- if you right click the "?" button, the online help will show the tables used during that phase
- if you left click the "?" button, the online help will show the rules used during that phase



SamuraiProgrmmr -> RE: The Manual (12/12/2007 7:02:53 PM)

(none of this is a complaint -- mostly it is my opinions on what works and what doesn't)


I would like to applaud the possibility of a manual in a wiki format.  I have played two games in the past where there was a user created wiki to supplement the documentation.

The first was Sid Meier's Railroads.  The manual was actually pretty complete and the WIKI had more to do with User Mods than with the actual game.  However, there were a couple of sections that explained some difficult points with the user interface with screenshots and detailed explainations of what could go wrong if you were not carefule.

The second was Silent Hunter 3.  The manual was complete, as far as it went, but there was virtually no information on what to expect when you did something.  Going to the WIKI helped immensely in situations where you weren't sure if what you wanted to do was actually happening (and was slow due to intentional modeling of reality) or whether the command was being prevented from being exectued (due to intentional modeling of reality).

I am a software developer myself and understand the tightrope that documentation writers walk.  On the one hand if you put everything in the manual, readers will give up because they are tired of reading the 'obvious'.  On the other hand, if you skip the 'obvious', you run the risk of leaving something out that is obvious to you but that the user hasn't realized yet.

The great part about a WIKI is that it will end up being customized to the the types of information that the new user will not understand.  Questions can be generated in the forum and answered in the WIKI.

The idea of having a 'documentation' beta test near release is interesting.  Add a new tier of fresh, newbie beta testers after the game is basically ready and give them the manual.  Have them point out the places where the manual is lacking.  Then shore it up!

I haven't actually played a turn yet because Real Life (TM) is in the way.  However, I have spent a little time reading the manual.  One thing I would do differently is to have an overview section that gives the user enough orientation to be able to assimilate the details as they are encountered.  (If that is there, I just haven't seen it yet).

Tutorials and AARs are also very useful for new players to get a feel for what to do just to get along.  For example, I know very little about the Napoleanic era except that Napolean was a big-time bada$$ and something bad happened at Waterloo.  I am hoping that playing this game will give me a better grasp of a part of history that I have not bothered with until now.




Ted1066 -> RE: The Manual (12/12/2007 8:11:22 PM)

Hey JJAX,

The tables are in the online manual. Right-click the question mark for the online manual and you get the tables - I found nearly all the tables from the boardgame in there. Also, even if you just bring up the regular online manual, the tables are near the end of it, before the leader bios.

Ted



dauphan129 -> RE: The Manual (12/12/2007 9:05:00 PM)

Ha! If you guys think the Game Manual is hard to read you should try reading the rules to the actual board game. They had rules all over the place. You would read about something in section 6.6.5 but then in section 7.7.2 there would be an exception to the rule in 6.6.5 and only half of these blurbs were referenced. I think my group played the board game for about 6 years before we came close to getting the rules right. Then when we started getting this version we discovered we were not playing a few things correctly still[:'(]

Why don't one of you Wikki savy folks set up a Wikki and link it from the forum, if that is ok with the Matrix folks[&o]? Maybe they would be so kind as to make the link a sticky with some sort of "Matrix is not responsible for content" disclaimer or even a link on the webpage. I bet though that we get a better and better manual as scenarios and additional rules (like new political combinations) get added. This is version 1.0 and it is VERY TRUE to the boardgame over all. It is sad alot of folks who get this did not play the boardgame and are discovering that the manual is not perfect but as I said it is true to the board game.

Oh and Krasny, Es salaam aleikom.



James Ward -> RE: The Manual (12/12/2007 9:16:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dauphan129

Ha! If you guys think the Game Manual is hard to read you should try reading the rules to the actual board game. They had rules all over the place. You would read about something in section 6.6.5 but then in section 7.7.2 there would be an exception to the rule in 6.6.5 and only half of these blurbs were referenced. I think my group played the board game for about 6 years before we came close to getting the rules right. Then when we started getting this version we discovered we were not playing a few things correctly still[:'(]


And then some new guys joins and brings in the Eratta sheets! [:)]

We used to call it Empires in Arguments but it is still the best multiplayer game I ever played [:D]



Jimmer -> RE: The Manual (12/12/2007 9:16:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dauphan129

Why don't one of you Wikki savy folks set up a Wikki and link it from the forum, if that is ok with the Matrix folks[&o]? Maybe they would be so kind as to make the link a sticky with some sort of "Matrix is not responsible for content" disclaimer or even a link on the webpage. I bet though that we get a better and better manual as scenarios and additional rules (like new political combinations) get added. This is version 1.0 and it is VERY TRUE to the boardgame over all. It is sad alot of folks who get this did not play the boardgame and are discovering that the manual is not perfect but as I said it is true to the board game.

Oh and Krasny, Es salaam aleikom.

If someone sets this up, I will definitely help with the content. But, I don't know the first thing about setting up a WIKI (which is sad for a computer professional). Perhaps I need to learn.



Krasny -> RE: The Manual (12/12/2007 9:32:19 PM)

shalom dauphan!

i recently saw a video tutorial for the paradox game crusader kings (don't get me started on that game) on youtube

mayhap some kindly genius could make one for EiA?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7vXXKXQSSU




Murat -> RE: The Manual (12/12/2007 10:32:51 PM)

Do NOT do it like that guy. the whole tutorial ends because he made like 10 playing errors during it and lost the game.



zaquex -> RE: The Manual (12/13/2007 1:16:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ted1066

Hey JJAX,

The tables are in the online manual. Right-click the question mark for the online manual and you get the tables - I found nearly all the tables from the boardgame in there. Also, even if you just bring up the regular online manual, the tables are near the end of it, before the leader bios.

Ted


Its right there is a manual in game but sadly its a pain to use, imo it needs to be either better referenced or there need to be a short version. What I mostly want is a "order of play and tables" in a very compressed form - this will help new players not to forget things and do stuff in the correct order. If they are unsecure about any specific rule they should still consult the manual.

Another thing that would be helpfull is the national cards the boardgame comes with that have an overview of each powers corps etc. It would be very helpful in learning the differences and strenght between the different countries armies without having to start up the game with every power and therefore alow new players to more easily get in to the game.



therockyfroggy -> RE: The Manual (12/13/2007 2:26:08 AM)

I don't know if I'm insane since I really don't have the time, but on top of reading and trying to understand this game, I'm also reading and trying to understand Crusader Kings, Forge of Freedom, and the new Harpoon release. I keep getting into one manual and thinking about a different one. Thankfully, the expansion for WITP was announced cause I was about to buy that but now will just wait until then.....hopefully I can decipher these other games by then.




Krasny -> RE: The Manual (12/13/2007 1:22:54 PM)

quote:

Do NOT do it like that guy. the whole tutorial ends because he made like 10 playing errors during it and lost the game.


his first glaring error was to say one of the three religions in the game was protestantism

but on the whole the video tutorial format works well



Cheesehead -> RE: The Manual (12/14/2007 4:11:07 PM)

Is it possible to download the board game rules? I looked on the a-d-g website and saw downloadable rules for WiF, but not for EiA?? Would it help to understand the board game before you tackle the computer version? I haven't purchased the game yet as I'm too busy playing WiF. I will buy it eventually, but as I've never played the board game I would like to know that I can learn the computer version without too much frustration.

Thanks

John



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