88 Flak Revisited (Full Version)

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Charles22 -> 88 Flak Revisited (9/15/2000 8:11:00 PM)

I've noticed that due to the "suggestion" that the 88s took a long time to use the other side of their DP role, the gun has gone against the history of SP and is now split into two roles. In other words, you cannot fight tanks and aircraft with the same gun. My theory is that it wasn't so difficult to set them up, certainly it could be switched several times within the timespan of the scope of these battles. As well, I've noticed none of the other large caliber AA guns have been given similar treatment, and this should be considered; notably the Russian 76 and 85mm AAs, as well as the American 90. I'm not sure about the other nations, but certainly the rule should operate across the board and not single out the Germans. Also, to back my theory, I'm looking into my books and stuff online to establish that indeed the 88 was much more flexible between the roles (and probablt the other large caliber flaks of other nations) than we've been led to believe. My books only mentioned among other things that the 88 could fire between 15-20 rounds a minute. Does the arte of fire reflect this high rate? I don't know. In any case the books have turned up no data on the speed of converting from a flak mount to anti-tank role, nor vice-versa, but I have found this little tidbit from a web search, which might lay this to rest, but I will continue to see what I can find regardless; it follows, thank you: "Posted by Ricky Law on September 11, 1998 at 14:39:34: The 88-mm Flak is a versatile and probably most famous piece of artillery in World War II. Designed as an anti-aircarft gun, it was first used against tanks at Arras in France, where General Rommel was surprised by a British armored attack consisting of Matlida Mk I's and II's. Rommel ordered his Flak Regiment to depress their guns and fire at the tanks (C22 here - emphasis added by me. Doesn't that sound like a pretty quick role switch for the 88, judging by how we know Arras came down?). The British tanks were destroyed and the Flak guns saved the day. My questions is: The 88-Flak was designed for use against aircarft and used only high-explosive shells, can anyone tell me where did those armor-piercing shells come from in summer 1940? This dilemma has troubled me for a long time. Any suggestions would be appreciated." This was found at http://www.uwm.edu/~jpipes/wwwboard/messagesnew1/1129.html [This message has been edited by Charles22 (edited September 15, 2000).]



Charles22 -> (9/15/2000 8:26:00 PM)

It would seem likely that the 15-20 rounds fired per minute was the anti-air role, and not that it fired that rate in both roles. I "believe" I've seen the 88 loaded with autoloaders in the AA role, but I don't recall seeing the AT role ever given anything but manual feed.



Charles22 -> (9/15/2000 8:46:00 PM)

Ah I now have more data: "I am told that a well practiced crew could dismount a gun and be ready to fire in 20 seconds and remount the gun for traveling in less than a minute." (me again) Since it could be remounted in a minute, can we assume the roles could be switched as quickly? Probably. I got that from: http://members.tripod.com/George_Parada/88mm.htm (I can't get the hyperlink to work - sorry) Thanks Oh brother, now it works. Anyway, there it is. [This message has been edited by Charles22 (edited September 15, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Charles22 (edited September 15, 2000).]



Nikademus -> (9/15/2000 8:52:00 PM)

the main motivation behind it was due to the tactic of opposing players sending in planes to cause the (sometimes) craftily hidden 88mm guns to give away their positions so that they could be immediately surpressed. though useful against aircraft, few players (if any) buy 88mm flak guns to shoot at aircraft. There are far cheaper alternatives. If one is playing an early war scenerio, those flak guns are far far more invaluable vs some of the heavy AFV's the German player is forced to face.



Charles22 -> (9/15/2000 9:44:00 PM)

Nikademus: Were you the one wanting the adjustment? I don't doubt what you say, however, I recall a thread where the very subject of it's supposed inability to switch roles within a reasonable timeframe was the gist of a complaint against the DP role in the game. If the switch was made to accomodate what you're talking about, though I doubt they thought of this, perhaps op fire should be implemented against aircraft as well. As a campaigner, myself, I don't see the AI reacting to their having seen it by aircraft forays, and bombarding in response and I understand how head-to-head would be different. Even so, I think instead of chopping the 88 up (and other heavy AAs) the player should recognise that when it fires against aircraft, that they should be prepared to move the piece immediately. Just get the prime mover adjacent to it from the start. I'm always buying prime movers to the tune of at least half of the 88s for transport, even in defense, just due to the fact that the past proved that once it opened up any, not necessarily the AA role, that they met with counterfire in various forms. Playing as Gerry, campaigning, at least early on, the player doesn't have to worry too much about aircraft being the means of spotting the gun, thereby forcing it's movement. A gun that never fires is worthless, and considering it's impact, it's pretty close to foolish not to expect that when it fires, the enemy will do all to nail it. Mobility is the answer. Actually, if you idea is the reason there's been a splitting of the roles, then we should be given the choice of having a dual- purpose model, a AA model, and a At model. So, if you don't mind it firing and being spotted by a/c, to keep the advantage of how it was actually used, you can. You'll notice that as things stand the 88 AA unit has no AT ammo, while the AT model has both HE and AT. Is it possible that the AT model can actually fire at a/c as well because it has HE ammo. My guess is that it's being classified as an AT gun, has removed the possibility of the HE being used against a/c. Don't you remember that someone was also complaining about how lame it was to allow the 88 to fire in the AA role, because supposedly all these a/c are fighting below 1,000 ft. (not the level bombers I would assume)?



Nikademus -> (9/15/2000 10:01:00 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charles22: [B]Nikademus: Were you the one wanting the adjustment? I don't doubt what you say, however, I recall a thread where the very subject of it's supposed inability to switch roles within a reasonable timeframe was the gist of a complaint against the DP role in the game. If the switch was made to accomodate what you're talking about, though I doubt they thought of this, perhaps op fire should be implemented against aircraft as well. No, i had'nt suggested it. I came across the reference during one of the SP:WWII upgrades from waaaay back. Players had been complaining about the 'tactic' of forcing 88's to give themselves away with aircraft sweeps and it was later implemented and "justified" historically by the reference that the FlaK gun would have to be recalibrated to fire accurately against high angle targets vs ground targets. This was well before WAW came out and well before SP:WWII had vastly increased the average number of turns per scenerio so there was validity to it then. Now with the battles being much longer your argument has a point. I suppose the M. gang could implement though i think it would open a can of worms in the process for as you said, such a feature would have to be implemented for other weapons as well as the 88mm.



Paul Vebber -> (9/15/2000 10:30:00 PM)

We tried to give players a choice. The "AT" version 88 will not fire at aircraft and has a good supply of AP ammo. The "AA" version will fire at both tanks and aircraft, but only has 10 rounds of AP. Tje high rate of fre was in FLAK mode essentially firing a pattern up itn to the air to create a wall of lead. Aimed fire at a vehicle would be much slower. Teh other countries were not treated this way because their weapons were not used in teh mann the 88 was they typically did not have AP ammo very large supply or where not used in strict AT roles like the 88. A doctrine issue like infantry riding on tanks into battle. So as it stand - you get to choose - AT only, or dual role - and ge the limitations inherantwith the choice. [This message has been edited by Paul Vebber (edited September 15, 2000).]



Charles22 -> (9/15/2000 11:06:00 PM)

Either I have corrupt data or you are wrong Paul. The AA only gun has 60 rounds of HE, NO AP. The AT gun has 40 HE and 20 AP (I believe this was the origianl ratio on the DP gun.). Couldn't we just have the old DP gun (40 HE, 20 AP), along with a pure AT gun for those that are worried about a/c recon? I would mention a pure AA 88 (as the current 60 HE gun is, or to be more acccurate, it's not anti-tank DP anyway [look out infantry!]), but I can't see why anyone would pick the 88 for a pure AA role (given the expense). I would probably pick 2 or more 20 or 37mm mounts to one 88. Also, if we're regulated to no AP shot on the AA, or the low amount of ten, then shouldn't we make the AT version more AT then 20 rounds???? From what little I noticed on my skimming here today, it would seem as though the Dp rounds were 20 HE and 20 AP, but that's certainly not conclusive. So, if it's unfair to give a gun with 20 AP rounds, 20 AP rounds, should we butcher the King Tiger ammo as well? The Germans carried 20 rounds, because they were more inclined to use it that way. Do people want to play with something approaching the strengths/weaknesses of various nations, or do they want to just make their side win? We are having OOBs dictated by people ridiculously abusing great units. I don't know why anyone would want to play head-to-head with such people anyway. BTW, good work on the Polish 76mm DP AA, to establish it from the humongous range it once had. Thanks.



Schrullenhaft -> (9/16/2000 12:35:00 AM)

Just to add some non-sensical jibberish to the conversation.... I believe that the original Flak rounds for the 88 were specially fuzed for the anti-air role. They had an altitude-oriented timer that was geared towards shooting down larger, high-flying aircraft. I don't think the Flak 88 would perform well in the role of defending against the low-level fighter-bombers that are seen in SPWAW. This is where the 20mm & 37mm Flak guns shined. Modelling the AA abilities of the 88 Flak would necessitate a third ammo type for true accuracy (I'm guessing here since I'm not familiar with the 88's HE ammo), which I'm not really requesting here. But I believe that is one of the facts that makes it harder to justify the quick switch to the AA role of the 88. Switching roles within a turn to AA is just a little too quick (since the team would have to setup the equipment and be prepared for AA action). It's not completely in the realm of SPWAW to designate the loadout of a weapon to assign it to a particular role. So I believe the current choice is the most accurate within the limitations of the SPWAW system. I don't have any references on this (all my knowledge on this is second hand) and I'm fairly ignorant on the specifics of the ammo used by all the combantants in WW2. So what I've said here may not merit a whole lot of consideration. As I continue to edit this... Although OOB work for SPWAW is a huge task, it would be nice for even-handedness (i.e. - American 90, etc.) in applying such changes, if there's room in the OOB for this. [This message has been edited by Schrullenhaft (edited September 15, 2000).]



Charles22 -> (9/16/2000 1:00:00 AM)

Schrullenhaft: Yes, there probably is a problem with the low flying stuff, however, there's plenty of level-bombers in this game as well. Perhaps the only way to be accurate would be to treat the a/c and flak to a dose of BTR (Bombing the Reich), where you would operate both a/c and flak off of altitudes. The 88 and 128 AAs (if they were in the game) would cash in on the level bombers, while the 20/37mm AAs would cash in up to, what, 6500 ft. or 13500? On the converse, it's also bogus for the infantry to be shooting AA at level bombers (who wouldn't conveniently cruise down to low altitude very frequently).



Paul Vebber -> (9/16/2000 1:02:00 AM)

Wouldn't be the first time Charles:-) I don't have the full game here - but I thought I have the final version 4 oobs and it shows the AT version having 20 HE and 40 AP and classed a non-flak gun. The AA version has 50 HE and 10 AP and is classed a Flak unit. Sounds like you have teh version 3 OOBs - did you use the patch and have nested directories? Something might have gotten hosed up -trouble with staying up till 2am - I'll check at home tonight. But the intent is to have them supplied with ammo that way and if its not in the version 4 that shipped - it will be in the patch. Yes the 88 should only be effective against level bombers - but there no real way to distinguish that. [This message has been edited by Paul Vebber (edited September 15, 2000).]



Charles22 -> (9/16/2000 1:23:00 AM)

Paul: I know what you mean, the "Tiger should only have wimpy 100mm frontal turret armor" comes to mind. I must say, I've never purchased the 88 AA (in the current form), but I could swear the purchase (in campaign) screen said 60 HE, 0 AP. Perhaps it's the Russian 85 that is 50/10 on ammo. Thanks. When I downloaded, I started like 6 am (CST) on that first saturday. I believe it had been available since 1 am (CST). It definitely said 4.0 on the downlaod screen though. Oh, also, I don't know of any nesting. I let the program do the installs, same as the prior versions. My sounds are working and everything. [This message has been edited by Charles22 (edited September 15, 2000).]



Paul Vebber -> (9/16/2000 1:34:00 AM)

hehe even CM 's most recent patch rasied the Tiges front turret armor [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] I'll check it out tonight!



McGib -> (9/16/2000 4:26:00 AM)

Paul, I just alt-tabed out of SP v4 and the AA version in the purchase screen shows 60he and 0 ap. The AT version shows 20ap and 40he. And to add my two cents into this, I've just finished reading a book written by a retired German Colonel who talks about a 88 flak battery that he ordered to engage british tanks just after D-day. He makes no mention of re-calabrating the guns or anything about ammo concerns. He just points a pistol into the face of the captain commanding the battery and orders him to engage British tanks that will shortly be approaching his postion. He gives no time frame from his order to the time the Brit tanks arrived however. The book is "Panzer Commander" by Colonel Hans Von Luck. Its really quite good. ------------------ McGib Ready Aye Ready



Ballan -> (9/16/2000 6:48:00 AM)

Actually the first use of the 88mm in the anti-tank role was in Spain during the civil war, although it is generally argued that it was Rommel that perfected the role. Crews were trained in both roles and iron sights fitted rather early in the war, although I cant give you an exact date. It was estimated that 15,000 rounds of 88mm AA were fired for every plane brought down, as a AT gun however it was extremenly effective, I have one photo of one gun with at least 27 kill rings on the barrel



Bonzo -> (9/16/2000 7:08:00 AM)

What a great topic [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] To add my 2 cents, I am currently reading Ian Hogg's "Tank Killing" and, while he doesn't spend a lot of space on any issue, he does say that the first use of the 88 FlaK 18 AA gun against armour was by the Condor Legion in Spain (for the same reasons as Rommel - Arras, 21 may, 1940). To quote the author - "In that affair they fired high-explosive shells, since that was what AA guns always fired. But the incident was reported home and considered, and as a result the 88mm gun was allocated a secondary anti-tank tasking which resulted in the introduction of proper direct fire sights and an AP shell. It was this ammo that came out of the lockers on 21 May 1940 and stopped the Matildas." Of course, in early 1942, due to shortages of tungsten, Germany reserved this metal for making machine tools. Pretty much all the AP shot made henceforth was conventional (ie heat treated steel or perhaps capped shot) and penetration performance was reduced. I have read a number of Mr Hogg's books, and find that while the do not go into as great of depth as many other sources, they are a good read, generally cover a broad topic and contain a fair number of "nuggets". Bonzo ------------------ Robert (Bonzo) Lindsay, Coordinator 28th (North-west) Battalion Headquarters http://dreadnaught.home.icq.com [email]nwbattalion@icqmail.com[/email]



Charles22 -> (9/16/2000 8:47:00 AM)

McGib: Yeah I have the very book, a good one. I believe, that actually you and I are both wrong regarding the 88 AT abberation. I got the ammo amounts mixed up, while you got their places mixed up. One the upgrade screen, the total to the left is HE, and AP to the right. So when you say 20AP and 40HE, it's actually 20HE and 40AP. We were correct about the AA one though (60HE, 0AP). Yes, the software says V4.0 in a number of places. Also, I was right about the Russian 85AA which has 50HE, 10AP, which I thought might be where Paul got the 50/10 figure.



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