The interface is .... how could I say ... (Full Version)

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nukkxx5058 -> The interface is .... how could I say ... (2/16/2008 11:13:16 AM)

The interface is ... hummm ... I don't find the word.




delatbabel -> RE: The interface is .... how could I say ... (2/16/2008 11:35:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: nukkxx

The interface is ... hummm ... I don't find the word.


Did you look behind the sofa? [:'(]




TheHellPatrol -> RE: The interface is .... how could I say ... (2/16/2008 10:03:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: nukkxx

The interface is ... hummm ... I don't find the word.

[sm=Christo_pull_hair.gif] FUBAR




nukkxx5058 -> RE: The interface is .... how could I say ... (2/17/2008 8:01:35 AM)

LOL yeah ... something like that ... ;-) lol




Soapy Frog -> RE: The interface is .... how could I say ... (2/18/2008 6:23:04 PM)

Yup. It's true, words fail me too when I try to talk about it.

Hopefully by now Marshall is aware that the interface needs improving :D




pzgndr -> RE: The interface is .... how could I say ... (2/19/2008 6:02:17 PM)

I think the basic architecture of the interface is fine. We could use some more information here and there, and maybe some popups would help. I'd particularly like to see my MP's information highlighted somehow in the status box so I can find important news. My current struggles are related to playing the game well, not worrying about the interface.

We're not likely to see an overhaul of the interface. I don't believe it needs one. Rather than saying ambiguously negative things about it, some specific and practical recommendations for improvements would be more helpful.




Kwik E Mart -> RE: The interface is .... how could I say ... (2/19/2008 6:18:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

I think the basic architecture of the interface is fine. We could use some more information here and there, and maybe some popups would help. I'd particularly like to see my MP's information highlighted somehow in the status box so I can find important news. My current struggles are related to playing the game well, not worrying about the interface.

We're not likely to see an overhaul of the interface. I don't believe it needs one. Rather than saying ambiguously negative things about it, some specific and practical recommendations for improvements would be more helpful.


color coded for each MP would be even better....green for russia, white for austria, blue for france, etc....




Soapy Frog -> RE: The interface is .... how could I say ... (2/19/2008 6:41:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr
We're not likely to see an overhaul of the interface. I don't believe it needs one. Rather than saying ambiguously negative things about it, some specific and practical recommendations for improvements would be more helpful.

This has been done at length in other threads; however I might point out that a lot of interface pain can be alleviated simply by being A) consistent and B) adopting some de facto standards of the windows world; e.g. consistent left-click and right-click functionality, windows that can be opened and closed (and even moved) with a consistent set of controls, having right-click context menus and so on.

Even better, being able to "pick up" counters with the mouse, drag and drop, ctrl and shift click for controlling multiple counters, all of these things would vastly improve playability.

Feedback is still very poor in general. The information screens are usually hard to read. The log is impenetrable. See if you get me started we'll be here all day ;)




Marshall Ellis -> RE: The interface is .... how could I say ... (2/19/2008 8:05:45 PM)

I've already second guessed myself for the interface. The interface is basically a 5 year old design. Can it be improved? You bet! ALOT of information in this game!
I'm ALWAYS open to ideas...Keep'em coming!




pzgndr -> RE: The interface is .... how could I say ... (2/19/2008 8:19:30 PM)

quote:

This has been done at length in other threads


There have been a lot of comments, for sure. This thread, however, started off by offering nothing constructive.

Better to say I don't like this particular aspect of the interface, this is why I don't like it, and here's my recommendation to change it so it's more useful/helpful.

quote:

I'm ALWAYS open to ideas...Keep'em coming!


See? We just need to be specific and reasonable and hopefully we'll see some improvements made. Thanks Marshall.




Grimrod42 -> RE: The interface is .... how could I say ... (2/19/2008 8:35:19 PM)

Soapy Frog made some suggestions...




yammahoper -> RE: The interface is .... how could I say ... (2/19/2008 10:27:52 PM)

 
I confess at first the interface really bugged me.  But after playing for a while, it has become second nature.  It is not as bad as I first thought.  It actually has a certain rhythem to it that I now like.

That said, I want to be able to see the results of battles other nations fight.  How much money the other nations have on hand RIGHT NOW.  Small things that bugged me like not being able to place a corp in the land phase or stand a corp down in the land phase just required getting use to the rules and playing by them, even if I disagree with the logic.

yamma




Grognot -> RE: The interface is .... how could I say ... (2/19/2008 11:09:41 PM)

It's functional.  In some cases, it's not particularly efficient, but it's quite functional.

Some random notions --

As the contents of fleets are open knowledge, why not summarize the total H/L/T counts underneath the stack of icons?

Likewise, in a nation-summary view, it would not be unreasonable to show total H/L/T, and total under-construction H/L/T.

In the economic phase, an 'iterate through my free states' mechanism would be good.  Or even combining them into one screen -- i.e. select nation from list, and the unit types shift.  Ship-building would still require another click (either list of ports, or map click).

Enforced peace duration -- should be noted in the diplomacy matrix.

Battles -- a marker on the map where a battle took place in the last month might be good.  Even better if it's clickable to get a summary (subject to FOW rules/options).  Maybe best if either participant can share the battle summary -- in-game, not cut-paste-e-mail -- with other nations if he likes... but in this case, I would recommend the ability to *lie* (i.e. edit what others see) in this summary.

Broad view -- a whole-map view showing nothing but corps movement (e.g. arrows whose intensity and/or size varies with number of corps) from region to region, and control.

In the peace-term selection screen, it might be interesting to be able to indicate which terms you intend to impose, to any of your allies who are also at war with the victim... with the caveat that it also shouldn't necessarily be completely honest.




Grimrod42 -> RE: The interface is .... how could I say ... (2/19/2008 11:29:33 PM)

One really nice thing would be to have different counter sizes for corps and garrisons.
It is not easy to tell whats what on the map.
Also some way to easily Identify cavalry corps, guerrillas , cossacks etc




Grimrod42 -> RE: The interface is .... how could I say ... (2/19/2008 11:31:58 PM)

Another thing that would be really good is a notation toll to gather all into one place the information you gather about your enemies, corps strengths etc.
Might as well use the power of computation.




Marshall Ellis -> RE: The interface is .... how could I say ... (2/20/2008 8:40:09 PM)

Grimrod42:

I do agree with your counter comment. The counters were one of the toughest things in the games to do! Our problem was that the map was not desgined for this size counter and the counters weren't really designed for any map! LOL! (If that makes sense). I'm a fan of the simple square counters in the standard game and we discussed this a few years back but too much work had already been done with the current counters so we moved on it. There are some obvious spacing issues in some of the areas that can make it difficult to see where a unit really is. I'm hoping we can help this by maybe adding some zoom boxes on the map to help clarify in a future release when our legs get good and sturdy (i.e. no outlying game crashes, major bugs, editor released, etc).





RooseBolton -> RE: The interface is .... how could I say ... (2/20/2008 10:51:32 PM)

While yes the UI can seem daunting, and there seem to be a few quirks in the system (little ones imo), after playing many hours of the game vs the AI (not the sharpest tool on the shed the AI), at least i have mastered the AI, and see little trouble in playing the game.

..Just keep playing solo, you'll figure everything out....it does work

Steve





CapnKnuck -> RE: The interface is .... how could I say ... (4/28/2008 6:05:50 PM)

I have two requests:

1 - I wondered whether there might be a move as stack feature, similiar to the naval phase, where you can move a flotilla as a stack?   Except, in the land phase, you would instead hold down the control key and select all the corps you wanted to participate in the stacking movement, and then you can just move all as one, rather than having to move each corps individually?

2 - Is it possible to colour code the log?  The flat text file in which the log is currently displayed is not exactly intuitive.  You have to look very hard for historical information, yet another thing which slows down the pace of the game.  (See Dancing Bear's comments about speeding up game play).  For example, if I'm not bothered about seeing the outcome of France, Austria and Prussia's turns, but very intersted in, say Great Britains, rather than have to figure out where in the log GB's stuff is, I should be able to jsut look for the pink text.   In addition, a collapseable log might be useful.  For example, Austria and Prussia may go through an entire game without having to consult the Naval log, so in addition to collapsing/expanding game logs, they could be colour coded for quicker reference?

Thanks,
The Cap'n.




NeverMan -> RE: The interface is .... how could I say ... (4/28/2008 9:33:00 PM)

Marshall,

You talked about "zoom" boxes, why not just tell where the counter is when you click on the counter? For instance, if the counter is in Paris AND in the City, it could say "Territory: Paris, City" and if not in the city "Territory: Paris" or something like that, although I'm fine with the "zoom boxes" too.

ONE THING, I wanted to add if you are going to eventually work on "zoom boxes" is a ZOOM OUT function. It would be great to be able to zoom out some.




Grognot -> RE: The interface is .... how could I say ... (4/28/2008 10:07:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CapnKnuck
1 - I wondered whether there might be a move as stack feature, similiar to the naval phase, where you can move a flotilla as a stack? Except, in the land phase, you would instead hold down the control key and select all the corps you wanted to participate in the stacking movement, and then you can just move all as one, rather than having to move each corps individually?


Regarding this -- if memory serves, this has been brought up before but at least two considerations indicate against it -- at least for true, uninterrupted stacking movement.

One is that certain events are supposed to be allowed as each corps individually moves in -- notably, the mobilization of Austrian insurrection corps. Allowing full uninterrupted stack movement weakens this somewhat -- much less so than in the boardgame, because EiANW controls when they appear and not the Austrian player, but somewhat still.

The second bit is that moving in stacks contradicts the foraging rules -- each corps is supposed to forage after its individual movement, and is penalized by the presence of other unbesieged corps in its end area at the time of foraging (which may be before other corps arrive in or leave from that end area).

That said, I see no reason that a pseudo-stack movement couldn't be done where picking up and moving a whole stack is interpreted as a sequence of individual moves, provided there's (a) a way to tweak the order of the moves, (b) foraging is still done on an "after each corps' move" basis, and (c) a chance to change orders if interrupted by such things as insurrection corps.




vonpaul -> RE: The interface is .... how could I say ... (5/17/2008 6:34:25 PM)

I think most things can be forgiven...ai, yeah lots of games fall down there, bugs..yeah seen it when a game is pushed out too early, but IMO the UI is the one massive suprise with EIA, it is woeful.

I'm hoping Marshall, you have flexibility in your code to overhaul it, cause no matter what you do with the rest of the game (fix the bugs, fix the AI) only fanatical EIA grognards would ever consider sitting down for the hours/days to become familiar with the nuiances of it.




Marshall Ellis -> RE: The interface is .... how could I say ... (5/18/2008 5:29:58 PM)

vonpaul:

Code is always flexible :-) How would you have done this?






vonpaul -> RE: The interface is .... how could I say ... (5/21/2008 10:35:27 AM)

Marshall, I'll come back to you in full on the weekend, but very quickly at a high level I think would like to see the advantages of a PC used to breakdown a quite complex game. ie a more contextual interface (with the full interface accessible via alternate methods).




Marshall Ellis -> RE: The interface is .... how could I say ... (5/21/2008 3:19:02 PM)

Got it!





Grapeshot Bob -> RE: The interface is .... how could I say ... (6/3/2008 11:11:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

[There have been a lot of comments, for sure. This thread, however, started off by offering nothing constructive.




Maybe we should make a tutorial for people to make suggestions and criticisms?

Sorry, I couldn't resist. It's just so funny because the lack of tutorials is kind of an issue with the game itself.



GSB




Maladominus -> Hi all, sorry I'm a latecomer :( (6/15/2008 8:22:31 AM)

Hi all,

First of all, this will be my very first post to these forums. Please realize that I'm not new to Matrix strategy games. Heck, I'm an old school gamer... all the way back to Avalon Hill games (Third Reich!), and other quasi-miniatures games such as StarFleet Battles. So I count myself as a veteran wargamer, boardgamer (Milton Bradley wargames anyone?), RPG gamer (Traveller and D&D), and in modern years online MMORPG games. I've tried a little of everything, and I've done it all.

So why is my first post on these (forums) on this topic of the Empires and Arms UI? Well, as some of you can sorta guess.... it's because my heart was set on this game when I found out the old Avalon Hill EiA was going to become a beautiful PC wargame. Yes, I played the old Avalon Hill Empires in Arms. I'm not saying I played it extensively. I played a couple of campaign games at most, which was back around the early 1990s. I wasn't even a very competent player. My Austro-Hungarian Empire was always the first one crushed and steamrolled by any competent French player. Despite all that, the old boardgame was a thing of beauty!

When Matrix Games finally released this game (I never came here for the Beta, I don't enjoy doing Guinea Pig Work for buggy half-finished beta games), my heart sank when I realized that the UI is well.... I was at a loss for words.

To this day, I have not purchased this game. I've played many many games, and bought many in the past. And I know that the few games that have really "won me over".... those games are not just fun to play, not only do they have solid game mechanics, but those games also have GORGEOUS and stunningly beautiful production values. In other words, those are the kind of games with gorgeous miniatures pieces, or heavy-weight and artful game counters. Or maybe it was a game with a stunningly well-designed mounted playing board. The same thing goes with PC wargames that I've played in the past. The ones that I have completely enjoyed and cherished were the ones where everything about the game simply looked "polished".

Right, that's the word I think that we are looking for. Polish. It's not good enough that the game has good innards, and a solid playable set of mechanics and game design. It also has to look professionally designed, and pleasing to look at from an aesthetic standpoint. You see, part of enjoying wargames is the appeal of immersion. You want to be looking at the game components and the game board, and "feel" as if you were indeed a Marshall of France. Or that you were the powerful Czar of All the Russias, marshalling your forces to defend against the invaders. It's kinda hard to be immersed in any game when the "looks" and interface of the game is.... uhh.... well... not that stunning?

So, rather than continue to ramble on, I'd like to make at least one constructive suggestion. I suggest perhaps looking at the User Interface and production values of comparable contemporary PC wargames in recent past. My suggestion to look at is to look at the interface and maybe the "aesthetic design" of another Matrix wargame such as Gary Grigsby's World at War. Or perhaps learn and pick up something from the interface of similar "grand strategy games" such as the world-class appeal of the Europa Universalis games from Paradox Entertainment. The interface and look of the recently released Gary Grigsby's War Between the States looks reasonably nice too!

Maybe one of these days I'll pick this game up. But another hope is that one day, a future version of this game (Empires in Arms) will release with a stunningly appealing interface, looks, and aesthetics.






Gravit -> RE: Hi all, sorry I'm a latecomer :( (7/6/2008 8:21:32 PM)

Maladominus,

Lucky for you that you have waited to purchase the game (and perhaps never will).  I made the mistake of buying as soon as it was released, expecting the normal Matrix quality.  I own many Matrix titles and was quite the fan of Matrix Games.

However, for EiA, I've been sadly disappointed, and won't buy another Matrix game (even WIF) until this one is playable or Matrix offers up refunds to all of us who were misled into thinking that EiA was a prime time product.

I appreciate Marshall's good intentions and attempt to fix things, however, as the saying goes: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".  There should be a disclaimer on this game making it very clear that it is not a finished product.

Perhaps patch 1.03 will improve things, but based on the current track record, I am not holding my breath.




Edfactor -> RE: Hi all, sorry I'm a latecomer :( (7/8/2008 8:33:09 PM)

the thing i would like most is an economic popup that i could do all of my economics from.

A simple list followed by money/manpower available for your major power and all freestates under your control.  .




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