I DON'T want my money back ! (Full Version)

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nukkxx5058 -> I DON'T want my money back ! (1/27/2008 6:42:39 PM)

The game is totally unplayable as there is no tutorial to help getting to start with EIA. As a result, I will not play this game and will remove it from my hard drive.

However, I don't want my money back. I like matrixgames. Good firm usually with good products! So I am glad to participate to its funding and I am happy with my 50 euros donation (not tax deductible).



gwheelock -> RE: I DON'T want my money back ! (1/27/2008 6:53:41 PM)

The best tutorial is to play vs the AI. Set up your troops; move a few corp around.
DOW & try to capture a minor or two.  Usually; the AI will ignore you.  If you get
into a bad situation; just start a new game.



Murat -> RE: I DON'T want my money back ! (1/27/2008 6:53:44 PM)

Don't do this quite yet. Wait for a few days and see if someone can piece together a tutorial of some sort.



TheHellPatrol -> RE: I DON'T want my money back ! (1/27/2008 10:09:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gwheelock

The best tutorial is to play vs the AI. Set up your troops; move a few corp around.
DOW & try to capture a minor or two.  Usually; the AI will ignore you.  If you get
into a bad situation; just start a new game.
ROFL!!!!!!! Everybody says that, that's what's different about this game versus any other: HOW? How the hell DO you actually PLAY the game? LOL...the UI won't let me[:'(]. Nobody, and i mean NOBODY[8|], is claiming that it's too hard...its like a cobbler trying to do a heart valve transplant...what do i click?
If we could actually "play" the game the rest would be simple...apparently[8|].



zenmaster -> RE: I DON'T want my money back ! (1/28/2008 2:48:50 AM)

Or you could simply ask more questions in the forum.

The game is really not that hard to play nor all that complicated.
The interface lets you do everything you need.

Sure, the AI needs work to improve but that will come in a couple patches.
Sure, there needs to be more security in play-by-mail, but that is coming too.

However, it's far from unplayable.




Grapeshot Bob -> RE: I DON'T want my money back ! (1/28/2008 3:42:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zenmaster

Or you could simply ask more questions in the forum.

The game is really not that hard to play nor all that complicated.
The interface lets you do everything you need.




The forums are great. I learned a lot there from patient members of the community.

But look through the forums. They are filled with redundant repeated requests by newbies asking to be shown how to use the game. The questions get answered but then get asked several days later and reanswered. The forums aren't exactly structured for data retrieval. Even the developers are trying to centralize feedback into a single thread because it is hard to mine the rest of the threads for bug reports.

Heck, I've sent in useless bug reports because I didn't know how to use the game, so I thought problems I was having were bugs instead of me being uninformed.

People begging for a guide should provide a very compelling motivation for someone to provide one. This is a commercial enterprise and should be judged like any other commercial enterprise. If people ask for a manual then give them one.

The interface for anything ever written for a computer has everything you need to use the program. That doesn't make it easy or enjoyable. Newbies need a quick reference to get going.

What people are asking for isn't time or skill intensive. One experienced player could write up a useful, brief quick start guide in a single weekend. Explain the UI, the basics of setup and what each phase does. This should be coupled with walk throughs at each step.

I have come to enjoy this game immensely and I'd hate to see it die for lack of simple instructions. Not after all the hard work that has gone into developing the game.



GSB



TheHellPatrol -> RE: I DON'T want my money back ! (1/28/2008 3:51:35 AM)

[&o]@Grapeshot:
Amen Brother!



Alex777 -> RE: I DON'T want my money back ! (1/28/2008 4:34:46 AM)

I agree with GSB, but would put the case rather more forcefully.  It is inexcusable that Matrix allowed the Manual to go out in its present form.  I expect the reviewers to be making this point soon.  The Manual consists mostly of chunks of text lifted from the board game rules, with some superficial changes.  No one seems to have asked the question: "Could a novice learn to play against the AI by reading this document?"  A number of posters here have replied, essentially, that if you spend enough time experimenting with the program and asking questions on this forum, you will eventually piece it together.  And that's true.  But it sets a new low for "quality control on a computer program destined for commercial release."



TheHellPatrol -> RE: I DON'T want my money back ! (1/28/2008 4:47:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alex777

.  No one seems to have asked the question: "Could a novice learn to play against the AI by reading this document?"   But it sets a new low for "quality control on a computer program destined for commercial release."
Actually, the real question should read: "Could a novice learn to play against the "UI" by reading this document?" NOOOOO[:-] We've all heard about the "AI", it's not about the AI or lack of it...



fvianello -> RE: I DON'T want my money back ! (1/28/2008 2:51:01 PM)

a simple question to all complainers: have you read the manual? Where "read" does not mean opening it at a random page, read two sentences, then close it.

Once upon a time, there were games that you cannot play before reading the manual...

that said, I agree that a tutorial is needed.



Alex777 -> RE: I DON'T want my money back ! (1/28/2008 2:58:47 PM)

<<  have you read the manual? >>

I have done what I do with all serious wargames.  I skimmed the Manual, then read it cover to cover, highlighting the important bits and making notes on the side, then printed out my notes.  At that point I had a pretty good understanding of the EiA system, and might even have been able to play the board game.  BUT - I still didn't have enough information to address the User Interface!  I had no idea where to click to make things happen. 

At that point, I spent several hours "playing against the interface".  I left-clicked and right-clicked and double-clicked all over the place, discovering little Easter-egg style secrets which should have been in the Manual.  I made notes of all this, creating a sort of mini-manual for myself.  Eventually, I think, I learned how the program works.



fvianello -> RE: I DON'T want my money back ! (1/28/2008 3:14:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alex777

<<  have you read the manual? >>

I have done what I do with all serious wargames.  I skimmed the Manual, then read it cover to cover, highlighting the important bits and making notes on the side, then printed out my notes.  At that point I had a pretty good understanding of the EiA system, and might even have been able to play the board game.  BUT - I still didn't have enough information to address the User Interface!  I had no idea where to click to make things happen. 

At that point, I spent several hours "playing against the interface".  I left-clicked and right-clicked and double-clicked all over the place, discovering little Easter-egg style secrets which should have been in the Manual.  I made notes of all this, creating a sort of mini-manual for myself.  Eventually, I think, I learned how the program works.


I don't think I'm a genius (ok, actually I think I am but it doesn't matter now) and it took me a whooping 20 minutes to understand the interface. When all you can do is click, double click and right click on things it doesn't take long to try everything.



isandlwana -> RE: I DON'T want my money back ! (1/28/2008 4:19:32 PM)

Look we understand all it takes is 20 minutes of useless clicking--the point that everyone is complaining about is.....that a simple tutorial by matrix showing what all the click icons do would make things vastly easier!--Reference the tutorial now in the TIPS thread--why should we as gamers have to do this---Matrix could have attached a simple tutorial folder into the manual---even just a few color coded JPEGS would have done much to make it easier.  No one really expects AI to be better--it is the manual to make the GUI easier to understand that needs improvement.



fvianello -> RE: I DON'T want my money back ! (1/28/2008 4:33:38 PM)

ahhhh maybe I understand now. You didn't even open the manual, right ? The one in .pdf format in the documentation directory, not the windows format one opened by pressing "?"

THAT manual has images in it, but of course you have to go under "start-empires in arms-documentation-manual".
I know it's hard, maybe we should ask for a tutorial for that.



baboune -> RE: I DON'T want my money back ! (1/28/2008 4:33:47 PM)

If you dont want your money you can send it to me :)



nukkxx5058 -> RE: I DON'T want my money back ! (1/28/2008 4:53:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HanBarca

ahhhh maybe I understand now. You didn't even open the manual, right ? The one in .pdf format in the documentation directory, not the windows format one opened by pressing "?"

THAT manual has images in it, but of course you have to go under "start-empires in arms-documentation-manual".
I know it's hard, maybe we should ask for a tutorial for that.


tss tss tss ... the manual is particularly poorly written and an average player has no idea what to do after installing the game. Even the setup phase is hard to complete without guidance. We see the multiple buttons but hard to say which should be activated and why and which one should not ... in one word: a tutorial is needed.



Soapy Frog -> RE: I DON'T want my money back ! (1/28/2008 5:18:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HanBarca

ahhhh maybe I understand now. You didn't even open the manual, right ? The one in .pdf format in the documentation directory, not the windows format one opened by pressing "?"

THAT manual has images in it, but of course you have to go under "start-empires in arms-documentation-manual".
I know it's hard, maybe we should ask for a tutorial for that.

Wow... fanboi... you could be doing a worse disservice to the game and community by excusing the lack of tutorial.

Every game seems to have these types of folks, we can only pray the developer ignores you, and listens to the people who have perfectly valid complaints and requests.



fvianello -> RE: I DON'T want my money back ! (1/28/2008 5:33:11 PM)

BAH!
I'm just tired of people complaining about a manual they never opened once. Do you really think they'll stop complaining when a tutorial will be ready ?



SamuraiProgrmmr -> RE: I DON'T want my money back ! (1/28/2008 5:49:13 PM)

Before I start, I am not complaining.... just pointing out where I need help.  Maybe others are in the same spot.

I read the manual.

I tried to play the game.

I know little or nothing about Napoleonics but have played wargames since 1980.

I think the problem is not just 'how do you do it', but also 'what do I want to do'.  I find myself wondering 'should I do something and make the computer react to me' or 'should I wait and react to the computer'.  I have no idea whether I should declare war now or wait 3 years while building.  There is so much information to put together that I find myself overwhelmed.  (The complexity is a good thing, but players new to this game have to find a way over the initial learning hump.

In the months prior to release, I scanned the internet for FAQs on the board game and found little or nothing that would help a raw beginner gain traction.  At least with WWII games, you know that Germany needs to be able to attack Poland in September 1939.  At least that is a benchmark that can be used until the player gains enough knowledge to be creative. 

However, with a political game such as EIA, the history may or may not be realistic benchmarks.

Real Life (TM) has prevented me from reading all of the posts on this board since release but I have copies of them for when I can.  What I would like to see is an experienced player keep notes during a game with comments on why they chose to do something. 

And by the way, in case you missed it --- I READ THE MANUAL.




fvianello -> RE: I DON'T want my money back ! (1/28/2008 5:58:32 PM)

quote:


I have no idea whether I should declare war now or wait 3 years while building. There is so much information to put together that I find myself overwhelmed. (The complexity is a good thing, but players new to this game have to find a way over the initial learning hump.


That's a different kind of question: you're asking about strategy, not game rules, and as you can imagine the answer is complex. Should you wait ? it depends who you are playing; nations here are VERY different. France should strike fast and hard; Russia could maybe wait.

About strategy, you can find a lot of hints and tricks around; the first, biggest help is probably taking a look at how things went historically. I can assure you that the game makes a good work in trying to replicate the mechanics of napoleonic wars.

Anyway, keep in mind that I know people playing EiA by 20 years and still wondering how to choose the best battle chit. That's why I like this game.



SamuraiProgrmmr -> RE: I DON'T want my money back ! (1/28/2008 6:26:20 PM)

The point is, that having an idea of what to do will help immensely with absorbing the 'rules' on how to do it.



Alex777 -> RE: I DON'T want my money back ! (1/28/2008 7:20:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HanBarca

I'm just tired of people complaining about a manual they never opened once.


Dude, we READ THE MANUAL (see our posts in this thread). The question is whether you read our posts before responding to them.



zenmaster -> RE: I DON'T want my money back ! (1/28/2008 7:24:08 PM)

I also don't think the interface is that bad.

I admit that I played the board game many years ago in college and loved it, but I never even really read the manual.
( I have skimmed it a few time for reference such as which countries make up Ottoman, Minor Country Moral, etc....)

I was able to click my way through the interface.
I could not spot one piece of info and posted a question and somebody here showed me where I could see the stacks's morale.

I also read the forums about how to use the "AutoSetup" feature which make my quick start much easier.
I probably restarted 4-5games the first night I was playing as I was trying to work stuff out.

But by the end I had it down and never even picked up the manual by that point.

I'm not saying a Tutorial would not be nice.
Maybe the manual could be better (I have not fully read it yet....).

However, the UI was intuitive enough for me to pick it up.

If you read the forums, you also must realize the position that Marshall and others were in.
I suspect if Marshall had held off releasing too much too soon, some of the members may have stormed his home and forced him to release the game at gunpoint :>>>

So long as updates and add-ons continue to flow for this game over the next few months I will be happy with my purchase.



Alex777 -> RE: I DON'T want my money back ! (1/28/2008 7:37:55 PM)

Well, it's not what I would call a disaster.  Like everyone else, I was able to understand the interface after a bit of work.  The annoying part, I think, is the suggestion that those who are complaining either (1) didn't read the manual; or (2) should have realized that the program is marketed to those who played the board game (as if that would somehow solve the UI difficulties).



76mm -> RE: I DON'T want my money back ! (1/29/2008 12:48:10 AM)

Hmmm, I'm very interested in this game but have never played the boardgame, and the overwhelming feedback on this forum is that the game is difficult to figure out how to play. So I'm holding off for now until the AI is improved a bit and a better manual/tutorial appears. I've been playing wargames for 30 years but don't have much patience for poor UIs or manuals, so I'm standing by for better feedback. I doubt I'm alone...



tgb -> RE: I DON'T want my money back ! (1/29/2008 12:57:33 AM)

I don't know - I'm no genius, and I had never played EiA before (but I had played lots of other wargames).

First time through I experimented. As each phase came up I read the chapter on that phase, absorbed what I could, and learned the interface. After the first few months of doing this I felt I had a decent grasp of the "wherefores", if not the "whys".

After that I read the manual cover to cover. Then I started my first "real" game as GB, coming to the forum for clarification on fine points that were still eluding me.

The I read the manual AGAIN, cover to cover. AT this point I feel I have a full grasp of the game, even if I still have my "D'oh" moments (forgetting to buy factors for Free States, for example).

All in all I'd say it took 2-3 weeks of daily play with the manual open to learn the game and it's system.

Compared to some of the Paradox titles, that's nothing (hello, Victoria!)



pzgndr -> RE: I DON'T want my money back ! (1/29/2008 1:29:17 AM)

Well said tgb. I never played EiA before either and somehow managed to to figure out the interface in a couple of days and then get into playing the game.

For every squeaky wheel complaining about how impossible it is, there are several other newbies who figured it out. It really is not that difficult.



fvianello -> RE: I DON'T want my money back ! (1/29/2008 1:57:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tgb
Compared to some of the Paradox titles, that's nothing (hello, Victoria!)


my god, Victoria!! THAT'S a game I was never able to learn.



mariom1au -> RE: I DON'T want my money back ! (1/29/2008 3:26:57 AM)

Interesting reading.
Rant mode on.
I am in the same boat as far as not wanting a refund but there are quite a few things that have been changed without thinking of the ramifications on how you play the game.
The user interface is a bit clunky but once you have played around with it you more or less can work it out, but where does it tell you how to play. One example that gave me the [sm=00000018.gif] was how do you initiate a siege? A very simple thing when you know what to click but I certainly couldn't see it documented anywhere.

My bigger concerns are the lack of combined movement, the effect of paying 4pp to DOW a major power, the effect of extra fleets (in both combat and counter limits), the pp effects of the combat system and transport fleets (enough said).
I could probably come up with some more but I am inclined not to push it. I want to see this as a successful game for Matrix but also as a good game to play. I am certainly hoping that the patch(es) will fix the major issues, however as an experienced player of EIA I don't get how some of this stuff got through playtesting.
Oh and please don't take this as an attack on the playtesters I don't know the politics of what occurred behind the scenes.
Rant mode off. Hopefully I can start posting nice things to say in future.
Cheers



NeverMan -> RE: I DON'T want my money back ! (1/30/2008 4:20:31 PM)

Tutorial needed. This is a COMMERCIAL GAME made by a COMPANY. Some of the posters here treat this game as though it were some community project freeware, which it is NOT. It's a $70 game. Let me repeat, a SEVENTY DOLLAR GAME!! That's the most expensive computer game I have ever even considered buying.

That said, the very little I did play of the game came pretty easy. Although I found, at that time, the UI to be ugly, out dated and clunky (which it looks like it still is, like some 1985 pixel programmer put together the graphics), I didnt' find it difficult to "use", in the sense that I could move my corps, make attacks, make builds, etc, etc.



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