Why 3 people? (Full Version)

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Ike99 -> Why 3 people? (1/26/2008 4:02:39 PM)

I´m assuming from things obvious the standard crew for a dive bomber is 2 (dauntless, stuka, val, etc.), a pilot who fly the plane and drops the bomb with a tail gunner.

Now it seems the standard crew for a torpedoe plane is three. Why three people? Anyone have any operational knowledge as to why dropping a torpedo from an airplane requires 3 people and a bomb just two?



Prince of Eckmühl -> RE: Why 3 people? (1/26/2008 5:26:03 PM)

The third crewman, the one in the middle, was the bombardier.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)



Ike99 -> RE: Why 3 people? (1/26/2008 6:17:11 PM)

quote:

The third crewman, the one in the middle, was the bombardier.


Hmmm...and why a dedicated crewman for a torpedo launch? In these torpedo planes did the bombadier have a sort of periscope to aim his torpedo with as he sits behind the pilot?

I´ve played some submarine simulators and had to calculated a torpedo firing solution by hand before and I´m assuming they had to have some sort of system such as this but this is a wild guess.



Mundy -> RE: Why 3 people? (1/26/2008 7:27:10 PM)

TBD's carried 2 on torpedo missions.



Joe D. -> RE: Why 3 people? (1/26/2008 8:18:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

... Now it seems the standard crew for a torpedoe plane is three. Why three people? Anyone have any operational knowledge as to why dropping a torpedo from an airplane requires 3 people and a bomb just two?


Re the Encyclopedia of Aircraft of World War II: The B5N2 had a crew of three: a pilot, a radio operator, and an observer/navigator, who also doubled as a bomb-aimer; he was seated between the pilot and radio operator, and could view the target thru a small pair of folding doors in the fusalage. The radio operator also manned the single trainable machine-gun in the rear cockpit.



Prince of Eckmühl -> RE: Why 3 people? (1/26/2008 9:05:29 PM)

These a/c also doubled as level-bombers and were notable for use in this role in actions such as the Pearl Harbor attack.

The TBD and most versions of the Avenger carried the same Norden bombsight as that employed aboard U.S. multi-engine bombers.

As the war continued, however, the "T" class bombers, were employed mostly for low-altitude attacks with bombs, rockets and, of course, torpedoes.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)



Prince of Eckmühl -> RE: Why 3 people? (1/26/2008 9:15:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

Re the Encyclopedia of Aircraft of World War II: The B5N2 had a crew of three: a pilot, a radio operator, and an observer/navigator, who also doubled as a bomb-aimer; he was seated between the pilot and radio operator, and could view the target thru a small pair of folding doors in the fusalage. The radio operator also manned the single trainable machine-gun in the rear cockpit.



There was considerable divergence among the nationalities in regard to the other duties assigned to the third crewman on torpedo bombers. In contrast to the duties that Joe D. notes as being associated with the Kate, the American configuration was such that the third crewman was both navigator and radio operator (and ventral gunner on a TBF/TBM).

PoE (aka ivanmoe)



ILCK -> RE: Why 3 people? (1/26/2008 10:41:15 PM)

So the basic answer is that since the torpedo planes did both torpedo duty and level bombing they had the thrid. The pilot could have lined up the torpedo shot but using a real bombsight required the third.



Panther Bait -> RE: Why 3 people? (1/27/2008 2:13:38 AM)

It is also possible that the nature of the torpedo run, especially in the earlier planes like the TBD, was probably a concentration consuming task.  Flying at low altitude (<100 feet) at something approaching stall speed, potentially in a cross-wind, probably took 2 hands, both feet and most of your brain.  Having a second set of eyes and hands to track the target and drop the torp probably helped.  In contrast, dive bombing



Prince of Eckmühl -> RE: Why 3 people? (1/27/2008 2:31:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panther Bait

It is also possible that the nature of the torpedo run, especially in the earlier planes like the TBD, was probably a concentration consuming task. Flying at low altitude (<100 feet) at something approaching stall speed, potentially in a cross-wind, probably took 2 hands, both feet and most of your brain. Having a second set of eyes and hands to track the target and drop the torp probably helped. In contrast, dive bombing

Nope, the bombardier just did the aiming on level-bombing attacks, like a B-17 might do.

The pilot handled everything else, torpedo-runs, glide-bombing and rocket attacks.

Of course, there was still work to be done, radios, NAV and so on.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)



Ike99 -> RE: Why 3 people? (1/27/2008 3:44:17 AM)

quote:


The pilot handled everything else, torpedo-runs, glide-bombing and rocket attacks.



Really...I always thought the person in the middle dropped the torpedo on a torpedo mission. I´m thinking on a torpedo mission this person in the middle then must have had way too much time on his hands for thinking about getting killed. [:D]

That has got to be one of the most dangerous missions to do! Low, slow and straight. I know the Japanese Kates get savaged in UV during torpedo attacks...



Joe D. -> RE: Why 3 people? (1/27/2008 5:08:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

Re the Encyclopedia of Aircraft of World War II: The B5N2 had a crew of three: a pilot, a radio operator, and an observer/navigator, who also doubled as a bomb-aimer; he was seated between the pilot and radio operator, and could view the target thru a small pair of folding doors in the fusalage. The radio operator also manned the single trainable machine-gun in the rear cockpit.


There was considerable divergence among the nationalities in regard to the other duties assigned to the third crewman on torpedo bombers. In contrast to the duties that Joe D. notes as being associated with the Kate, the American configuration was such that the third crewman was both navigator and radio operator (and ventral gunner on a TBF/TBM).

PoE (aka ivanmoe)


Re my same source, in the TBF, the plot fired the fixed forward guns and released the torp, the bomb-aimer in the lower fuselage also manned the ventral gun (as was already said) and the radio operator aft of the pilot was also the turret gunner: at least everyone on this plane would be busy during combat!

I don't know if torpedo plane crews were cross-trained, or for that matter if they could even physically get to the other positions while in flight.



bigred -> RE: Why 3 people? (2/2/2008 5:16:38 AM)

I recall a discussion with my gaming gruop one day at lunch how the torpedo man was responsible for making sure the torpedo hit the wave at a specific point to insure that the torpedo would not malfunction. He had a picture somewhere of a british swordfish with the torpedo man hanging outside the fusalge, with his feet being held by the radio operator so he could judge the correct hieght of the wave to release the torp for the attack on the Bismarck.



Joe D. -> RE: Why 3 people? (2/2/2008 12:47:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bigred

... He had a picture somewhere of a british swordfish with the torpedo man hanging outside the fusalge, with his feet being held by the radio operator so he could judge the correct hieght of the wave to release the torp for the attack on the Bismarck.



You're joking, right? Sounds more like a circus act than an aerial attack.



Ike99 -> RE: Why 3 people? (2/2/2008 10:46:08 PM)

quote:

He had a picture somewhere of a british swordfish with the torpedo man hanging outside the fusalge, with his feet being held by the radio operator so he could judge the correct hieght of the wave to release the torp for the attack on the Bismarck.


Well tell your friend to scan it and post it...

Then we can have a big fight if the picture is staged or not. [;)]

Right Joe?

[:D]



tocaff -> RE: Why 3 people? (2/2/2008 11:57:37 PM)

[:-]



Joe D. -> RE: Why 3 people? (2/3/2008 12:05:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

quote:

He had a picture somewhere of a british swordfish with the torpedo man hanging outside the fusalge, with his feet being held by the radio operator so he could judge the correct hieght of the wave to release the torp for the attack on the Bismarck.


Well tell your friend to scan it and post it...

Then we can have a big fight if the picture is staged or not. [;)]

Right Joe?
[:D]


LOL Ike! One of the first thoughts that came to my mind was who took this Swordfish "photo" since most of the Bismark's crew went down w/the ship and the other torpedo planes were busy dodging flak.

But don't get me started!



PizzaMan -> RE: Why 3 people? (2/5/2008 7:42:30 PM)

You obviously haven't seen pictures taken by tourists from the top of the twin towers on 9/11 as the planes were coming in.  They're proof that the most unusual pictures can be salvaged despite impossible odds.

[:D]



pasternakski -> RE: Why 3 people? (2/22/2008 11:48:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99
Why three people?

It's a French idea, actually...



HansBolter -> RE: Why 3 people? (2/22/2008 2:06:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bigred

... He had a picture somewhere of a british swordfish with the torpedo man hanging outside the fusalge, with his feet being held by the radio operator so he could judge the correct hieght of the wave to release the torp for the attack on the Bismarck.



You're joking, right? Sounds more like a circus act than an aerial attack.




Sounds to me like something went wrong with the release mechanism on that particular plane and the crew was trying to get to the release mechanism to try and free it up. I doubt seriously that it was SOP.



Joe D. -> RE: Why 3 people? (2/22/2008 3:16:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99
Why three people?

It's a French idea, actually...


Menage a plane?



Charbroiled -> RE: Why 3 people? (2/22/2008 6:14:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PizzaMan

You obviously haven't seen pictures taken by tourists from the top of the twin towers on 9/11 as the planes were coming in.  They're proof that the most unusual pictures can be salvaged despite impossible odds.

[:D]



That particular picture is a fake

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/photos/tourist.asp



BrunoT -> RE: Why 3 people? (6/4/2008 6:50:10 AM)

With Devastator TB's used through Midway there was a 3rd crew member who only flew on bombing missions and was left behind on torpedo missions. In one case at Midway a man thought for a while that his brother and fellow shipmate had died with rest of VT-6 but later found him on board safe. He'd been left behind on board ship as it was a torpedo mission.

Also, as you may already know, in Japanese TB's the commander was often the center seat observer, not the pilot. With aircrew at a premium I assume (maybe it was just pilots in short supply?) I often wondered why they couldn't do w/o that 3rd seat position man on torpedo missions. They were putting 50% more men at risk with each sortie.

And of course in naval aviation it was always a nice luxury to have an extra man around to navigate. I'm not sure if the non-pilot 3rd crewmember did that on any TB.




panda124c -> RE: Why 3 people? (6/4/2008 8:10:14 PM)

In the Swordfish (IIRC) there was (front to rear) the pilot, the Aircraft Commander, and the gunner. The A/C commander stood up in the cockpit during an attack directing the pilot and gunner. Most of the time the A/C commander was left on the carrier. It has always amused me that you have this guy (the A/C Commander) standing up in the cockpit with straps holding him to the A/C direction the A/C's operation like the captain of a ship. You gottta love the RN. [:D]

The pilot was the bombadier, the A/C was placed on a course to intersect the targets course, at a particular altitude, speed and distance, then the torpedo was dropped by the pilot. Most radio operater were trained as gunners.



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