RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War (Full Version)

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Q-Ball -> RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War (1/20/2008 4:21:06 PM)

I am a bit frustrated with the lack of results and work involved in getting results around the IJN sub fleet. Looking for input, is this everyone else's experience?

I have a few things I am using subs on:

1. I am grouping some of the long-range boats with a floatplane equipped boat to scout for transport TF's. I have one working b/w SF and Pearl, and more elsewhere. Sightings are uncommon, and kills even less so.
2. I try and flood a combat area with subs ahead of time to look for stragglers. I have picked off 2 or 3 DD's that way, that's it.
3. I use the floatplane subs ahead of island bases to get an early warning if an invasion is coming

I changed alot of the leaders to better ones. My frustration is:

1. I have an opponent who is very good at ASW. I sometimes forget to move a sub, and when that happens they are frequently found and killed.
2. I have never, EVER, scored a hit on anything larger than a wounded DD, or BB W Va in December 1941 steaming back to SF. That's it.
3. I have sunk maybe 15 to 20 AK's, 2-3 wounded DD's, and a few auxillliary craft. I have lost over a dozen subs. Is that a typical kill ratio?
4. When I park a TF in a port, it's suicidal. My opponent does this all the time, and often my guys can't/don't attack. I build ASW TF's with at least one DD because they have better commanders, and use alot of APD's and Type-95 DC equipped PC's. I have sunk maybe 3 or 4 subs so far (12/42).
5. The only subs sunk by aircraft were nailed in port. I take my highest exp. bomber units, and set them on 1000 ft. Naval Search around key areas. I get maybe a hit every 2-3 months.
6. I build every sub, with the exception of the 3500 range RO boats. Is that wise? I just don't feel like having more units to move without getting more results on the ones I have.

Is all of these COMMON experiences? I can probably improve performance by moving every sub every turn, but that gets tiring. Is my experience typical?



wwengr -> RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War (1/20/2008 4:49:29 PM)

Your experience is fairly historical. Japanese Submarine Doctrine had the subs attempting to pursue and sink ships that were faster than themselves. As a result, aside form a few "lucky hits" in the early war; the Japanese submarines were largely unsuccessful.

Torpedo hits like the Saratoga and the Wasp occurred because of a combination of events. In both cases the submarines found themselves in good position by happenstance and the carriers were inadequately escorted. In the case of Wasp, a truly weird event resulted in the loss. One of the torpedoes actually broached, leaping from the water and striking the ship well above the waterline scoring a hit on the Wasp's aviation gasoline tanks. Another lucky happenstance was that some of the torpedoes missed the Wasp and hit the Battleship North Carolina and the Destroyer O'Brien.

Aside from these two big events, the Japanese subs bagged only a few other warships for the remainder of the war. The Japanese used their subs mostly to carry supplies to remote garrisons.



wwengr -> RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War (1/20/2008 4:58:01 PM)

Also, just for illustration: the Japanese B-1 Type submarine was the most succesful. Twenty were launched, fourteen were sunk by the Allies, one was lost in sea trials, and one was lost but not accounted for. 80% losses for teh war.



wwengr -> RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War (1/20/2008 5:02:10 PM)

Suggestions:

  • You are operating where the Allied player can concentrate his resources. Lots of patrol planes and ASW hunter/killer groups. Move your subs to operate where the Allied player has to go.
  • If you can, operate your subs where patrol planes can complement their activites.
  • Move your subs every turn trying to predict where teh Allied TF's will end a phase.



Q-Ball -> RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War (1/20/2008 6:27:23 PM)

Good feedback, though I guess I should ask this:

Are you, my fellow players, getting great results from YOUR subs?

And, if so, how are you doing it?



jolly_pillager -> RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War (1/20/2008 6:32:21 PM)

I took all of my subs off of front-line duty due to losses and am using them as pickets and / or mine layers.



Coach Z -> RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War (1/20/2008 6:41:23 PM)

Note the SARATOGA was torpedoed but not sunk by an IJN Sub. The YORKTOWN was torpedoed and sunk by an IJN sub after the Battle of Midway were she had already suffered major damage.


I'm playing the Scenario that started in May 1st 1942.

I've had fairly good results with my IJN subs, but my opponent is also VERY aggressive and good w/ASW and if I forgot to move a sub after its spotted it's dead meat!
I've also put torpedos into the USS ENTERPRISE (who limped in to port-drat), the USS NASHVILLE, & HMAS CANBERRA...who didn't sink.

[image]local://upfiles/26010/28666356A13C47ACA8035868D74FF891.jpg[/image]



floydg -> RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War (1/20/2008 11:56:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Coach Z
I've had fairly good results with my IJN subs, but my opponent is also VERY aggressive and good w/ASW and if I forgot to move a sub after its spotted it's dead meat!
I've also put torpedos into the USS ENTERPRISE (who limped in to port-drat), the USS NASHVILLE, & HMAS CANBERRA...who didn't sink.


Yeah, sinking those ships has cost you 13 subs.



Mike Solli -> RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War (1/21/2008 10:15:05 PM)

Here's how I look at Japanese subs:  I expect nothing from them so when I hit something, I'm really, really happy. [;)]



John 3rd -> RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War (1/21/2008 10:30:05 PM)

I hold that if I can get a 1-for-1 sinking ratio of Jap SS to Allied ship, then I have done OK.  Allied ASW is just so terrible that you don't stand much of a chance.  This is how I use them:

1.  Glen I-Boats are used for heavy scouting purposes.  I also use them around major ports to spot Allied TF moving around.

2.  Ro are good point defense.  Use them to protect islands that I expect are going to be invaded or raided.

3.  Other SS are used to patrol major shipping lanes and/or highly congested areas.

I change nearly every Japanese SS Skipper at the start of the war to get more attacks and agression out of the vessels.



ChezDaJez -> RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War (1/22/2008 4:30:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Good feedback, though I guess I should ask this:

Are you, my fellow players, getting great results from YOUR subs?

And, if so, how are you doing it?



I use my IJN subs primarily as scouts and tripwires. The Glen-equipped boats patrol the sea lanes between the US and Australia but I do try to keep them at least 8 hexes from any allied base with patrol forces. I keep them primarily in the eastern Pacific, the IO and around Fiji. My opponent, Brad, is very good at sending ASW forces out whenever he detects my boats so I do have to keep them moving.

The other I-boats I send to patrol near Ceylon, the east coast of Australia and anywhere I think is allied surface traffic warrants, particularly the southern sea lanes between Fiji, New Zealand and the major Aussie ports.

The ROs are simply too short-legged to be of much good so I use them to patrol the approaches to my major bases so that I can hopefully spot that bombardment or carrier force before they arrive.

I have had fair success in sinking his ships though I haven't tagged any large warships yet. TKs and AKs have been the primary targets. I do not purposely pursue his ships with my subs though. I want the intel their reports generate so that I may provide a different form of welcoming committee. I have found that the few boats that attempted to attack a naval TF have paid heavily for their aggressiveness.


Chez



Coach Z -> RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War (1/22/2008 4:53:38 AM)

Like I said your ASW is very effective![:D]




RUPD3658 -> RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War (1/22/2008 5:31:38 AM)

In 2 PBEMs the biggest ship I ever sank was a wounded CL. Consider them scouts and recon ships. Do not stray into 4E bomber range or they will be slaughtered.



Mynok -> RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War (1/22/2008 6:00:35 AM)


I get pretty good results sinking AK/AP types early in the war but not much after that. They are best used as scouts and for rescuing cadres of land units about to be destroyed. Minelaying is another useful task, though one must always be careful of Allied ASW. It is deadly.

Don't build any more RO boats. They are a waste of naval shipyard points.




Mike Solli -> RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War (1/22/2008 3:25:59 PM)

I keep the RO class subs coming.  Although, to be honest, when I'm short naval build points, the RO class subs are what I halt.  I station them in areas where they don't have to travel far to be effective.  Places like the Solomons, Coral Sea or the Indian Ocean.



Cavalry Corp -> RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War (1/22/2008 3:39:10 PM)

In both my PBEM my JAP subs have done well - I think the JAP subs are great . You can track allied convoys with a wolfpack of about 5 subs 2 with planes.

The best result against surface war ships was two torps in the Washington , twice having encounters shots at allied CV ( Illustrious near Columbo and Wasp near Baker )

Sub doctrine is OFF thats not all that realistic in terms of the game I feel

In that PBEM I have sunk about 15 allied subs ( two to planes only ) and about 4 of those were lost in a few days trying to get a shot at the big allied CV TF near baker its May 43 that seems pretty good I think I have lost 10 subs and I think of those two to planes .

In my other game now in Setember 42 the allied subs have been mainly mine laying and have had some success about 10 jap AK etc sunk but their losses are starting to mount as they need to lay mines where my ASW Capability is getting better.

So should I change my skippers whats the best trait for a sub skipper , crew levels are all around 70

Michael



wwengr -> RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War (1/22/2008 6:40:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

In both my PBEM my JAP subs have done well - I think the JAP subs are great . You can track allied convoys with a wolfpack of about 5 subs 2 with planes.

The best result against surface war ships was two torps in the Washington , twice having encounters shots at allied CV ( Illustrious near Columbo and Wasp near Baker )

Sub doctrine is OFF thats not all that realistic in terms of the game I feel

In that PBEM I have sunk about 15 allied subs ( two to planes only ) and about 4 of those were lost in a few days trying to get a shot at the big allied CV TF near baker its May 43 that seems pretty good I think I have lost 10 subs and I think of those two to planes .

In my other game now in Setember 42 the allied subs have been mainly mine laying and have had some success about 10 jap AK etc sunk but their losses are starting to mount as they need to lay mines where my ASW Capability is getting better.

So should I change my skippers whats the best trait for a sub skipper , crew levels are all around 70

Michael

Submarines
Assign leader using these priorities:

  • Aggression – Influences sub’s chance of contacting enemy TF’s
  • Naval Skill – Influences sub’s chance of contact and survivability in an ASW attack
  • Leadership – Influences the sub’s experience gain
  • No other skills or qualities have any influence





Mike Solli -> RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War (1/22/2008 6:45:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wwengr


quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

In both my PBEM my JAP subs have done well - I think the JAP subs are great . You can track allied convoys with a wolfpack of about 5 subs 2 with planes.

The best result against surface war ships was two torps in the Washington , twice having encounters shots at allied CV ( Illustrious near Columbo and Wasp near Baker )

Sub doctrine is OFF thats not all that realistic in terms of the game I feel

In that PBEM I have sunk about 15 allied subs ( two to planes only ) and about 4 of those were lost in a few days trying to get a shot at the big allied CV TF near baker its May 43 that seems pretty good I think I have lost 10 subs and I think of those two to planes .

In my other game now in Setember 42 the allied subs have been mainly mine laying and have had some success about 10 jap AK etc sunk but their losses are starting to mount as they need to lay mines where my ASW Capability is getting better.

So should I change my skippers whats the best trait for a sub skipper , crew levels are all around 70

Michael

Submarines
Assign leader using these priorities:

  • Aggression – Influences sub’s chance of contacting enemy TF’s
  • Naval Skill – Influences sub’s chance of contact and survivability in an ASW attack
  • Leadership – Influences the sub’s experience gain
  • No other skills or qualities have any influence





I pretty much do this with one exception. I do not want the Glen carrying subs to attack. Their job is to find targets for the other boats. I do not put aggressive commanders in those boats.



bradfordkay -> RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War (1/22/2008 7:35:49 PM)

" My opponent, Brad, is very good at sending ASW forces out whenever he detects my boats so I do have to keep them moving. "

Early in the war I lost one of the President series APs loaded with a complete FA Rgt off Hilo, so ever since I have been more aggressive at stamping out those irritating little buggers!



Mike Solli -> RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War (1/22/2008 8:55:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

" My opponent, Brad, is very good at sending ASW forces out whenever he detects my boats so I do have to keep them moving. "

Early in the war I lost one of the President series APs loaded with a complete FA Rgt off Hilo, so ever since I have been more aggressive at stamping out those irritating little buggers!


Another note here: Never ever load a unit onto 1 ship. Always use 2 or more, even if it will fit on one ship. If the ship goes, so does the unit.



niceguy2005 -> RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War (1/22/2008 9:52:40 PM)

What I have seen from Graycompany is that he used his subs very effectively early in the game.  When the allied forces were inexperienced and before ships upgraded he used his subs aggresively and with pretty good effect.  He mainly focused on raiding my shipping and camped out in shipping lanes well away from LBA.  He also used them as scouts to spot for CLs acting as surface raiders.  Really gave me a rough time.

However, now that escorts have upgraded and I have more air power he has lost a number of subs.  He now mostly seems to use subs within his airspace, or as minelayers...which is very annoying. [;)]



bradfordkay -> RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War (1/22/2008 11:19:07 PM)

quote:

Another note here: Never ever load a unit onto 1 ship. Always use 2 or more, even if it will fit on one ship. If the ship goes, so does the unit.


Well, in the early going there is a race to get troops to some of the islands before the Japanese can invade. At that time transports are at a premium, so the certain units end up on single tranports.

Besides, you can't split a single squadron of aircraft (CHS has most of the allied air units as single squadrons) among more than one transport, so I had begun to ignore that old rule.

In general that is a good rule of thumb, but it no longer applies to every situation.



niceguy2005 -> RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War (1/23/2008 12:48:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

quote:

Another note here: Never ever load a unit onto 1 ship. Always use 2 or more, even if it will fit on one ship. If the ship goes, so does the unit.


Well, in the early going there is a race to get troops to some of the islands before the Japanese can invade. At that time transports are at a premium, so the certain units end up on single tranports.

Besides, you can't split a single squadron of aircraft (CHS has most of the allied air units as single squadrons) among more than one transport, so I had begun to ignore that old rule.

In general that is a good rule of thumb, but it no longer applies to every situation.

Yep. plus I have had the KB show up and sink an entire TF before. There's an entire tank Bde sitting on the bottom of the Bay of Bengal and a 64 plane transport unit sitting at the bottom of the IO.

but generally that is an excellent rule of thumb.



Feinder -> RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War (1/23/2008 2:30:48 AM)

After PH, I sent the long-range IJN subs to camp off SanFran by about 8 hexes.

They sank 3x crippled BBs...  [;)]

Other than that, it's mostly a waiting game.

I usually keep subs in packs of 6, send them to a deployment area, and then split them into individual TF in separate hexes.  Then you just have to sit and wait.  You need to find a spot along a likely ship route, that is usually about 6+ hexes from an enemy base (close to a base, you'll likely be spotted by LBA and then hunted by DDs).  If you're spotted, you gotta move.

-F-



wwengr -> RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War (1/23/2008 3:01:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli


quote:

ORIGINAL: wwengr


quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

In both my PBEM my JAP subs have done well - I think the JAP subs are great . You can track allied convoys with a wolfpack of about 5 subs 2 with planes.

The best result against surface war ships was two torps in the Washington , twice having encounters shots at allied CV ( Illustrious near Columbo and Wasp near Baker )

Sub doctrine is OFF thats not all that realistic in terms of the game I feel

In that PBEM I have sunk about 15 allied subs ( two to planes only ) and about 4 of those were lost in a few days trying to get a shot at the big allied CV TF near baker its May 43 that seems pretty good I think I have lost 10 subs and I think of those two to planes .

In my other game now in Setember 42 the allied subs have been mainly mine laying and have had some success about 10 jap AK etc sunk but their losses are starting to mount as they need to lay mines where my ASW Capability is getting better.

So should I change my skippers whats the best trait for a sub skipper , crew levels are all around 70

Michael

Submarines
Assign leader using these priorities:

  • Aggression – Influences sub’s chance of contacting enemy TF’s
  • Naval Skill – Influences sub’s chance of contact and survivability in an ASW attack
  • Leadership – Influences the sub’s experience gain
  • No other skills or qualities have any influence





I pretty much do this with one exception. I do not want the Glen carrying subs to attack. Their job is to find targets for the other boats. I do not put aggressive commanders in those boats.


It is a good point. While we generally look at most skills/qualities as higher is better, this does not always hold true. The desired agressiveness in a leader is situational. As an operational game, you are depending on your e-commanders to make good decisions. Low agressiveness is a desirable quality in some cases. Non-combat and recon units usually do best when they avoid a fight.



ChezDaJez -> RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War (1/23/2008 3:29:06 AM)

In my game with Brad, he sank the CA Maya off Malaya on the 2nd or 3rd day of the war with a Dutch boat IIRC. Just slightly annoying!!!

He has had shots at bigger targets but torps have either missed or failed to detonate. Unfortunately our game is about to enter 1943 and his torps will get much better... not a prospect I'm looking forward to as his boats have been a P.I.T.A. (pain in the a--)

Chez



bradfordkay -> RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War (1/23/2008 4:25:33 AM)

Chez, that wasn't a Dutch boat, it was the S-38 (and it was Dec 11, the fifth day of the war - I knew that my little notebook would come in handy one day!). A lucky shot if there ever was one... It kinda makes up for all those AOs that were recipients of dud torpedoes... or maybe not!

Hey, in our game it is the one year anniversary of S-38's little victory there! Unfortunately the captain and crew of the S-38 can't celebrate. They were sunk off Davao on Feb 12, '42 during the battle for Mindanao.



USSAmerica -> RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War (1/23/2008 4:49:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


I get pretty good results sinking AK/AP types early in the war but not much after that.




Hmmm....around Singapore and Java? [8|][:D]



Dixie -> RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War (1/23/2008 5:00:09 PM)

I've had reasonable success in my game with Yava.  I don't have the specifics to hand, but IIRC despite several HK groups patrolling my usual patrol areas I've managed to sink a minelayer and several transports around the Pacific islands, and sank two AO between Hawaii and the US West Coast.  I've lost one I-boat with a few more returning home for moderate damage.  Success against warships has been limited to hitting damaged DDs so far.



Mynok -> RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: IJN Sub War (1/23/2008 5:19:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


I get pretty good results sinking AK/AP types early in the war but not much after that.




Hmmm....around Singapore and Java? [8|][:D]


Yes, those spots do ring a bell.....the abandon ship bell. [:D]



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