Surrender mechanics (Full Version)

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Disintegration -> Surrender mechanics (2/4/2008 7:04:00 PM)

1796 game, playing as France. Austria fell quickly and the ruthlessly opportunistic Russians, Prussians, and Swedes decided to pile on Britain. This led to the division, distraction and partial destruction of the British fleet which meant I could land a decent army in Scotland and eventually occupy England, but not before smashing two different invading British armies.

At that point,a cycle of surrenders occurred that surprised me. British morale would dip to -980 or so, and they would surrender to another nation. Following this their morale would pop back up to -800 for a turn. Since I was still sitting on London their morale would drop again and they'd surrender to someone else again. They successively surrendered to Sweden, Russia, and Prussia, and finally surrendered to me about 6 turns after their morale first dropped below -900. The Russians and Swedes had previously beaten English fleets, but during the interval in question none of the other countries involved did anything that would cause a major morale hit to Britain.

What's the cause of this bizarre routine? Shouldn't a surrendering nation surrender to the nation that has an army camped on its capital? Is there some sort of national animus playing into this - i.e., the English hate the French so much they'll surrender to anyone else first - or is it a built-in bias against the human player? And why should national morale rise several hundred points after a surrender when the condition that forced the surrender is in no way relieved by it?

Also, what determines the number of surrender points? I haven't been able to determine any order in the process, nor do diplomats seem to make any difference. It's always a total of 4500, 6500, or 7000 - I have yet to see a surrender that wasn't one of these totals.

Finally, is there any way for a victorious power to reject a surrender and put the squeeze on for more concessions? After all, if I'm Napoleon invading Austria or Prussia for the 2nd or 3rd time my goal is not a negotiated peace and a small territorial transfer, it's to crush my rival sufficiently that it can no longer threaten me, at least for several years. Napoleon certainly didn't accept the RL equivalent of a 4500-point surrender from Prussia in 1806-7! (I haven't tried to add up all the points that treaty was worth, but between the loss of half of Prussia's territory, the severe reduction in the army, and the massive indemnity it seems to me it was well in excess of 10,000.)



jkBluesman -> RE: Surrender mechanics (2/5/2008 11:04:20 AM)

See it this way: the British surrendered to all other nations to be able to concentrate on you, the most dangerous enemy having already landed an army on the island. The rise of moral is due to the surrender and surrender means one step further to peace.



ericbabe -> RE: Surrender mechanics (2/5/2008 3:33:03 PM)

The rule is that when the National Morale check fails, opponent(s) are randomly chosen and surrender is given.  We could possibly change this rule for the next edition of COG, make it surrender to the most powerful opponent first, or to the one who caused the most casualties during the current war.  I personally like the random rule, as it makes it harder to game the National Morale rules, but I'm open to general input on this subject.

When a nation surrenders, it regains some national morale, representing the relief people feel at having fewer opponents to fight.

If you have an army parked on their capital, they'll quickly lose the National Morale they gained and should surrender to you in short order.  So my guess is that in most situations this isn't much of an issue beyond a few months' delay in gaining a nation's surrender.

You can reject a limited surrender but not a regular surrender.  If you don't want to give the foe the opportunity to surrender, you can declare "total war", but this presents some additional difficulties above regular war.



Disintegration -> RE: Surrender mechanics (2/5/2008 7:58:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

I personally like the random rule, as it makes it harder to game the National Morale rules, but I'm open to general input on this subject.



I can see that, but perhaps it could be weighted - that would still prevent the player from knowing exactly when to expect surrender, but make the less rational results rarer.

It might also be a good idea to let a nation have a small chance to keep fighting for another month no matter how low morale has gone - call it the "Charles XII rule".

quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

If you have an army parked on their capital, they'll quickly lose the National Morale they gained and should surrender to you in short order. So my guess is that in most situations this isn't much of an issue beyond a few months' delay in gaining a nation's surrender.



True, but when playing France and at war with three or four nations at the same time, those months can be critical! (That wasn't the case in my recent game, I was just irritated at the British' Churchillian refusal to admit defeat. Don't they know they're supposed to sue for peace like civilized nations do after battlefield disasters?)

That rationale makes sense, though.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

You can reject a limited surrender but not a regular surrender. If you don't want to give the foe the opportunity to surrender, you can declare "total war", but this presents some additional difficulties above regular war.



I don't remember seeing that in the manual or in the diplomatic menus in the main map screen - how do you declare it? What are the difficulties, and how does a total war end?

Thanks for the answers!

(And, as always, please take my questions and opinions as feedback on a great game, not complaints about its quality!)



Malagant -> RE: Surrender mechanics (2/8/2008 4:09:55 AM)

Disintegration,

I haven't played the game in a long time (since FoF distracted me :P) and had to look up Total War too. Here's the blurb I found in the manual:

quote:

A nation may spend a diplomatic action to declare Total War on another nation (but the cost is two diplomatic actions if the nation has at least two to spend). A nation targeted by Total War may not surrender – war will only end when either all of the targeted nation’s cities are captured, or when the aggressor surrenders. A nation targeted by Total War receives additional guerilla support from its populace, as well as sympathy from AI controlled nations in the form of improved Attitude (see the Attitude section below). It costs 50 Glory points to declare total war (see Glory below).



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