oil and beans and bullits? (Full Version)

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freeboy -> oil and beans and bullits? (1/27/2008 10:08:05 PM)

As we are looking a number of WW2 scenarios, is it realistic to add a different type of supply, oil?
It is not in the code, so for now one would need to use events to simulate losses of Baku fields, a desaster for the red army.Other? Without the oil from the DEA the JApaneese air and fleets would be hard pressed when their pre war reserves dried up too.
I am thinking of the different WAW scenarios, but not exclusively.
Mobile troops could be a higher supply user, even more than they already are, and oil sites, could be even more productive..

Perhaps limiting some supply only "oil" sights.

Anyone care to comment ??



emcgman -> RE: oil and beans and bullits? (1/27/2008 10:26:24 PM)

Not having created any scenarios, but using limited supply points to simulate `oil' resource sounds like the easiest way to go.

It's a function that's already in the game.

I think that's one of the real strengths of the engine. You can simulate just about anything with it.

Production, experince, etc, it's all in the game.



SMK-at-work -> RE: oil and beans and bullits? (1/27/2008 11:35:37 PM)

The WAW scenario uses "manpower" and I believe oil can be done using a similar mechanism....whatever it is...



freeboy -> RE: oil and beans and bullits? (1/28/2008 3:37:32 AM)

I have heard several theorist talk about hte Germans in 42 by passing Stalingrad and cutting off the red armies oil from the south. They may not have been able to use much of it, BUT neither would the red army, creating a much differrnet 43 44.. Currently in waw if you have supplies, any supplies then your mobile force move, "I do not think you can limite sft to use a particular type of supply, but it would be nice ...



SMK-at-work -> RE: oil and beans and bullits? (1/28/2008 4:30:53 AM)

This map shows some of the major russian industrial locations - taking Stalingrad would not have cut off oil from the Caucasus, because it went to the northern Caspian sea ports and then by rail and pipline, not up the volga river - http://history.sandiego.edu/cdr2/WW2Pics2/82027bg.jpg and http://history.sandiego.edu/cdr2/WW2Pics/81735.jpg

In fact oil deliveries from the Caucasus were slashed in WW2 - see http://www.sturmvogel.orbat.com/SovOil.html - deliveries from Baku, Grozny and Maikop were about 27,600,000 tons in 1939....but only about 13,000,000 tons in 1945 - the Soviet Union fought the war with about 55-60% of its pre-war oil supplies. (see http://www.sturmvogel.orbat.com/sovprod.html)



tweber -> RE: oil and beans and bullits? (1/28/2008 5:58:02 AM)

I thought about Oil but felt the scenario was complicated enough.  I think an interesting way to implement Oil would be to count the oil hexes that a power has.  If they have enough, ship, air, wheel, and tracked mobility is unimpeded.  If it is not enough, they you could decrease this movement for the regime's turn.  You could also make a 'synthetic oil plant' location type that could be produced at the appropriate cost.



freeboy -> RE: oil and beans and bullits? (1/28/2008 6:22:54 AM)

so the game is that flexible to hinder movemnt through an event? wow thanks .. worth looking into imo



seille -> RE: oil and beans and bullits? (1/28/2008 3:23:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

so the game is that flexible to hinder movemnt through an event? wow thanks .. worth looking into imo


Of course it is ! Already used in the very early scenario russia 1941 (winter) with
a limited event engine (compared to the one available now).



mtvaill -> RE: oil and beans and bullits? (1/28/2008 9:02:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweber

I thought about Oil but felt the scenario was complicated enough. I think an interesting way to implement Oil would be to count the oil hexes that a power has. If they have enough, ship, air, wheel, and tracked mobility is unimpeded. If it is not enough, they you could decrease this movement for the regime's turn. You could also make a 'synthetic oil plant' location type that could be produced at the appropriate cost.


This would make for an interesting scenario. It would be even better if it could be usable by random games.



freeboy -> RE: oil and beans and bullits? (1/28/2008 10:18:20 PM)

SMK, I meant to clearly state that Germany could have BI passed Stalingrad in summer 42, ran toward the Caspian and cut off oil, causing a HUGE loss for the reds, who would be force to import oil from the US vi Vladivostock or Land Rout throu asia or Murmansk.. Interesting about hte oil though.. I think caudsing a few sft types to slow down was impossible , is it correct that you can cause a sevear mobility decline to only moterized troops, ie hourses not affected?



SMK-at-work -> RE: oil and beans and bullits? (1/29/2008 3:06:55 AM)

Yeah but bypassing Stalingrad isn't really a "real world" option due to its position - to cut off Caspian oil you have to capture chapaev...and the roads & rail to there all pass through Stalingrad.

IIRC the Sov's laid a really rough railway somewhere along the northern Caspian area down to the Caucasus - but it was just rails laid on the soil with no bedding - could only take light and slow trains and was easy to KO - but also very easy to repair.  Plus the Sov's had naval transport in the Caspian to support ops.  The Germans didnt' have the sea capacity there, and didn't do things like lay rough and ready railways - so they would quickly come up against bit logistics problems.......which were, IMO, the real reasons that prety much all their offensives ended in 41-42.

As wargamerswe tend to look at the troops, the gun size, the armour thickness & forget that at het end of 1000+ mile long supply lines the poor ol' German army just didn't get enough men, oil, food and ammo to win!

Capturing the Caucasus would be a more reasonable option to deprive the USSR of oil - although it's worth noting that the Germans couldn't get any oil out of Maikop despite occupying it for a year so it might not have helped them much.

In any event of loss of hte oil areas increased LL via Vladivostok would be a given IMO - the USA could supply all eth allied oil needs by itself in WW2 if it put its mind to it.  Of course this would have required a lot of work on the Trans-Siberian railway and diversion of resources from elsewhere in the war - so extending it for some unknown time.



Szilard -> RE: oil and beans and bullits? (1/31/2008 10:13:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweber

I thought about Oil but felt the scenario was complicated enough.  I think an interesting way to implement Oil would be to count the oil hexes that a power has.  If they have enough, ship, air, wheel, and tracked mobility is unimpeded.  If it is not enough, they you could decrease this movement for the regime's turn.  You could also make a 'synthetic oil plant' location type that could be produced at the appropriate cost.


Trying to work out how to do something like this for raw materials which have to be shipped from a different continent or whatever. The count-loctype check would work to give me a gross total, but I'm stuck trying to work out how to do the shipping part of it (I'd like to have on-map convoys & subs/raiders, not just abstract events).

Any thoughts?

Also, how to handle resource hexes which have been cut off ...



Szilard -> RE: oil and beans and bullits? (1/31/2008 11:47:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Szilard


Trying to work out how to do something like this for raw materials which have to be shipped from a different continent or whatever. The count-loctype check would work to give me a gross total, but I'm stuck trying to work out how to do the shipping part of it (I'd like to have on-map convoys & subs/raiders, not just abstract events).

Any thoughts?



I guess one way might be like this:

- Make up a new loctype for the distant resource areas. (Different loctypes for different areas, if necessary.)
- Stipulate that these resources have to be shipped by one or more defined convoy routes.
- Define "transport holding areas" along these convoy routes. The convoy is represented by the cargo ships within these holding areas. The "capacity" of a convoy route is defined by the holding area on the route with the least number of cargo ships (ie the weakest link). Use CheckSFTypeInArea on the holding areas to determine this.
- Count up the resource loctypes under control using CheckLocType. Reduce proportionately if the sum of convoy capacities is less than some limit. Deliver the result into a RegimeSlot.
- Set RegimeSlotCost on ItemTypes to deplete that RegimeSlot on production as appropriate.

Think that'd work?

The goal is to make shipping a scarce & vital resource which has to be managed very carefully & which needs to be protected. The holding areas get placed so as to make them appropriately vulnerable to enemy raiders, air and subs.




tweber -> RE: oil and beans and bullits? (1/31/2008 5:56:01 PM)

If want to get the transport aspect of resources, I think there are 2 fundamental approaches:

- Get a 'Check supply path (x,y,x',y')' put in place.
- Define 2 types of supply - really cheap supply that can only be built in a resource location and more expensive supply that can be built anywhere.  Second one is probably easier.



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