Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter (Full Version)

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Q-Ball -> Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter (2/15/2008 5:18:16 AM)

I was reading a thread with GH, and noticed an interesting CV battle, where his opponent seemed to have removed most Vals from his IJN CV's, and created a massive 200+ CAP of Zeros that proved to be impregnible. Interesting tactic, and got me thinking: What other tactics are out there to improve your chances in a CV on CV encounter?

I am familiar with a few basics, like:

1. Splitting your CV's into smaller TF's, even 1 CV TF's, to minimize number of TF's hit
2. Mixing in BB's to absorb attention so that other CV's might be left alone
3. Using LBA on Long Range Cap to throw a few extra fighters on CAP
4. Using CVE's with Zeros (as IJN), trailing the main CV's in much the same way
5. As IJN, loading Rufes onto your CS units, and ditching many of their float planes

What are some other ways out there for the vets that you maximize the results of your CV battles?



JeffroK -> RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter (2/15/2008 8:08:26 AM)

Great tactic, makes it hard to strike back at your attackers though.

Gameiness rating 10/10
Only point 2 would have much historical basis.
Point 3, I assume you mean Fighters, fair enough while within range.



histgamer -> RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter (2/15/2008 8:48:16 AM)

Well wernt most US CV taskforces only 2 CVs... at least early in the war didnt battlegroups only hold 2 carriers per or maybe even 1?



Barb -> RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter (2/15/2008 1:10:13 PM)

10/1942. IJN landings on Tulagi and Guadalcanal covered by 8 CVs. USN bases at Noumea, Luganville, 3RN CVs at Sydney, US CVs at Noumea.

I have used 5 US CVs in 5 CVTFs against 8 IJN CVs in 2 TFs (with rule max 4CVs in a hex). With a little luck from weather (one his group with 4 CVs and one mine group with 1 CVs were in stormy weather) I exchanged Akagi for LadyLex and damaging each 7 remaining enemy CV by at least one Bomb from SBD.

Then I run for safety, replenish my carriers, joined 3 RN CVs and run back. IJN remained on station (carriers damaged, air groups depleted). In less then 4 days i sunk 8 IJN CVs (Akagi, Kaga, Soryu, Hiryu, Shokaku, Zuikaku, Ryujo, Shoho), 2 IJN BBs (Yamanto, Mutsu) and wrecked havoc to his landing convoy with 19th ID on board.
USN ships have nor a scratch on their painting (i think my opponent forget that setting all aviable fighters for CAP will not allow his bombers to attack my CAPed carriers).

Having only 1 CV in TF is a great thing if you have enough escorts for them. As IJN i would go with 2 CVs per TF for big carriers - as Carrier Divisions.



Cavalry Corp -> RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter (2/15/2008 3:11:49 PM)

Q
Qhat year arte you talking about and I will give my advice and are you PBEM stock?
Michael



Q-Ball -> RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter (2/15/2008 4:02:40 PM)

Good question, you're right you have to think in terms of time frames.

'42 through early '43 is one timeframe. It's probably not smart for the Allies to engage without Avengers, and definitely not without F4F, so probably the 5/42 to 2/43 timeframe--which is classic air parity.

Another timeframe is '43; later in the war, but still pre-Hellcat.

After the Hellcat, it probably changes again.

I am playing Big-B. I actually just HAD a huge CV battle, wondering what I could have done better as IJN. 12/42, sank 4 USN CV's and heavily damamged another that just got away, in exchange for 3 CV, and medium damage to 2 others. I lost the first turn exchange for sure, only salvaged the battle because he had zero operational CV at end of first day, and I still had some, damaged and airgroup depleted though they were.



Cavalry Corp -> RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter (2/15/2008 4:49:34 PM)

OK Q

I can only speak for Japan here .

I have two PBEM one is in October 42 already 2 allied CV were sunk I think in July mainly because I think his TF were seperated by two hexes - result allied slaughter he fights with his CV he dies.
My stategy now is to run riot but not seperate the KB but keep it moving about ( it will have to go for refit in December ) .I have captured tons of terriotory and although the 2 cv lost will come back i intened to make that road longest possible . My TF are divided up along the lines of speed now the KB needs to arrive fast when needed , slow CV are kept together . Generally we wait for them to catch up .

The other game is more difficilt and its in May 43 . All CV are in play but I lost one CVL early on . The allies are being very cautious as the KB has already made one massive raid on columbo ( as it did IRL ) and sunk many ships . I have another raid under preperation that will test the theory below without too much risk . The allied CV are covering landings on Baker . I do not need that Island .

My theory now is to only fight under the following- remember there are alot of AA upgrades through to June 43.My plan is a face off with the allied in about October despite the new fighters but only if a good opportunity comes up .I will have one more CV by then and the Hhyga and ise with the massive flak ( plus 18 Rufe each ) plus the Zeke on the CV .

1. Each TF has 2 CV , 1 CVL and or one CVE ( the CVE and probably the CVL just has fighters ) , 2 BB ( slow ones are OK - ISE , HYUGA , MUSH AND YAMATO are best and I take out the fast ones as I would like to use them for hit and run ) , 1 or 2 CA , 2 CL with good AA and about 6 DD
I am no longer bothered by speed , I want best AA defence extra fighters from the CVE and diversions in the TF ( CVE and BBs)

2.I will fight within less than 5 hexes of a base and that base will have many fighters for LRCAP . This base if possible should have a size 3 port and FLeet HQ, It must akso be a base the allies badly need and away from LBA
3. I may bait forward with one cvl and a BB and at least 2 ASW TF of DD if possible . 2 AO a few hexes back
4. I had one risky idea that was to put up 90% CAP and set the bombers on rest hoping I can take out his strike without all my bombers being lost , that depends if the allied has suffered some loss of fighters before.
5. Lots of recon planes to always see where the allies are if you cannot see them - best move away
6. try to keep a bout 4 subs for picket with the glen and about 4 subs hoping for a lucky shot
7. Get some luck
Hope this helps

Michael





niceguy2005 -> RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter (2/15/2008 8:01:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

as to #3, absolutely. I often try to operate carriers where I can get assistance from LBA.

As to packing CVs with fighters, it's just so ahistorical. I will tell you this also. If it was my enemy doing it they would get away with that tactic exactly once. The next time, I would do the same and bring a fleet of BBs to close with and sink his carriers.



Q-Ball -> RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter (2/15/2008 11:03:00 PM)

Cavalry, good advice! I think you are right, speed matters much more for the attacker than defender; if you are on your "home turf", as you will be late in the war as Japan, speed doesn't matter much.

In '42, I did do that with my CV; Sho, Zui, Hiryu, Soryu as "fast" group, Akagi, Kaga, Ryujo, Zuiho, Shoho as "slow" group, with Junyo, Hiyo falling in the category of "even slower". FAST group sailed with CA/DD only, slow group with Kongos and CS units.



Mike Solli -> RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter (2/15/2008 11:38:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

as to #3, absolutely. I often try to operate carriers where I can get assistance from LBA.

As to packing CVs with fighters, it's just so ahistorical. I will tell you this also. If it was my enemy doing it they would get away with that tactic exactly once. The next time, I would do the same and bring a fleet of BBs to close with and sink his carriers.


Didn't the Allies run some tests with some "CAP CVs"? I believe they tried it and found it not to be practical. I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say ahistorical.



niceguy2005 -> RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter (2/16/2008 12:55:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli


quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005



as to #3, absolutely. I often try to operate carriers where I can get assistance from LBA.

As to packing CVs with fighters, it's just so ahistorical. I will tell you this also. If it was my enemy doing it they would get away with that tactic exactly once. The next time, I would do the same and bring a fleet of BBs to close with and sink his carriers.


Didn't the Allies run some tests with some "CAP CVs"? I believe they tried it and found it not to be practical. I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say ahistorical.

I'm not aware of a CAP experiment. I could see the allies trying something like that late in the war to try to defend against Kami's.

The CVE in the Pacific was more of a CAP platform, but it was to control airspace for other operations, not go raiding.

I couldn't see any admiral ever wanting giving up his offensive weapons....just my opinion though.

Besides going with all fighters smacks of taking advantage of the Uber CAP shield in witp, which isn't really realistic.



Mike Solli -> RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter (2/16/2008 1:02:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli


quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005



as to #3, absolutely. I often try to operate carriers where I can get assistance from LBA.

As to packing CVs with fighters, it's just so ahistorical. I will tell you this also. If it was my enemy doing it they would get away with that tactic exactly once. The next time, I would do the same and bring a fleet of BBs to close with and sink his carriers.


Didn't the Allies run some tests with some "CAP CVs"? I believe they tried it and found it not to be practical. I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say ahistorical.

I'm not aware of a CAP experiment. I could see the allies trying something like that late in the war to try to defend against Kami's.

The CVE in the Pacific was more of a CAP platform, but it was to control airspace for other operations, not go raiding.

I couldn't see any admiral ever wanting giving up his offensive weapons....just my opinion though.

Besides going with all fighters smacks of taking advantage of the Uber CAP shield in witp, which isn't really realistic.


I remember reading somewhere that the US considered (briefly) using all fighter CVs. They threw out the notion because fighters on CAP tended to protect their carrier more than other carriers. Gotta find that reference.....



ctangus -> RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter (2/16/2008 2:44:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: flanyboy

Well wernt most US CV taskforces only 2 CVs... at least early in the war didnt battlegroups only hold 2 carriers per or maybe even 1?


In '42 there were occasionally 2 CV TFs, but more often 1 CV TFs, often operating in close proximity. The USN was concerned about limiting the damage from any one strike. Just like an allied WITP player is. I certainly wouldn't consider it gamey for an allied player to do that.

The point could be argued about the IJN. KB sailed as one big TF, but the ships were much more spread out than a USN CV TF and the AAA was therefore much less concentrated. It's certainly arguable that they should all be in one TF. Someone - I forget who - once suggested that the best representation of KB would be single TFs of 1 CV and 1 plane guard destroyer for each CV. With the rest of the screen as a separate surface TF. AA against any one strike would be negligible, but the risk for losing many CVs at once would be lessened.

I usually split the difference. The IJN carriers operated almost exclusively in divisions, so I make a TF of 2 CVs for each of the historical divisions as soon as I can after PH. That's about all you can escort, anyway. Later, once I suffer some losses, I might reorganize it. E.g. in one game KB currently has 2 divisions (TFs) each of 2 CVs & 1 CVL. 2 other CVs are in the body & fender shop and another 2 are now diving attractions.



ctangus -> RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter (2/16/2008 2:59:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I remember reading somewhere that the US considered (briefly) using all fighter CVs. They threw out the notion because fighters on CAP tended to protect their carrier more than other carriers. Gotta find that reference.....


I've read the same. I'm sure it's in Lundstrom, and maybe other places, but quickly looking I couldn't find the exact reference either. I do recall that they were considering it either shortly before or after Eastern Solomons.

After Midway the IJN also reorganized their carrier divisions. 2 CVs (primarily) for attack & a CVL for (primarily) CAP over the task force. Though the CVLs usually, if not always, carried some strike planes. E.g. at Santa Cruz Zuiho was carrying 21 Zeros & 6 Kates.

Perhaps there's a point where changing your CV air groups becomes "gamey" but I wouldn't in principle object to a few changes from either side.



John 3rd -> RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter (2/17/2008 9:47:40 AM)

I too can only speak from the Japanese players perspective on this subject.

Anyone who has read my AARs know that I love to immediately form TWO KB TF and as construction is completed on the 2 CVLs and Junyo-Hiyo add a THIRD TF into the mix.  My KB TF composition usually consists of 2 CV and 1 CVL with a BB, several CAs, and 6-8 DD.  The faster CVs get a Kongo-Class BC and the slower ones get Mutsu and/or Nagato.  I also enjoy placing a STF in the same hex as a bomber magnet.  ANY time you can present the Allies with TWO targets instead of one, you are ahead.

Everything depends on how many American CVs are out there.  If you haven't sunk but one or two, then make sure you have at least 2 KB TF operating together.  In 1942 a force of 4 CV and 2 CVL should be able to handle just about anything the Americans can throw at you.  It will be bloody but you SHOULD win.

If you can sink 3-4 US CV in 1942 then you can be much more risky in using your carriers.  In my game against Canoerebel (Forlorn Hopes AAR), I have sunk FOUR US CVs for no losses.  I have CVs all over the board right now and even have a couple refitting in Japan.  There are 3 small CV TF operating around Australia, 1 CV TF in Japan, and yet another interdicting his operation between Wotje and Johnston Isle. 

It all depends on your status within the game.  I am bold and daring.  It has worked for me and it has COST ME!  Live by the sword--Die by the sword.

Other thoughts:
1.  RANGE  Always remember that you can strike from a farther distance then your opponent.  Hit from range 5 or 6 and knock the Allied down before they can ever take a shot at you.  I can retrain air groups but not rebuild CVs.

2.  CAP  I stay away from Stock now that I have seen the effects of uber-CAP.  Big B's Mod is better, RHS appears to be better, and Nik Mod is solid as well.  As to the CAP question, I always place my CAP at 60% and range 6.  The Zeros have decent protective numbers and the remainder provide enough cover for you to hit the Americans.

3.  I rarely tamper with the organic air groups; however, I do like to place an extra Chutai of Zeros or Kates on my 63 and 72 plane CVs.  If you have 4-6 operating together, you have the effect of adding another CVs worth of aircraft to your force.  It can really help in a brawl.

4.  CVEs--I really like using them as Fleet Auxillaries.  Rush their completion and place 27 of anything on them.  Most people like to go with 18 Zero and 9 Attack planes so the sorties don't come down too fast.  Four CVEs operating together field over 100 aircraft and that isn't anything to sneeze at.

5.  I like to have Yamato and Musashi operate in the STF with the CVs.  They have the magnificent ability to draw off Allied attacks.  If hit by a 1000lb bomb, all they do is break out the brooms to sweep off the scrap metal! 

For whatever it is worth...



niceguy2005 -> RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter (2/17/2008 5:47:53 PM)

I just had a CV engagement that highlighted the UBER cap problem.  Japan operated with its entire CV force in 1 TF, while the allies put 2 CVs per TF.  The result was an allied combined strike, while Japan launced 4 seperate strikes into the teeth of 100 Wildcats on CAP.  The japanese strikes were slaughtered.  It is highly unlikely the allied CAP could have operated in such a concerted manner.

Lesson, either Japan should split up its CVs into different TFs, the more the better, or the two sides should agree to operate CVs from 1 TF.



Cavalry Corp -> RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter (2/17/2008 7:38:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

as to #3, absolutely. I often try to operate carriers where I can get assistance from LBA.

As to packing CVs with fighters, it's just so ahistorical. I will tell you this also. If it was my enemy doing it they would get away with that tactic exactly once. The next time, I would do the same and bring a fleet of BBs to close with and sink his carriers.



I was only talking about the CVE . you have free choice what to put on them as they have no airgroup and I do not see reloading a CVL with 27 Zero and say 4 kates is that bad either . I would say it was more unhistorical to put more bombers on as they would not have much space to store munitions .
Anyway unless it had happened what is more unhistorical sounding than B25 aka Doolittle ?

Michael



AW1Steve -> RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter (2/17/2008 8:11:37 PM)

Or putting p-51Ds aboard Shangri-La? (Actually tested). Or regularly launching c-47's off Essex class carriers (Done frequently in the early 50's to support artic and antartic research).



bradfordkay -> RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter (2/17/2008 9:23:53 PM)

"Lesson, either Japan should split up its CVs into different TFs, the more the better, or the two sides should agree to operate CVs from 1 TF."

With the game engine penalizing the allies for having multiple CVs in one TF (at least until late war), I would never agree to this restriction no matter what side I play. Instead it is better to restrict the percentage of the CVs fighters that can be put up on CAP IMO.



niceguy2005 -> RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter (2/17/2008 10:43:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

"Lesson, either Japan should split up its CVs into different TFs, the more the better, or the two sides should agree to operate CVs from 1 TF."

With the game engine penalizing the allies for having multiple CVs in one TF (at least until late war), I would never agree to this restriction no matter what side I play. Instead it is better to restrict the percentage of the CVs fighters that can be put up on CAP IMO.

But you can't ground planes, whatever doesn't fly cap is going to escort. So either you blast the Japs out of the sky over their carriers or yours. In my case I had 100 planes on CAP and 100 in escort...that's for 4 CVs and 3 CVLs...hardly the entire US fleet. The 20 Zero escorts, 20 bomber strikes got blown away against the 100 cap and virtually all my bombers got through his, despite heavy Wildcat losses.

What's unreal about this situation is that the game engine assumes that the 100 CAP fighters are everywhere at once, which they can't be. Unless there's something I'm not understanding this is a serious flaw in the game.



bradfordkay -> RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter (2/18/2008 4:16:31 AM)

I'm playing the CHS Experimental mod and there is (so far - we're into early '43 right now) no UberCAP in this version.

Chez and I even agreed to drop out HR limiting CAP to 60% since we're playing the "Billy Mitchell Mod" - the bombers (nearly) always get through! Air losses are much more reasonable in this version, and it doesn't seem like shipping losses are that much higher - but that could just be due to a mutually conservative style of play.

BTW: I'm still dreaming of getting the situations where I have 100 fighters to his 20. I'm still battling to keep it from being just the opposite!



Gen.Hoepner -> RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter (2/18/2008 3:53:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

I'm playing the CHS Experimental mod and there is (so far - we're into early '43 right now) no UberCAP in this version.




Sure?...take a look at my AAR...400 zeros on CAP can neutralize anything



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter (2/18/2008 4:35:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner


quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

I'm playing the CHS Experimental mod and there is (so far - we're into early '43 right now) no UberCAP in this version.




Sure?...take a look at my AAR...400 zeros on CAP can neutralize anything


There is no end to trots' gaminess is there? Maybe he should play the new Battlefield Heroes game, with Disney like animation?



farticus -> RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter (2/18/2008 4:39:43 PM)


A new term for the forum maybe?

Ubergamey [;)]



Q-Ball -> RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter (2/18/2008 5:43:45 PM)

Thank you everyone for your help. This is particularly important, because there are good ideas here to squeeze out capability from CVE's and lesser ships, which will allow me to cover the Indian Ocean with CV support. I have committed way more planes and ground troops there than he suspects in defense, but still nice to have some CV insurance.



ChezDaJez -> RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter (2/18/2008 10:37:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

I'm playing the CHS Experimental mod and there is (so far - we're into early '43 right now) no UberCAP in this version.

Chez and I even agreed to drop out HR limiting CAP to 60% since we're playing the "Billy Mitchell Mod" - the bombers (nearly) always get through! Air losses are much more reasonable in this version, and it doesn't seem like shipping losses are that much higher - but that could just be due to a mutually conservative style of play.

BTW: I'm still dreaming of getting the situations where I have 100 fighters to his 20. I'm still battling to keep it from being just the opposite!


Unfortunately you won't have to wait too long for that given the Corsair's ability to force multiply itself. And the bombers definitely do get through... as Hornet, Yorktown, Akagi, Kaga and Hiryu can attest.

Chez



Hortlund -> RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter (2/23/2008 12:44:11 PM)

I truly do not understand why having multiple CV TFs operate in the same hex is not considered gamey, when the only reason for the manuever is to break up Japanese attacks while taking advantage of all the different CVs CAP.



castor troy -> RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter (2/23/2008 3:17:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

I truly do not understand why having multiple CV TFs operate in the same hex is not considered gamey, when the only reason for the manuever is to break up Japanese attacks while taking advantage of all the different CVs CAP.




why should it break up Japanese attacks? Most times you see one big strike on one CV Tf that then gets annihilated. And I can still remember the Betty atacks on my three CV TFs in our game. It was one big attack from Gili Gili (I doubt you had 200 bombers there) that attacked and put torps into several ships. Not 12 attacks with 3 bombers each that were all shot down. I know this is going the way with thereīs no difference in having 6 TFs or 28... [8|] besides that itīs surely as often a disadvantage to have your CVs split as it is an advantage.



witpqs -> RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter (2/23/2008 11:44:09 PM)

If multiple CV's are in the same TF, that one big strike can hit all of them.



castor troy -> RE: Ways to Win your CV on CV Encounter (2/24/2008 12:17:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

If multiple CV's are in the same TF, that one big strike can hit all of them.



well, this leads to the next discussion: what do you prefer? Two Cvs sunk or 4 damaged? I always prefer the ships that are sunk! Other people prefer the damaged carriers...



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