Penetration Values

Penetration Values (Full Version)

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Sirmel -> Penetration Values (9/16/2000 7:54:00 AM)
Today I started getting on at the eatern front but I have some questions concerning the pen values?? I have a pkpfw-Ivf went up against a B7 now I had a one time 3 of my tanks within 3 hexs of sd tank I wasted all ammo on this 1 tank [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/frown.gif[/img] and no dmg now I know that the germans were very good at shooting some of the best optics at the time but this began to bother me. Also I noticed how easy it was for a B 7 to knock out my tanks 10-13 hexes away? Now with a 75 l24 gun aaand with the weak armour of the B& something isnt rite here also I had a very hard time of Knocking out a zis 30 ?? so if anyone out there can explain to me that the pen values r rite with this scenario I would appreicate it [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Thxs

Bonzo -> (9/16/2000 8:02:00 AM)
I don't know if this is true in your case, but... I recall a post a little while ago By Paul Vebber about firing from close range, at tanks with steeply sloping armour when on a slope. The gist was that fire from close, from below, at sloped armour = very low penetration & very high ricochet probability. The suggeestion was to not engage from so close. I hope that this is of some help (if not now, later [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] Bonzo ------------------ Robert (Bonzo) Lindsay, Coordinator 28th (North-west) Battalion Headquarters http://dreadnaught.home.icq.com [email]nwbattalion@icqmail.com[/email]

Nikademus -> (9/16/2000 9:09:00 AM)
I'm not so sure there is'nt something amiss but dont have enough test cases to list in on the bug thread. I have had a similarily frustrating situation in my first scenerio. Only this time it could'nt be blamed on a elevation difference. (actually did have one in the first turn, a 13 hex near perpendicular by an 88 but the T-34 was on a hill so i could see how the shell might have skidded off) Got taken in the flank by a single T-34 but was fortunately able to surpress the hell out of it. So how to deal with this mennace? Had two Tigers nearby, to ensure a quick kill i closed the first to point blank range, risking a OP shot by the 34 which missed (whew) Given the high exp of the unit i still had 5 shots at 50 yards (1 hex) on a perfect perpendicular angle (nose to nose in other words) First Tiger, 4 hits out of 5. all ricoshays [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/eek.gif[/img] ok (grumble grumble) i figure thats one lucky T-34. So in comes the 2nd Tiger. Same situation, touching noses, 1 hex 5 shots avail. 3 out of 5 hit home this time. **again, all 3 ricoshay off the front turret and hull of the 34 and now i'm ready to spit nails. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/mad.gif[/img] no elevation differences to blame this time, and even accounting for the 10 degree random element in there the odds of a single T-34 causing 7 point blank 50 yard 88mm's at a near 0 angle to ricoshay are too high to count. oh and to cap it off next turn? T-34 retreats (of course) a third Tiger takes it under fire at 5 hexes, this time on the flank at a close to perpendicular angle....first shot, first kill. go figure. Isolated incident? not sure yet. Was'nt going to mention it till i'd set up some test scenerios but this thread caught my eye. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/confused.gif[/img] [This message has been edited by Nikademus (edited September 15, 2000).]

Paul Vebber -> (9/16/2000 9:42:00 AM)
The hex grid causes some strange things to happen sometimes at 1 hex range.Which really isn't that bad as at very close range the relative speed across the LOS is very high so the target is hard to engage. We have improved this in the the patch...

Sirmel -> (9/16/2000 9:47:00 AM)
Thxs for the reply guys [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] I took into account of elevation,I would like to know why does my tank always aim at the Hull or turret when I am taking a rear or side shot. the slop on the b7 is none essential especially when u r per. to the tank 3 or 1 hex away? You should be able to pen these kinda of tanks fairly easy, but what bothers me aswell the German crews were very good at what they do and thats shoot, so why is it they always aim for the turret or hull?when infact they r shooting from the side or rear? but what has also bothers me,is a zis 30- 2 of my Ivf's could not dmg it?? It took 2 shots from my 88 using HE to destroy it. Also it seemed fairly easy for a B7 to take my Ivf out at 10-13 hexes with a 45mm gun a gun if I am correct does not have the punch to knock out a Ivf at that range/ Well anyway I hope there can be some good discussion here and I am sure that there is an issue here?? I have read where 1 tiger had taken out 50 T34-85's during a battle it may have been at Kursk, may have to forgive me but my old memory may fail me at times.

Paul Vebber -> (9/16/2000 10:25:00 AM)
The turret and hull are the two main pieces of the tank - each has a front, side and rear. The Russian 45mm certainly does have the "oomph" to take out a MkIV! THe aspect angle has a lot to do with the penetration value - the manual explains a lot of the guts of the armor system. It has its rough edges but I'll put it up against any other games system... gamers are used to "conventional" armor systems where any penetration value greater than the armor value ios a "kill" It just doesn't work that way in reality. THE game is still a far cry from "reality" but it accounts of a lot things most games ignore!

Sirmel -> (9/16/2000 1:48:00 PM)
THE game is still a far cry from "reality" but it accounts of a lot things most games ignore! I couldnt agree with u more Paul, Im just saying even with the l24 gun the pen value is still enough at 1500m to take out that b7 and I question the B7 optics in this case aswell, I realize that the 45l46 gun on the tank is better than the l24, m/v 1000m/s v 500 m/s but the germans tank crew where better at gunnery than the russians because of thier optics. One thing I do not know is what does each Hex represent for distance, I have not read the full manual maybe Ill have more time later. I know that the 45mml46 gun has a higher pen value at closer ranges 80mm in fact and then tapers off to 50 at 1000 but the Iv's did have 50mm of armour. as with the B7 having only 22mm should be easy enough for the l/24 to knock out even at 1500m After all that I hope I got the numbers rite [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] and believe me I do enjoy the game I have the orginal [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

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