Is MLB Better Now Than in the Past?

Is MLB Better Now Than in the Past? (Full Version)

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KG Erwin -> Is MLB Better Now Than in the Past? (2/8/2008 11:40:16 PM)
This is a serious question. I still follow my favorite team (the Pirates), and they have a beautiful ballpark. That being said, I still find myself drawn to simulating games in a bygone era, and playing in long-gone parks. I focus on a team that no longer exists (the Brooklyn Dodgers). I really have no idea why I do this. I am progressive by nature, but I'm a history fan. I've thought about this, and it comes back to the players, the long-dead (and a few still living) hall-of-famers and others who have become larger than life, despite their human foibles. We read their stats, and see their pictures and sometimes on film. That must be it. Just like old-time movie stars, I suppose. Do others here find themselves in similar circumstances? Does modern-day baseball still hold its appeal to you, or are you drawn to "the old days", for whatever reason? PS There's more to it, I think. Has the era of "heroes" come to a permanent end?

Jestre -> RE: Is MLB Better Now Than in the Past? (2/9/2008 12:14:21 AM)
I only play old timer leagues, almost exclusively Deadball baseball. I love the deadball game, bunting, hit and run, stolen bases etc but mostly I love the players from that period. Ritters "Glory of their Times" along with other great books on those incredible players maintain a significant portion of my library.

GNDN -> RE: Is MLB Better Now Than in the Past? (2/9/2008 6:16:08 AM)
I liked it when it was more of a game, less of a business. Today, it feels like the game is incidental, just a means to push product. IMO, the NFL is so much farther down that path than the MLB.

emcgman -> RE: Is MLB Better Now Than in the Past? (2/9/2008 6:08:56 PM)
What I do, is start a fictional league, but starting in the year I was born, 1952. Not quite the same gameplay nostalgia that you're describing, but still a cool historic feel. I just can't start a present day league at all. I tried a couple times, but it's like too much future shock! My favorite thing is scouting minor league talent, making trades. The greatest reward of the game is seeing a young player that I've scouted and traded for grow into a great player, helping my team to win more games. I sim most games. I might play out an occasional game. I do greatly enjoy the ball motion and wish the graphics of play by play were even more realistic and 3d.

dneely -> RE: Is MLB Better Now Than in the Past? (2/9/2008 7:52:28 PM)
Like KG I am an old time fan. I live in AZ so I follow the D-Backs and watch them on TV but rarely go to the ballpark due to the cost! Teachers have NO money. I grew up as a Brooklyn Dodgers fan and lived in Washington DC so I was also a big Senators fan. When you are young you have enough energy to root for 2 teams I guess. Based on his post on this tread Jestre and I are brothers separated at birth [:'(] because I read and re-read every book I can find on the early years of baseball. I love the names, the language, the characters and the style of play back then.....I guess I am a "crank" As I have often posted on this board I want PureSim to be THE baseball sim that faithfully recreates that era......................PLEASE [&o]

ET11 -> RE: Is MLB Better Now Than in the Past? (2/10/2008 5:54:43 PM)
I can not stand today's game. I left in 1994, the strike ruined it for me and the steriods, but the players today to me are just overpaid softball players, there is no more basics in the game, bunting, stealing, hit n run, it's all about the longball and strikeout. So I ALWAYS play with a fictional universe as I can't stand to play with today's players, or I play a team from the 80's. I agree, teachers deserve what baseball players get in salary.

Silverbullet -> RE: Is MLB Better Now Than in the Past? (2/10/2008 6:17:51 PM)
I play as the Brooklyn Dodgers of 1947 (the team of my youth) or the 1969 NY Mets (the team that I root for now). As far as todays baseball I still follow the Mets, but my deep love is for Minor League ball. I live in New Jersey and have four minor league teams within a reasonable driving distance.

Bustoff -> RE: Is MLB Better Now Than in the Past? (2/11/2008 5:20:21 PM)
I "discovered" baseball in 1958, and between then and 1968 I must have gone to at least 20 games a season at the old old Busch Stadium, and then the newer old Busch Stadium. I could wax poetic about the sights, sounds and smells that made each of those games memorable, but it would make for a very long post. Back then, quite simply, it was a game. The players were just that--players. Some of them were heroes, or champions, or whatever, but they didn't...I'm looking for a word here...flaunt (?) themselves as such on the field or in public. They were just guys who were lucky enough to play a game for a living, and they didn't let it go to their heads. As a kid, I could look up to them as role models for how they played, not how much money they made. Somewhere back there, baseball stopped being a game and became a business. GNDN touched on this, and he is on point. Players are no longer players but commodities to be invested in. Fans are no longer fans, they have become customers--sales prospects, if you will. The game itself has almost become incidental--a necessary evil only because the owners haven't figured out they can get rid of it and still make money. Almost everyone who cut their teeth on the baseball of the 80's, 90's and 00's has no idea what the game used to be and what they missed out on. Don't get me wrong. I still like baseball. I can't help it, it's part of who I am. But dammit, I used to love it. Where have you gone, Joe DiMaggio? A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

Jestre -> RE: Is MLB Better Now Than in the Past? (2/11/2008 6:36:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bustoff I "discovered" baseball in 1958, and between then and 1968 I must have gone to at least 20 games a season at the old old Busch Stadium, and then the newer old Busch Stadium. I could wax poetic about the sights, sounds and smells that made each of those games memorable, but it would make for a very long post. Back then, quite simply, it was a game. The players were just that--players. Some of them were heroes, or champions, or whatever, but they didn't...I'm looking for a word here...flaunt (?) themselves as such on the field or in public. They were just guys who were lucky enough to play a game for a living, and they didn't let it go to their heads. As a kid, I could look up to them as role models for how they played, not how much money they made. I grew up in the Philly area in the early-mid 60's and well remember our trips to Connie Mack stadium. Every game at least two players would be sitting on the fence next to the dugouts signing autographs before the game started (FOR FREE!!!!). Players were much more approachable and "normal". I lived in a beach resort in Delaware and Chris Short's mother lived there, Chris had a summer home there too. We would go over to his house when he was there and talk to him and get an autograph on his bb card. Short and his mom would get tickets for friends in the town, the year round population of the town was only about 1200 so everyone knew everyone else. Just seemed like a whole different world back then.

Bustoff -> RE: Is MLB Better Now Than in the Past? (2/11/2008 9:37:28 PM)
I hear you, Jestre. I really hate to sound like some old fogy doing the "Back when I was a boy..." ramadoola, but yeah. Money changes everything. A couple of Cardinal players--Lindy McDaniel and "Vinegar Bend" Mizell--lived near my neighborhood, and me and the gang used to go by their homes every now and then, hoping for a little "brush with greatness." Mostly they weren't home, but I do recall Mr. Mizell (yes, we called him Mister) treated us all to a soda one time, which we enjoyed at the picnic table in his backyard. There were no bodyguards, no lawyers, and no butt-kissing assistants present. Just ol' Wilmer and us kids, having some laughs for a half hour. Could this happen today? Don't bet on it. I don't think it occurred to any of us to even ask for his autograph. We just stopped by to say hello.

Beach23BoyP -> RE: Is MLB Better Now Than in the Past? (2/12/2008 1:18:04 AM)
There is no answer. Why? 1) Today is the "good old days" for certain segments of the population. It has been that way since the beginning of time. 2) Players "do" make a lot of money today -- because what they do "makes" a lot of money. Thousands don't pay to see teachers teach. 3) Players today "are" the best ever to play the game. No team from the 1930s could play with the teams of today. (Football -- Does anybody really think that the Green Bay Packers of 1967 could beat the Patriots or the Giants of today???)

KG Erwin -> RE: Is MLB Better Now Than in the Past? (2/12/2008 2:15:26 AM)
BeachBoy is correct in his statements, and I didn't wanna bring it up, but the perception of baseball is a reflection of youthful enthusiasm and social mores. Yeah, the players were once "regular folks" with extraordinary talent, but that's because most of them held regular jobs in the offseason. They had to do so, because of the constraints of the reserve clause. The owners held all the cards. The "good old days", in truth, weren't all that great. We didn't recognize the social problems and racial injustices when we were kids. In any case, the contact between players and fans has suffered irreparable harm. That's the sad part, and that's what has damaged baseball's standing the most. Yeah, they are, for the most part, now just commodities.

Jestre -> RE: Is MLB Better Now Than in the Past? (2/12/2008 2:41:12 AM)
What Beachboy said may be true but todays youth will never experience baseball with the same perspective that those of us that grew up prior to the financial explosion did. There is no "magic" in baseball now, even the baseball card experience is completely different now with cards being a business too. Baseball has morphed from a social experiment to a financial experiment on all levels. There will never be a book written on todays players that can compare to Ritters "The Glory of Their Times" because the players of today are completely alien to the players from 50-100 years ago. I have experienced both sets of players, I know which I prefer....

Bustoff -> RE: Is MLB Better Now Than in the Past? (2/12/2008 4:36:23 PM)
BeachBoy and KG make some good points. I agree that pretty much everything looks better through the filter of nostalgia. When you're young, your senses and emotions are much more acute, and whether it's baseball, bicycles, cheeseburgers, or sex (or any combination thereof), it all seems better. Everything looks worse in black and white. (Wow, I cited Paul Simon twice in this thread...). Like Jestre, I still feel that baseball has lost something special, and maybe it's that "contract" between the players and fans that KG mentions. One final comment, and then I will shut up...probably. BeachBoy, you say "Players "do" make a lot of money today -- because what they do "makes" a lot of money. Thousands don't pay to see teachers teach." I must take exception to your analogy. What teachers do also "makes" a lot of money. Compare the salaries of high school graduates against those of high school dropouts...and compare the salaries of college graduates against those of high school graduates. Nuf said.

ET11 -> RE: Is MLB Better Now Than in the Past? (2/12/2008 4:58:20 PM)
I don't agree with Beachboy's comments #2 or #3, though I respect anyones opinon and stance, I don't think that the players today are the best in anyway shape or form, they do not play the game, they either hit or they don't, no one lays done bunts, steals as much, expansion has made triple a guy's major leaguers, I do have a problem with today's game and players and owners, again I never said Beachboy was wrong, I just do not agree. I'll give you an example, one year Juan Gonzales of Texas didn't make the All-Star team as a starter and then told MLB and fans that if he wasn't voted a starter then he wanted no part of the game at all, man, you got to be kidding me.

Jestre -> RE: Is MLB Better Now Than in the Past? (2/12/2008 5:32:32 PM)
What ET said is true, todays players do not 'play' the game as well as players of the past. However, you cannot argue that todays players are bigger, stronger and faster. They are way ahead of yesterdays players in training methods, physical therapy, medical procedures etc. While yesterdays players were quaffing beers and eating burgers todays players are pumping iron and spending hours in the cages. Think of all the machines and medical technology available now that wasnt available just 30 years ago. Think of all the time spent of film study and technique breakdowns that were unheard of 30+ years ago... On the other hand if you take Walter Johnson, Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth as teenagers and brought them to the present then they would be every bit as dominant with todays technological advances as they were in their time.

Beach23BoyP -> RE: Is MLB Better Now Than in the Past? (2/12/2008 10:15:28 PM)
Hey -- I'm never wrong! BTW, I don't watch MLB at all. I didn't even watch the Astros in the WS and I live in Houston. BTW, my mother works with Craig Biggio's wife at Pink Ribbons (Breast Cancer Awareness) and she's a wonderful person (so says my mother). Anyway, I watch English Premier League Football (Soccer) with a passion. For me these are the "good old days of English football". I'm sure thousands in England would disagree -- but I'm 57 and I'm like a little kid with regard to the EPL. And those guys make tons of money. Love to all teachers. Mrs Luton was the best Latin teach in the world. I'll never forget her! And I'll never forget The Mick!

ET11 -> RE: Is MLB Better Now Than in the Past? (2/12/2008 10:44:31 PM)
HA! Nice, sadly, I do not watch much myself anymore, mostly read it in the paper, I also watch the EPL, I watch more soccer than I do MLB, it has replaced it also racing, I just have an anger towards the greediness of the sport and how IMHO Bud Selig has let alot of this happen while he is looking the other way and make owners money through the steriod era, but I do love the GAME of baseball, so I go to minor league and high school games alot more, and I have 2 teams here in Chicago, well one really, the other one is just a glorified triple a club that hasn't won a championship in over a 100 years.

CrashDavis -> RE: Is MLB Better Now Than in the Past? (2/15/2008 5:54:12 PM)
I propose: - We abolish the players union - Re-institute the Reserve Clause - Retro every players salary to 1950 levels - Institute a salary freeze - Ban corporations from owning a team - Fire the current commissioner - Contract the MLB from 30 teams back to the original 16 teams (we'll let the Dodgers stay in LA, Giants in SF, A's in Oakland, etc). - Pass a resolution declaring the Cubs the 1994 World Series Champions (with a some clever sabermetrics, we might be able to even prove it could have happened). - Mandate all ballparks have the same on-field dimensions from plate to foul-poles and plate to center-field. - Arm all umpires with side-arms to help expedite the flow and speed of the game.

LetsPlay2 -> RE: Is MLB Better Now Than in the Past? (2/15/2008 6:46:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CrashDavis I propose: - We abolish the players union - Re-institute the Reserve Clause - Retro every players salary to 1950 levels - Institute a salary freeze - Ban corporations from owning a team - Fire the current commissioner - Contract the MLB from 30 teams back to the original 16 teams (we'll let the Dodgers stay in LA, Giants in SF, A's in Oakland, etc). - Pass a resolution declaring the Cubs the 1994 World Series Champions (with a some clever sabermetrics, we might be able to even prove it could have happened). - Mandate all ballparks have the same on-field dimensions from plate to foul-poles and plate to center-field. - Arm all umpires with side-arms to help expedite the flow and speed of the game. [:D] [:D] [&o] [&o]

Bustoff -> RE: Is MLB Better Now Than in the Past? (2/15/2008 7:43:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CrashDavis I propose: - We abolish the players union - Re-institute the Reserve Clause - Retro every players salary to 1950 levels - Institute a salary freeze - Ban corporations from owning a team - Fire the current commissioner - Contract the MLB from 30 teams back to the original 16 teams (we'll let the Dodgers stay in LA, Giants in SF, A's in Oakland, etc). - Pass a resolution declaring the Cubs the 1994 World Series Champions (with a some clever sabermetrics, we might be able to even prove it could have happened). - Mandate all ballparks have the same on-field dimensions from plate to foul-poles and plate to center-field. - Arm all umpires with side-arms to help expedite the flow and speed of the game. How about "Incarcerate and waterboard the current commissioner." Firing is too good for him. [;)]

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