6 mk50 hits to kill an akula? (Full Version)

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jackyo123 -> 6 mk50 hits to kill an akula? (2/4/2008 11:16:59 PM)

hi folks

decided to re-acquaint with an old friend - havent played harpoon since 2002 gold.

Seems like the same old issues with ai and air strikes (going straight to target) are there, but i can live with that -

but the damage model seems to be broken. It took *6* torp hits to sink an akula sub. First one hit it at the rear. Didnt kill it, but the sub stopped moving. Was able to relocalize, and fired another. Another hit.

Ok, no sinking message. Speeded up time. Still nothing. So fired 4 more mk50's. Two hit, 2 missed. Still nothing.

Planes returned to base. Reacquired about 2 days later, the sub is now moving at cruise speed (same sub, confirmed in scenario editor - was listed as 'damaged' but was making turns for 15 knots after 4 torp hits!). Got it again - now 5 hits. Still no sink.

Fired off *8* more mk50's, which rapid fire detonated on the sub - *finally* killing it.

So it took at least 6 - possibly as many as 13 - hits to kill that sub.

Needless to say, the scenario sort of lost any sparkle at that point.

Has anyone else seen this issue?



Divefreak -> RE: 6 mk50 hits to kill an akula? (2/4/2008 11:35:21 PM)


quote:



but the damage model seems to be broken. It took *6* torp hits to sink an akula sub. First one hit it at the rear.
So it took at least 6 - possibly as many as 13 - hits to kill that sub.



The Akula has 138 DP

The Mk 50 has 23 DP

HTH René



SteveF2006 -> RE: 6 mk50 hits to kill an akula? (2/5/2008 12:51:30 AM)

Is that realistic? I've noticed that sub hunting is MUCH more difficult in the new game. Any thoughts?



Warhorse64 -> RE: 6 mk50 hits to kill an akula? (2/5/2008 2:29:55 AM)

[shrug] Most Russian subs have double hulls specifically to deal with the threat of lightweight air-dropped torpedoes. It's not too unreasonable to expect that sometimes those defences will work as designed. OTOH, I've killed Akulas with a single hit from an 11 DP Mk 46, too. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes your opponent does.



TonyE -> RE: 6 mk50 hits to kill an akula? (2/5/2008 2:41:27 AM)

Yes Warhorse, critical hits can result in a lot more damage being applied than the base damage points of the weapon, as you've noticed, sometimes a lot more!



jackyo123 -> RE: 6 mk50 hits to kill an akula? (2/5/2008 3:53:50 AM)

quote:

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[&o]

I guess its time to start editing the weapons ... my first hit was a stern shot, dead in the rear of the sub. I could see 2, maybe 3 hits - but turning 15 knots after *5* hits? And then having to rapid fire 8 more torps to guarantee a sink?




trader -> RE: 6 mk50 hits to kill an akula? (2/5/2008 5:03:06 AM)

Today I killed an old Foxtrot with a single Stingray LWT - Surface launched. The other 4 fired by the 2 * Lynx Mk3's all scored hits.

Fairly realistic, I would think, considering what the Stingray was built to counter, and the vintage of the enemy sub.

I've had cases where Latest gen Russian subs (Akula, Sierra, Oscar) have evaded all/nearly-all torpedoes fired from an MPA (Mk 50's, Mk 46's, Stingrays). Then it becomes a matter of firing enough torps with a good enough solution from close enough. And hoping for the best.

Also realistic, I think. It takes into account the improved countermeasures, improved manoeuvrability, etc.

Most Russian nukes were faster and deeper diving than the western equivalent. Plus the double hull mentioned earlier. Just cause the US/UK don't use it does not mean it is not a great idea. They are as a rule more survivable, and that is reflected in the game. I have lost loads of Western SSN's to single LWT's (western or Russian). I have occasionally killed Akulas with one LWT. Not often, though.

Tactics can be adapted to deal with this game 'quirk'. Send out some more assets, for example. Attack from 2-4 different directions - surround the bastard with torpedoes. That alone will boost the probability of scoring a critical hit.

I don't think the best answer is to hotrod a weapon to deal with this quirk. Unless it carries a nuke, no LWT can carry very much explosive, and that will obviously drive the damage potential. A nuke LWT is something I have made before, and enjoyed using after all weapons were 'free'. These days I try to resist the temptation to make such weapons, unless there is a historical basis (eg, the cancelled ASW-SOW - Sea Lance).

Live Well.



SmittyG -> RE: 6 mk50 hits to kill an akula? (2/5/2008 6:21:04 AM)

While all that is said is true, what has been omitted is the effects of the one hit on the outer hull. A gaping hole will cause the noise level to go up astronomically. It should be very easy to re-acquire, and additional torpedoes should be more likely to hit, since they have a much louder target to home in on.

In addition, the outer hull is not a pressure hull, and is not as strong as a pressure hull. Going fast would possibly cause additional damage. It would seem that a more realistic model would be to increase the noise level and limit the speed after a hit.

Smitty



NefariousKoel -> RE: 6 mk50 hits to kill an akula? (2/6/2008 11:17:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warhorse64

[shrug] Most Russian subs have double hulls specifically to deal with the threat of lightweight air-dropped torpedoes. It's not too unreasonable to expect that sometimes those defences will work as designed. OTOH, I've killed Akulas with a single hit from an 11 DP Mk 46, too. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes your opponent does.



While true, the Mk50 Barracuda was made with a Directed Energy warhead specifically because of the double hulled Soviet subs. It's likely not 100% effective, no, but it should help.

Pressure Hull criticals are a big deal in sub damage. Hopefully it's modelled similarly in HCE as it is in the tabletop.



jackyo123 -> RE: 6 mk50 hits to kill an akula? (2/6/2008 4:56:16 PM)

well, I doubled up on all the damage done by surface fired torps against sub targets (red and blue sides).

I found it to be much better. Now, 2 to 3 hits do the job - which, as one of the posters pointed out, maybe reflects the fact that, indeed, a big hole in the outer hull of a sub is probably going to

a> make it noisier
b> slow it down (the akulu was at intermed depth turning 15 knots after 5 hits, and was HARD to localize)

So the upgraded weapon values, while maybe a bit jacked, remove one of the major annoyances I was having (the last one is inability to set complicated AI attack plans with aircraft - I wish you could set course/speed/sensor settings on patrols for based aircraft - too often i need to play without blue bases that are in the 'path' of red flights, or i pick them up way too early - a badger with a very large fuel range should be able to fly a smart patrol without running overtop my bases!)



SteveF2006 -> RE: 6 mk50 hits to kill an akula? (2/13/2008 3:03:39 AM)

jackyo123 - Did you just go into the DB editor and increase the damage points per hit?



CV32 -> RE: 6 mk50 hits to kill an akula? (2/13/2008 6:41:12 PM)

The HCDB database supplied with the game incorporates the damage point (DP) model and values from Harpoon 4/4.1/High Tide paper rules. This will remain the case for the foreseeable future.

Whether cumulative damage can degrade a submarine's acoustics is something for the wish list, I guess.



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