Bug-- Will not accept surrender (Full Version)

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Alex Gilbert -> Bug-- Will not accept surrender (1/26/2008 9:15:34 PM)

Hi- the situation: June 1805, France holds London. I, as GB, sue for peace. I click that I will accept an unconditional surrender. Then click to end the phase and get the message "London is held by France, you must surrender." or whatever that message is. Tried a second and third time to surrender and it would not let me.

The file below is the Prussian dipl. phase as that brings us up to the GB dipl phase--is that what is needed, or something else?

Alex



Murat -> RE: Bug-- Will not accept surrender (1/26/2008 10:09:58 PM)

This is that surrender thing. You may have to offer surrenders of some sort to everyone you are at war with. I am not sure how it works. If you want to try it I can always send a backup out if it fails.



ndrose -> RE: Bug-- Will not accept surrender (1/26/2008 11:02:40 PM)

Shouldn't be the case. You only have to surrender to everyone if you are trying to surrender to a country with no forces in your home nation. If France is occupying London, GB can surrender just to France.

Nathan Rose



Murat -> RE: Bug-- Will not accept surrender (1/26/2008 11:42:54 PM)

Oh good, glad you worked with this bug before. So how does he do it?



BoerWar -> RE: Bug-- Will not accept surrender (1/27/2008 12:46:21 AM)

I'll admit up front I'm an interested party here since I'm playing France's ally in this game.

Nevertheless, it makes no sense to me though (for this game or any other) that a country that has lost control of its Capital should retain the ability to dictate which alliance members it will and won't surrender to. In this case France is holding all the cards. If France wants to accept GB's surrender by itself then France should have the ability to do so. On the other hand, if France wants to insist that if GB wants to end the war then it will have to surrender to its allies that option should also be available.

Otherwise France should be able to camp out in London while GB decends into chaos.



delatbabel -> RE: Bug-- Will not accept surrender (1/27/2008 2:06:54 AM)

According to the rules: Any country can dictate which alliance members it will and won't surrender to. The only exception is that if you attempt to surrender to a country that has no forces within your home nation -- at the same time you must surrender to all powers that you are at war with. Also there is no rule requiring a country to surrender just because its capital is occupied (although this does appear to be a "playing condition" of EiANW). So, for example, if France occupies London and GB wants to sue Spain for peace, and there are no Spanish forces within Great Britain, then GB must also sue France for peace.

There are two bugs here:

* The often-reported bug where a nation is required to surrender if its capital is occupied (there is no rule requiring this).
* GB suing France for peace should not be required to sue any other nation for peace, because there are French forces in London (contrary to rules).

Since this is a bug it should be reported here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1679584



Trin -> RE: Bug-- Will not accept surrender (1/27/2008 2:24:12 AM)

I'm also curious as to what suddenly changed here. I noticed a Alex Gilbert comment in an earlier thread that


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alex Gilbert

I, for one, would like a bit more info about this forced surrender. I know for a fact that having your capital occupied by unbesieged enemy units does NOT force you to surrender by itself. Murat knows this too, as he has held my capital for the last 3 months and I have not surrendered (yet) [:D]

So there must be something else going on here-- are the other provincial capitals held? Is Prussia in the instability/fiasco zone?

I agree with all who have said that simply capturing an enemy capital should not force surrender, but I do not think that is what has happened here.


When exactly does the MUST surrender requirement kick in?



zaquex -> RE: Bug-- Will not accept surrender (1/27/2008 2:34:52 AM)

An addition, I think France, at least in EiA can demand a surrender to all its allies as a condition for accepting a conditional surrender, for a unconditional there is never any conditions it must be accepted.

In practical terms there is often good reasons to accept peace with all nations you are at war with if there is any risk that you will be forced to surrender again. A single peace can never cost you more than 8 pp for unconditional or 5 pp for conditional no matter how many nations you make peace with. Also in any given peace a peace condition can only be taken once, while they obviously can be taken again in a second peace. 



delatbabel -> RE: Bug-- Will not accept surrender (1/27/2008 3:42:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zaquex

An addition, I think France, at least in EiA can demand a surrender to all its allies as a condition for accepting a conditional surrender, for a unconditional there is never any conditions it must be accepted.



No, that's not correct.

* In EiA there is player to player diplomacy, however France can never put conditions on accepting a conditional surrender. The sequence is:
(a) England offers to surrender to France, as well as other powers (perhaps).
(b) France can choose conditional or unconditional. That is up to France to decide. France may write either "conditional" or "unconditional" regardless of how many allies are included in the surrender.
(c) If France writes "conditional" then the surrender must be accepted. If France writes "unconditional" then GB can choose to accept the surrender or not.

There is an optional rule that essentially requires France and GB to stay at war for most of the game. The wording of that implies that France may never offer a conditional surrender or informal peace to GB (so step b doesn't apply) and that there are certain harsh conditions that must be demanded in an unconditional surrender. However the above applies to the normal surrender circumstances.

quote:


In practical terms there is often good reasons to accept peace with all nations you are at war with if there is any risk that you will be forced to surrender again. A single peace can never cost you more than 8 pp for unconditional or 5 pp for conditional no matter how many nations you make peace with. Also in any given peace a peace condition can only be taken once, while they obviously can be taken again in a second peace.


Yes, correct. It amazes me to see the AI not taking this path, ever.



Alex Gilbert -> RE: Bug-- Will not accept surrender (1/27/2008 5:25:05 AM)

A couple of replies to the above comments:

Trin:
Yes, this is the first time I have been forced to surrender. The sequence was: Fr successfully besieged London and took it in Mar 05 (an econ phase) and held it Mar, Apr, May. At no time was I forced to surrender. Then, we changed to 1.01b and in June, I am now forced to surrender. So, I am not sure if it is an issue with 1.01b or whether the fact that France did not hold London in the diplomacy phase of March is the reason I was never forced. I expect it is the latter.

We can debate the value of having a forced surrender when the enemy holds the capital (see the other thread that Trin referenced). However, this is clearly a bug, as I have tried surrendering to France unconditionally, to France unconditionally and Spain conditionally, and to both France and spain unconditionally and none of these work--I still get the "you must surrender" message and can not get out of the phase.



zaquex -> RE: Bug-- Will not accept surrender (1/27/2008 10:00:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: delatbabel


quote:

ORIGINAL: zaquex

An addition, I think France, at least in EiA can demand a surrender to all its allies as a condition for accepting a conditional surrender, for a unconditional there is never any conditions it must be accepted.



No, that's not correct.

* In EiA there is player to player diplomacy, however France can never put conditions on accepting a conditional surrender. The sequence is:
(a) England offers to surrender to France, as well as other powers (perhaps).
(b) France can choose conditional or unconditional. That is up to France to decide. France may write either "conditional" or "unconditional" regardless of how many allies are included in the surrender.
(c) If France writes "conditional" then the surrender must be accepted. If France writes "unconditional" then GB can choose to accept the surrender or not.



You are ofc right, but in practical terms A in this example France can demand unconditional unless and until B (GB) also sues for peace to A's allies. This is ofc subject to the optional rule mentioned not being used. Which is in effect is what I said.



ndrose -> RE: Bug-- Will not accept surrender (1/27/2008 8:36:44 PM)

Nope, haven't seen this bug; I was just saying that if it's happening, it's a bug, not a rule.

Nathan Rose



Murat -> RE: Bug-- Will not accept surrender (1/27/2008 9:41:08 PM)

OK Turkey declared war on Britain this turn. My best guess is that Britain was required to offer a surrender to all enemies due to London being beseiged (which will change many a strategy I am sure) but could not due to not being able to set surrender conditions for Turkey. We will see what happens in July I guess and then maybe we will know the rule in more detail.



Alex Gilbert -> RE: Bug-- Will not accept surrender (1/28/2008 6:20:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Murat

OK Turkey declared war on Britain this turn. My best guess is that Britain was required to offer a surrender to all enemies due to London being beseiged (which will change many a strategy I am sure) but could not due to not being able to set surrender conditions for Turkey. We will see what happens in July I guess and then maybe we will know the rule in more detail.


Possibly, but it is still a bug on 2 levels: 1. the idea that turkey DoWing would block the surrender, and 2. that a country must surrender to all enemies even if only 1 is inside that country.



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