BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another (Full Version)

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ravinhood -> BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another (1/11/2008 6:43:35 AM)

In an effort to tighten homeland security this is gonna happen Say goodbye to freedom Haha us old farts don't have to do it until 2017.

It's not quite 666 stuff yet (the microchip in your hand or wrist), but, it's getting there. The one thing I like about it though is it should really help find those illegal aliens crossing the border. But, I'm still opposed to anything that just makes us yet another number in the system.



Ursa MAior -> RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another (1/11/2008 7:08:46 AM)

"the only way to make sure an ID is safe is to check it against secure government data"

"By 2014, anyone seeking to board an airplane or enter a federal building would have to present a REAL ID-compliant driver's license, with the notable exception of those more than 50 years old, Homeland Security officials said. "

We have been doing it in Europe since ages. What is the problem?





Sarge -> RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another (1/11/2008 7:25:36 AM)

Never mind ,

To easy , I smell ambush [sm=00000734.gif]










jk UM [;)]



Poolmick -> RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another (1/11/2008 7:33:33 AM)

Boy I can hardly wait to see the line at the DMV when this goes into effect..............



bradfordkay -> RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another (1/11/2008 7:57:18 AM)

Now I am glad that I'll be over 50 in 2014...[;)]

Oh crap.. the article says that even us old f**ts will have to have one by 2017...

Okay, they are not putting in the microchip so it won't be so bad.



diddlygrl -> RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another (1/11/2008 8:10:22 AM)

``We worked very closely with the states in terms of developing a plan that I think will be inexpensive, reasonable to implement and produce the results,'' he said. ``This is a win-win. "

When someone in the government says this, it is time to be afraid, be Very afraid.



Marauders -> RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another (1/11/2008 10:30:36 AM)

I wonder which company will get the cost-plus no-bid contract to do this with the built in election day high failure rate for African Americans. [;)]

No, ... I am a whitey.

Navin R. Johnson: "The Lord loves a working man, don't trust whitey."



ravinhood -> RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another (1/11/2008 1:01:34 PM)

But the world ends in 2012 anyways so I won't have to worry about getting one at least. I keep asking myself whatever happened to "freedom and liberty"?? What ever happened to being able to be a "private" person if you wanted granted by our constitution?? I don't think our forefathers ever intended for this type of stuff to happen. I personally don't like being numbered or placed in some databank for anyone to look at. We can have a private phone number, but, anyone can get it. lol Ahhh the 19th century that was a time of real freedom and privacy. The 20th and 21st have turned into big brother and 666 is coming. Did you know even what you type on this forum is recorded? Just do a search on your forum name here and they will have it stored for over a year past. lol You just can't hide from BIG BROTHER. Do a google on any of your forum names sometime and notice what neat things popup. Hell, I found one of my ex-girlfriends doing a google on one of her email names. lol You can think you are hiding, but-cher not. ;)



Ursa MAior -> RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another (1/11/2008 3:26:20 PM)

Yohoo RH? Are you serious?
These and much stricter controlls are in place in Europe since decades, yet noone is really complaining about it. Why? Cuz they dont disturb anybody but significantly decrease the chance of illegal penetration. Dont tell me that you could simply just walk in any business building before 9/11! Soon you can enter a fed building only if you show your ID. So what? They register your enty and check against a central database. Again so what? You only have to fear it if you have done sthg illegal, which most of us dont so why are you upset?

So what is your problem?



JudgeDredd -> RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another (1/11/2008 3:39:00 PM)

Well I have a problem with it.



Ursa MAior -> RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another (1/11/2008 3:51:12 PM)

With what? Could you be more precise?



JudgeDredd -> RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another (1/11/2008 3:56:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior
You only have to fear it if you have done sthg illegal, which most of us dont...

With that.

I think it's pretty naive in this day and age to believe that you only have to fear something if you are guilty.

Tell that to the Birmingham 6, or any other person jailed/executed for a crime they did not commit. I'm sure prior to their jail sentence/execution they were not fearful of the security focres/the police/the government/Big Brother/the justice system.



Ursa MAior -> RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another (1/11/2008 4:35:25 PM)

I will be more precise. You have to be nervous if you are guilty or you dont have a good lawyer. [;)]

Pls dont misunderstand me but you have around the same chance to get hit by a car. Both are real but the chances are not that high.



JudgeDredd -> RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another (1/11/2008 4:58:25 PM)

Well, call me sceptical...

If I can lie to my mum (whom I loved dearly) about the change from her shopping because I wanted to buy a sweet, I'm damn sure the leader of a nation can lie to cover his/her ass.

I don't trust Governments one iota.

I'm sure there are good people in there, as I'm sure there are some good lawyers who believe in good will overcome evil...but I am also sure there are some bloody dodgy, rotten apples in there just waiting for their day....just as there are in everyday walks of life.

So the government can spy on you. Keep tabs on you. You try and do the same...just to make sure your government is squeeky clean.

Oh, I'm sorry...it only works one way...this spying lark.

All it takes is for your information to fall into the wrong hands and you are guilty. Did no-one hear about the names/addressesand other personal info that the British Government "mislaid"? My details could well be floating about out there for the wrong person with the right know-how to use at their discretion.

Gee.....I wonder why I am suspicious of governments holding my info? I w0oonder why I don't step right up there and just let them extract all the DNA they want? I'm sure it will be secure...it's the government afterall. [&o]



Mobius -> RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another (1/11/2008 4:59:14 PM)

I don't see any combination of 6s in this.  So how is 666 involved?
It is meant to prevent ID theft and fraud. Also to restrict government access to limited resources to one share per person.  And maybe one vote per person too.

But, Judge Dredd, I agree the government is not very secure and is full of idiots. My state retirement agency mistakenly released my SS# on some brochure they sent out. Rows of real SS#s were printed as a background texture.



JudgeDredd -> RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another (1/11/2008 5:01:18 PM)

And I don't misunderstand you, UM. I used to think excatly the same....why would anyone in the UK be against ID cards if they have nothing to hide?

But time has got the better of me and I don't trust the bastards to keep my information safe...and I certainly don't believe they are incapable of manipulation.



mikul82 -> RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another (1/11/2008 5:33:39 PM)

One also has to keep in mind that here in the USA, even among rare fellow history nerds (most people here seem to have had any possible interest in history purged and destroyed in the public school system that made "history" about as exciting as "statistics"), there seems to be a really disturbing mindset around the idea that, even though there have been countless examples of corrupt goverments/people in governments since the dawn of recorded history, for some reason, "that won't happen here because this is the USA and we have the Constitution!".  No more explanation than that, simply "that doesn't happen in the USA because we have the Constitution!".  The even scarier one is "This or that politician holds the Constituion in high regard, he wouldn't do that!".

I'm more of the mindset that anyone who claims to be a "career politician" is basically just a professional liar, and would happily sell yours or my mother into slavery if it meant they'd gain some extra power/prestiege.  Also, how many people, historically, who had the ambition of reaching a position that granted them a great deal of power, actually gave a damn about their own people?  I don't think the number is too far up there...



bradfordkay -> RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another (1/11/2008 6:21:31 PM)

" you dont have a good lawyer."

Or, more likely, can't afford a good lawyer. In the US, justice is based upon purchasing power. The poor working stiff gets next to none, while the wealthy society icon can thumb his nose at the system...



JAMiAM -> RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another (1/11/2008 6:48:27 PM)

I liked this quote from the article...

quote:

The DHS, which was created in response to the attacks, has created a slogan for REAL ID: ``One driver, one license.''


What the DHS didn't say was that this was only the first part of the slogan. The rest of it goes "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer".



cdbeck -> RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another (1/11/2008 7:22:07 PM)

I agree with JD, giving the government more power over tracking and surveillance is almost always a bad idea. Why? Because those that we place above us to protect us are as human as the criminals and the terrorists, and with a strong belief in a certain ideology, can do terrible things that they consider "right." We all fall prey to the "crazy megalomaniac" view of history: that people like Hitler, Napoleon, or Robespierre were just "crazy guys in it to give themselves more power" and not "human beings who honestly believed that their actions would make a better, safer, pleasant, more free/ordered/efficient/economically viable world." Repressive regimes in history have ALWAYS started from populations tacitly approving of repressive policies in exchange for more security from terrorists/foreigners/criminals/traitors and for a social outcry for order, safety, and an end to confusion. Remember, the police are not there to help you out, they are there to keep you following the law - no matter what the law is (ironically this idea came from Judge Dredd's post [;)]).

And not to bring up religion or be overly pedantic, but the book of Revelations does NOT discuss microchipping, DNA testing, ID cards, or the like. It does discuss branding a vague number (MAYBE in SOME versions 666, depending on translation and year of authorship, 616) on people's hands or foreheads for commerce. I guess one could make a huge leap and say driver's licenses are required for commerce... unless you pay cash. Many Bible scholars think that Revelations is actually discussing contemporary events... possibly Nero.

So... I would be more afraid of Neo-Fascism, Radical Patriotism, or government repression than I would the Anti-Christ. [8D]





Ursa MAior -> RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another (1/11/2008 9:12:43 PM)

You know guys I am a step ahead of you in cynism. You got from idealism to realism, well I am a pessimist. Dont you think that given the current technology a goverment cannot get ANY information on the population it desires? Hell sure it can. It did, it has and, it will. And even in stabile democracies like yours it wont have any serious consequences. That's the way it is.

Heed my advice look at what is going on in Eastern Europe cuz it shos how your country will look like in 10-20 yrs. My country e.g. is a democratical dictatorship at the moment, with an elected parliament running amok (Hitler and 1933 elections someone?), we have a two party system BTW much like US/UK/Germany/France. Civil society has no power, MPs cannot be recalled even serious mistakes have no consequences cuz the press is interested (financially and ideologically as well) in keeping the billionaire turned commies in power etc. Same like 20 yrs ago but this time it is not the russians but the press who helps the commies. Police brutality on the streets etc. Our future is not bright.



mllange -> RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another (1/11/2008 9:59:29 PM)

quote:

they dont disturb anybody but significantly decrease the chance of illegal penetration


Where is the proof that Europe has seen a significant decrease in illegal penetration (sounds kinky anyway) since implementing these kinds of controls or that the illegal penetration rate is any lower for Europe than the U.S. at present?



JudgeDredd -> RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another (1/11/2008 10:31:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior
...Dont you think that given the current technology a goverment cannot get ANY information on the population it desires? Hell sure it can. It did, it has and, it will.

That could well be true, UM, but it doesn't mean I have to open my arms to big brother.

The more I see it, the more I'm convinced this world is heading to some sort of Logans Run type world...the elderly are put to the end of the queue for health care (as already stated on these forums), people are being dictated to about what they should and shouldn't be doing...and I'm not talking about severe law breaking things here...I'm talking about general day to day stuff.

We really are getting into the "nanny" state in the UK.

The problem is, these measures they introduce "for our protection" actually put us in harms way should the information get out.

As I said, I was once a "why don't they take peoples DNA at birth, then there would be very few unsolved crimes", but now, I do not trust them one iota with my identification.

If they want to protect me, send the people who come into this country illigitimately back to where they came from. I open my arms to any one who wants to come into my country and work and live amongst us, not create their own little community (and that goes for brits abroad...they should mingle, not create their own little britain).

If they want to protect me, keep the murderers, rapists and pheadophiles in jail or, better still, kill the bastards - lets see how many of them re-offend then.

If they want to protect me, adopt foreign policies that work and help other countries, not oppress them.

If they want to protect me, let the police target the real criminals (lawyers and the like - jk) rather than Joe in the flat above who downloads music because he can't afford to buy it.

If they want to protect me, don't target me.

I do not want my phone calls monitored. I do not want my text messages monitored. I do not want my email monitored. I do not want what I watch on TV monitored. I do not want my internet activity monitored. I do not want big brother to install cameras in my house "for my safety". I do not want my mail sensored. I do not want propaganda thrown down my throat. I do not want the government to be my baby sitter.



Reiryc -> RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another (1/11/2008 11:08:29 PM)

Dang judge... you almost sound conservative for a change...  [sm=happy0029.gif]

Here are some words of wisdom that unfortunately we no longer heed here in the US because the protection is for our own good or worse, "it's for the children."



"As a man is said to have a right to his property, he may be equally said to have a property in his rights. Where an excess of power prevails, property of no sort is duly respected. No man is safe in his opinions, his person, his faculties, or his possessions."-- James Madison

"It will be of little avail to the people that the laws are made by men of their own choice, if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood; if they be repealed or revised before they are promulgated, or undergo such incessant changes that no man who knows what the law is today can guess what is will be tomorrow."-- James Madison

"The issue today is the same as it has been throughout all history, whether man shall be allowed to govern himself or be ruled by a small elite."-- Thomas Jefferson

"There are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations."-- James Madison

"We must confine ourselves to the powers described in the Constitution, and the moment we pass it, we take an arbitrary stride towards a despotic Government."-- James Jackson

"All men having power ought to be distrusted to a certain degree."-- James Madison

"We still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping at the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised to furnish new pretenses for revenue and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without a tribute."-- Thomas Paine

"It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there is no distinctly native American criminal class except Congress."-- Mark Twain

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."-- Thomas Paine






JudgeDredd -> RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another (1/12/2008 12:17:39 AM)

Well, I know I've been labelled a lefty and a liberal in the past, but tbh, I don't belong or fit any of the "categories"....I believe in what I believe in...some of those views appera left of centre, some of them appear right of centre and some are just in the middle....that is who I am. [:D]



JudgeDredd -> RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another (1/12/2008 12:22:35 AM)

Meant to say, some good quotes there...although I don't have a scoobie what a couple of em mean!



Twotribes -> RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another (1/12/2008 12:46:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

Yohoo RH? Are you serious?
These and much stricter controlls are in place in Europe since decades, yet noone is really complaining about it. Why? Cuz they dont disturb anybody but significantly decrease the chance of illegal penetration. Dont tell me that you could simply just walk in any business building before 9/11! Soon you can enter a fed building only if you show your ID. So what? They register your enty and check against a central database. Again so what? You only have to fear it if you have done sthg illegal, which most of us dont so why are you upset?

So what is your problem?


One can argue you europeans do not mind because you have always been sheep. You were and still are mostly subjects. The EU is a perfect example, a huge Government apperatus of UNELECTED people deciding whay you can and can not do.

In the US it is supposed to be a Government of the people, by the people. We the people are supposed to be the boss, not some nameless buerocrat.



JudgeDredd -> RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another (1/12/2008 12:51:23 AM)

Lets not turn it into another US vs EU bashing thread.

TT, believe what you like. If you believe your government is by the people for the people...power to you.



Ursa MAior -> RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another (1/12/2008 1:01:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: nim8or

quote:

they dont disturb anybody but significantly decrease the chance of illegal penetration


Where is the proof that Europe has seen a significant decrease in illegal penetration (sounds kinky anyway) since implementing these kinds of controls or that the illegal penetration rate is any lower for Europe than the U.S. at present?


I meant illegal entering of buildings (busines and gvt alike).




Ursa MAior -> RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another (1/12/2008 1:05:03 AM)

JD
I wholeheartedly agree with you.

TT
I was not expecting more from you. [;)]

Edit
No, no. Must resist, must resist!



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