Type 93 Torpedo (Full Version)

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jwilkerson -> Type 93 Torpedo (2/26/2008 8:42:56 AM)

Is the Long Lance powerful enough in the game? Did some reading today and seems like I must agree that the Long Lance is not powerful enough in the game. Historically it seems like Long Lances sank many Japanese ships, hence, they should do so in the game. Yet so far, I have not seen any Type 93 torpedos sink any Japanese ships in the game. Hence it must be true that Long Lance are not powerful enough in the game!
[:D]

P486-87 A spread of six T93 torpedoes fired by Mogami hits and sink 5 Japanese units.

P488 After bomb hits from American SBD ... the fires ignited the torpedoes, which exploded about 1058 wrecking the ship [Mikuma]

P497-98 fearing an explosion of the remaining torpedos, the crew started to jetison them; but five exploded increasing damage and the fire amidships [Mogami] ... Akebono which then fired a T93 torpedo into the Mogami at 1240. The torpedo hit amidships on the port side, and the Mogami rolled over to port and sank at 1307.

P498 Since the No. 1 (starboard forward) torpedo tubes were loaded, the near miss ignited the torpedoes in the tubes. The detonating torpedoes started heavy fires that were fought unsuccessfully because additional torpedoes started to explode at 1100. ... At 1200 the fires detonated the remaining torpedoes ... the wreck of the Suzuya sank at 1320.

Source:

Lacroix, E. and Well, L., Japanese Cruisers of the Pacific War, Annapolis, Maryland: Naval Institute Press, 1997




daveja vu -> RE: Type 93 Torpedo (2/27/2008 5:26:19 AM)

Uhhh... am I missing something here?  I thought the Type 93 was a JAPANESE weapon used against ALLIED ships.

Unless you are talking about instances where the torpedo storage on a Japanese ship was hit and exploded, thus sinking the ship.  Given the large amount of torpedoes carried including the reloads, as well as the explosive power of the warheads, it's not surprising that quite a few Japanese ships were lost this way.  Mikuma, Suzuya, Chokai (to name a few) were lost primarily to hits exploding their torpedo storage. 




borner -> RE: Type 93 Torpedo (2/27/2008 5:44:05 AM)

No he has a point, although some is lost in the sarcasm. In the Java Sea battles a spread of LL's cruised a very long way and hit several "friendly" transports that were unloading. I do not think that "friendly fire" is included in the game at all though. The other instances should be covered by the critical damage and other damage resolution rules. Japan's DD's also had the issue of deck-mounted reloads. cut the time to fire another salvo by half compaired to US DD's, but was very dangerous. Think of what would have happened with an Oi class CL under file with 40 tubes and 20 reloads on deck. OUCH!




jwilkerson -> RE: Type 93 Torpedo (2/27/2008 6:33:19 AM)

Sorry, no sarcasm was intended ... my lol was inappropriate. It has been proposed by a forum member on the WITP forum, that T93 actually caused more damage to Japanese ships than they did to Allied ships. And I offered some evidence in support of that claim.

I am not absolutely sure that the claim is true. But I would be very interested in an exhaustive study of the question. And I would be willing to participate in such!

Perhaps of more value than T93 stats, were the reload systems on Japanese ships. These systems were clearly superior to American systems, yet the number of documented cases where this mattered in the war are small.




Prince of Eckmühl -> RE: Type 93 Torpedo (2/27/2008 7:17:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: daveja vu

Uhhh... am I missing something here? I thought the Type 93 was a JAPANESE weapon used against ALLIED ships.

Unless you are talking about instances where the torpedo storage on a Japanese ship was hit and exploded, thus sinking the ship. Given the large amount of torpedoes carried including the reloads, as well as the explosive power of the warheads, it's not surprising that quite a few Japanese ships were lost this way. Mikuma, Suzuya, Chokai (to name a few) were lost primarily to hits exploding their torpedo storage.



The problem was with the oxygen that was used as a propellant in the fish.

Other navies looked at using oxygen as a propellant, but rejected it because of its extreme volatility when mixed with other chemicals. They concluded that it was just too hot to handle in ship-borne weapons. The IJN adopted the weapon out of its belief that it would always be at a numerical disadvantage, and, therefore, they needed a weapon that would allow them to even the odds, They knew full-well that the torps were a menace to all aboard, in combat, or otherwise.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)




tocaff -> RE: Type 93 Torpedo (2/27/2008 1:48:05 PM)

History is full of such weapons that are as or more dangerous to those that use them than to the enemy.  The present day AFV Bradley could possibly fall into this category as it caused the size of the infantry squad manning it to shrink and the protection offered on the battlefield is doubtful while it does pack a good AT punch.




Joe D. -> RE: Type 93 Torpedo (2/28/2008 4:33:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

... Other navies looked at using oxygen as a propellant, but rejected it because of its extreme volatility when mixed with other chemicals. They concluded that it was just too hot to handle in ship-borne weapons. The IJN adopted the weapon out of its belief that it would always be at a numerical disadvantage, and, therefore, they needed a weapon that would allow them to even the odds, They knew full-well that the torps were a menace to all aboard, in combat, or otherwise ...


Didn't a Russian protoype (oxygen?) torpedo sink the Kursk after it imploded in it's forward hull.




Joe D. -> RE: Type 93 Torpedo (2/28/2008 4:43:29 AM)

Although the Bradley had such a high profile it was dubbed "the Holiday Inn on wheels," its Bushmaster chain machine gun was deadly; some Brads bristled w/specially mounted M-16s protruding from its sides -- just like a B-17 -- or a TOW missile mounted on top.

Re dangerous weapons: the US 50 cal machine gun needed its head space/timing set correcty, or it was a menace to its operator.




tocaff -> RE: Type 93 Torpedo (2/28/2008 3:18:21 PM)

The venerable MaDuece was a weapon near and dear to many a serviceman's heart for many, many years.




Mike Scholl -> RE: Type 93 Torpedo (2/28/2008 4:04:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

Although the Bradley had such a high profile it was dubbed "the Holiday Inn on wheels," its Bushmaster chain machine gun was deadly; some Brads bristled w/specially mounted M-16s protruding from its sides -- just like a B-17 -- or a TOW missile mounted on top.

Re dangerous weapons: the US 50 cal machine gun needed its head space/timing set correcty, or it was a menace to its operator.



The Bradley is a perfect example of "a horse designed by a committee." The end result might prove usefull in it's own right..., but is almost unrecognizable when compared to the original "bid specs"




Nikademus -> RE: Type 93 Torpedo (2/28/2008 4:55:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Sorry, no sarcasm was intended ... my lol was inappropriate. It has been proposed by a forum member on the WITP forum, that T93 actually caused more damage to Japanese ships than they did to Allied ships. And I offered some evidence in support of that claim.

I am not absolutely sure that the claim is true. But I would be very interested in an exhaustive study of the question. And I would be willing to participate in such!

Perhaps of more value than T93 stats, were the reload systems on Japanese ships. These systems were clearly superior to American systems, yet the number of documented cases where this mattered in the war are small.



It depends on one's interpretation. Myself....i don't agree with the claim because the majority of the explosions caused aboard ship were due to air attack.




daveja vu -> RE: Type 93 Torpedo (2/29/2008 1:26:25 AM)

I am not aware of very many "friendly fire" incidents where the Japanese accidently sank their own ships with their own torpedoes. The only one I'm aware of is the instance you cited where a spread of Mikuma's torps (Java Sea? Sunda Strait?) accidentally took out a group of Japanese transports.

I do seem to remember an American friendly fire incident during the Santa Cruz carrier battle where a ditching Avenger lost it's torpedo (why didn't he jettison it before ditching?) and it ended up sinking the destroyer Porter. Mk-13 torps had their share of problems early in the war (too slow, ran too deep, unrealistic altitude/speed launch limitations, bad exploders) but on the rare occasion they worked as designed, they could put pretty big holes in the sides of Japanese ships. The CVL Ryujo was lost primarily to a single catastrophic Mk-13 torpedo hit in the engine room, after enduring severe, but not fatal, damage from SBD-delivered 1000lb bombs.




jwilkerson -> RE: Type 93 Torpedo (2/29/2008 5:54:45 AM)

My point was not about friendly fire. But about damage to Japanese ships caused by T93. I gave four examples relevant to one class of Japanese CA.





Big B -> RE: Type 93 Torpedo (3/11/2008 3:35:38 AM)

LOL, Joe has ulterior motives for a study here - I suspect. [:D]

There was such a study done - I'll try to track it down.

B
quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Sorry, no sarcasm was intended ... my lol was inappropriate. It has been proposed by a forum member on the WITP forum, that T93 actually caused more damage to Japanese ships than they did to Allied ships. And I offered some evidence in support of that claim.

I am not absolutely sure that the claim is true. But I would be very interested in an exhaustive study of the question. And I would be willing to participate in such!

Perhaps of more value than T93 stats, were the reload systems on Japanese ships. These systems were clearly superior to American systems, yet the number of documented cases where this mattered in the war are small.






Big B -> RE: Type 93 Torpedo (3/11/2008 6:03:11 PM)

Joe W, this is what I had read earlier...
http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-067.htm

Were the Best Good Enough?

The Performance of Japanese Surface Forces in Torpedo Attack versus the expectations of the Decisive Battle Strategy.

By Joseph Czarnecki
Updated 16 April 2000

The acumen of World War Two Imperial Japanese Navy cruiser and destroyermen in torpedo attack is an accepted fact. The range and power of their Type 93 torpedo (dubbed the “Long Lance” by historian Morison) have become the stuff of legend. To call the Japanese surface forces the best at torpedo attack is easily defensible.

But were they good enough to meet the standard required for their own strategic and tactical preconceptions? Prior to Admiral Yamamoto Isoroku’s radical break with pre-war IJN strategy, the accepted method of engaging the US Fleet was a three fold process:

1) Attrition operations by submarines and surface force raids.
2) A night attack by fast battleships, Class A cruisers, and Special Type destroyers.
3) A daylight battle line engagement at dawn following the night attack. If the officer in tactical command judged it appropriate, the battle line could be committed to the night attack if that effort was going better than expected.

Torpedo attack was the cornerstone of the night attack, and a critical element of the day attack intended to rectify Japan’s initial 3:5 and worsening deficit in numbers. The night attack force was to launch an intricately coordinated long-range salvo of 130 torpedoes from 11 different groups using half their ready torpedoes. This salvo was designed to converge upon and hit 10 American capital ships with 20 weapons (a rate of ~15%).

After the initial salvo at long range (20,000 meters), the four Kongo Class battleships and 17 Class A cruisers detailed to the night attack force were to break through the American screen--suicidally if necessary--and clear the way for the force’s two torpedo cruisers and the light cruiser and 14 destroyers of a destroyer squadron to expend the remainder of their ready torpedoes in a close range attack from as little as 2,000 meters.

Once all ready torpedoes were expended, the night attack force was to fight its way clear, reload torpedoes, and execute further attacks if possible. Survivors would eventually join the battle line for the “Decisive Battle” at dawn.

The daylight Decisive Battle was also to feature torpedo attack, including an initial salvo of 280 weapons at long range. As this salvo began to hit, the battle line would open fire. This massive salvo was expected to cripple or sink 10 American capital ships. When the Japanese Admiral judged the situation ripe, the three light cruisers and 48 destroyers of three destroyer squadrons would charge (again, suicidally if necessary) to close range and expend the remainder of their torpedoes. This charge was expected to be able to ensure the destruction of 16 American capital ships.

The IJN’s battle plan reads impressively and dramatically, but it has numerous flaws. Most of these will not be discussed in this article. Here the principle question is thus:

Did the Japanese achieve the required 15% hit rate necessary to successfully execute their pre-war strategic conception of a Decisive Battle, had they fought the war in such fashion?

An examination of the historical record is necessary. During the Pacific War, there were 27 surface engagements of note:

1) 24 Jan 42 The Balikpapan Raid
2) 26 Jan 42 The Endau Landings
3) 19-20 Feb 42 The Battle of Badung Strait
4) 27 Feb 42 The Battle of the Java Sea
5) 1 Mar 42 The loss of HMS Exeter
6) 1 Mar 42 The Battle of Sunda Strait
7) 9 Aug 42 The Battle of Savo Island
8) 21 Aug 42 The Loss of USS Blue
9) 11-12 Oct 42 The Battle of Cape Esperence
10) 13 Nov 42 The First Naval Battle of Guadalcanal
11) 14-15 Nov 42 The Second Naval Battle of Guadalcanal
12) 29-30 Nov 42 The Battle of Tassafaronga
13) 26 Mar 43 The Battle of the Komandorski Islands
14) 6 Jul 43 The Battle of Kula Gulf
15) 13 Jul 43 The Battle of Kolombangara
16) 6-7 Aug 43 The Battle of Vella Gulf
17) 18 Aug 43 The Battle of Horaniu
18) 6 Oct 43 The Battle of Vella Lavella
19) 2 Nov 43 The Battle of Empress Augusta Bay
20) 26 Nov 43 The Battle of Cape St. George
21) 7 Jun 44 The Battle off Biak
22) 24-25 Oct 44 The Battle of Surigao Strait
23) 25 Oct 44 The Battle off Samar
24) 25 Oct 44 The Battle off Cape Engano
25) 26 Oct 44 The loss of HIJMS Nowaki
26) 26 Dec 44 The Battle of Ormoc Bay
27) 11 May 45 The loss of HIJMS Haguro

Of these I’ve rejected six for consideration due to their lack of any resemblance to the type of engagements that would take place in the Decisive Battle scenario, for the following reasons:

1) The Balikpapan Raid because the IJN escort never engaged the raiders.
2) The Endau Landings because the IJN chose not to use torpedoes.
5) The loss of HMS Exeter because this action was as predictable as an execution.
24) The surface phase of the Battle of Cape Engano for the same reason as 5).
25) The loss of HIJMS Nowaki for the same reason as 5).
27) The loss of HIJMS Haguro for the same reasons as 2) and 5).

The elimination of these actions from consideration in no way diminishes the measure of IJN effectiveness. In fact, including the results of the torpedo attacks (or lack thereof) in these actions would materially degrade the IJN’s score. In five of the actions, no torpedoes appear to have been launched, and in one other action between 40 and 56 weapons were launched with between 0 and 5 hits scored (the most likely number was 1).

Additionally, the ratio of combat forces engaged in the six actions eliminated was typically far greater than the IJN could expect to obtain at any point but after a successful conclusion of the Decisive Battle scenario.

The records available to me for many of these actions lack detail and do not specifically indicate the number of weapons fired by which ship, at which target, at what time, range and speed setting, and in some cases outright conflict. In some instances more detailed information was available. In these cases I state firm numbers. In others I qualify my estimates as “probable.”

My estimates are based upon several factors where available:
1) Best resolution of data from multiple sources.
2) Documented actions of other ships in the same action, particularly if belonging to the same unit (Cruiser Division, Destroyer Squadron, etc...).
3) Apparent Japanese torpedo firing doctrine at the time of the battle.

Prior to the First Naval Battle of Guadalcanal (13 Nov 42), Japanese torpedo firing doctrine appears to have been to fire half the torpedoes in the tubes in one salvo, then fire the remainder in a second salvo, then reload all tubes fired.

From the First Naval Battle of Guadalcanal through the Battle of the Komandorski Islands (26 Mar 43), torpedo firing doctrine appears to have been in flux, with some ships/units firing two half salvos and then reloading while others completely empty their tubes in a single salvo and then reload.

After the Battle of the Komandorski Islands, torpedo firing doctrine appears to have shifted to firing all tubes in a single salvo and then reloading.

In all fairness, I have included duds as hits in my calculations, choosing not to damn the aiming torpedoman for fuze failures. All actions included for consideration have been related to a type of action that might take place in the context of executing the Decisive Battle’s several phases. As few actions as possible have been eliminated in order to best represent IJN performance under conditions of both advantage and adversity. To merely assume that conditions would always favor the Japanese during the execution of their plan (even if it succeeded) violates Murphy’s First Law of Combat: “No operations plan survives first contact with the enemy.”

The synopses of the twenty-one surface actions under consideration follow:

3) The Battle of Badung Strait: Three RNN CLs, one DD, and eight MTBs and six USN DDs made a three wave attack on the IJN forces in Badung Strait. In two distinct phases of action, two and then four IJN DDs fended the ABDA ships off of the transports they were protecting. During the action, two IJN DDs launched a probable total of 8 Type 93 torpedoes, scoring 1 hit which sank the RNN DD Piet Hein. This is a probable hit rate of 12.5%. This action fits into the Decisive Battle scenario as representative of the potential of small units to hold off significantly larger forces.

4) The Battle of the Java Sea: One USN CA and four DDs, one RN CA and three DDs, one RAN CL, and two RNN CLs and two DDs attempted to attack the IJN invasion convoy headed for Java. Two IJN CAs, two CLs, and 14 DDs fended off the ABDA ships and inflicted serious losses on the opposing force but failed to destroy it completely. During the action the IJN ships executed 38 separate launches of a probable 164 Type 93 torpedoes, scoring 3 hits which sank the RNN CL De Ruyter, CL Java and DD Kortenaer. This is a probable hit rate of 1.8%, dismal for such a massive expenditure. This action fits into the Decisive Battle scenario as representative of a medium size engagement between one of the beam line Japanese night attack groups and a significant portion of the US screen. It shows how mutual maneuvering for position can deny both the attacker his objective and the defender decisive damage to the attacker.

6) The Battle of Sunda Strait: One USN CA and one RAN CL attempted to escape the Java Sea debacle via Sunda Strait where they ran into a Japanese landing in progress. Two IJN CAs, one CL and nine DDs scattered about the area moved to intercept, sinking the two intruders. During the action the six IJN ships executed 7 launches of a probable total of 37 Type 93 torpedoes, scoring 5 hits which sank USN CA Houston and RAN CL Perth. This is a probably hit rate of 13.5%. This performance is marred by an additional five hits scored on IJN transports and a minesweeper by a misaimed launch from CA Mogami. This action fits into the Decisive Battle scenario as representative of the chaos of having a small hostile unit slip into the midst of multiple friendly formations. This would cut both ways during the projected night battle.

7) The Battle of Savo Island: Five IJN CAs, two CLs and one DD attacked the landings at Guadalcanal, overcoming four USN CAs, one RAN CA, and seven DDs guarding the anchorage. Confused, damaged and separated into three formations, the Japanese force withdrew without exploiting its victory to attack the transport area. During the action the eight IJN ships executed 15 launches of 45 Type 93, 4 Type 8 and 12 Type 6 torpedoes, scoring 7 telling hits and 1 dud which damaged USN CA Chicago and sank USN CAs Vincennes and Quincy. This is a hit rate of 13.1%. This action fits into the Decisive Battle scenario as representative of one of the beam line night attack units engaging a significant portion of the US screen. It clearly shows the effect of confusion on even a force which is winning.

8) The loss of USS Blue: Having dropped off its Tokyo Express run, an IJN DD encountered two USN DDs escorting a pair of transports, making an attack of opportunity. The IJN DD crippled one USN DD which was later scuttled, but failed to follow up its success. The IJN DD made a probable single launch of 4 Type 93 torpedoes, scoring 1 hit which crippled USN DD Blue. This is a probable hit rate of 25%. This action fits into the Decisive Battle scenario as representative of how a small isolated unit can inflict damage, but not necessarily capitalize on it in the interests of self preservation.

9) The Battle of Cape Esperence: A USN force of two CAs, two CLs, and five DDs looking to intercept a Tokyo Express run encountered and ambushed its covering force of three IJN CAs and two DDs. The USN forces sank one CA and one DD and severely damaged a second CA, handing the IJN its first defeat in a surface engagement, but failing to intercept the supply run. During the action, one CA may have conducted a launch of at least 2 Type 93 torpedoes, scoring 0 hits. This is a hit rate of 0%. This action fits into the Decisive Battle scenario as an example, on a small scale of how an attacker can be surprised and defeated in disorder.

10) The First Naval Battle of Guadalcanal: A USN force of two CAs, three CLs and eight DDs intercepted an IJN force of two BBs, one CL, and eleven DDs, successfully preventing a bombardment of the island’s airfield, but suffering heavy losses in the effort. During the action, the IJN conducted eight launches of 48 Type 93 torpedoes, scoring six hits which crippled USN CLs Atlanta and Juneau, and USN CA Portland, and sank DDs Barton and Laffey. This is a hit rate of 12.5%. This action fits into the Decisive Battle scenario as an example of how even a powerful attacking detachment can be repulsed with losses by screening units.

11) The Second Naval Battle of Guadalcanal: A USN force of two BBs and four DDs intercepted an IJN force of one BB, two CAs, two CLs, and eleven DDs, successfully preventing a bombardment of the island’s airfield, again at significant loss in the effort. During the action, the IJN conducted a probable fourteen launches of a probable 51 Type 93 torpedoes, scoring 2 hits which crippled USN DD Benham and sank USN DD Walke. This is a probable hit rate of 3.9%. This action fits in the Decisive Battle scenario as an example of what could happen to even a powerful attack unit should it come up against an alert and ably led element of the US Battle Line.

12) The Battle of Tassafaronga: A USN force of four CAs, one CL and six DDs botched an ambush of eight IJN DDs on a Tokyo Express run. The IJN ships conducted a very successful torpedo counterattack and escaped for the sacrifice of one of their number. During the action, the IJN DDs conducted a probable eight launches of a probable 47 Type 93 torpedoes, scoring six hits which crippled USN CAs Minneapolis and New Orleans, damaged CA Pensacola and sank CA Northampton. This is a probable hit rate of 12.7%. This action fits into the Decisive Battle scenario as an example of how scattered and surprised formations can reform and execute a decisive counterattack.

13) The Battle of the Komandorski Islands: A USN force of one CA, one CL and four DDs impetuously attempted to attack IJN transports in the Aleutians despite a strong escort of two IJN CAs, two CLs and five DDs. The IJN force aborted the supply run and held off the USN force, which was lucky to escape without serious loss. During the action, the IJN conducted nine launches of 42 Type 93 torpedoes, scoring 0 hits. This is a hit rate of 0%. This action fits into the Decisive Battle scenario as an example of what might occur between scattered screening elements during the daylight phase of the action.

14) The Battle of Kula Gulf: A USN force of three CLs and four DDs ambushed a Tokyo Express run of ten IJN DDs, sinking one, damaging three and driving another aground, at the price of one CL. During the action, the IJN conducted four or five launches of a probable 36 Type 93 torpedoes, scoring 3 hits, sinking USN CL Helena. This is a hit rate of 8.3%. The action fits into the Decisive Battle scenario as an example of what could happen to a destroyer unit hitting an inner screen detachment.

15) The Battle of Kolombangara: An Allied force of two USN CLs, one RNZN CL, and ten USN DDs intercepted a Tokyo Express run of one IJN CL and five DDs, paying heavily for sinking the IJN CL. During the action, the IJN conducted a probable ten launches of a probable 80 Type 93 torpedoes, scoring 4 hits and 1 dud which damaged USN CLs Honolulu and St. Louis, crippled RNZN CL Leander, and sank USN DD Gwin. This is a probable hit rate of 6.25%. This action fits into the Decisive Battle scenario as a counterexample to the previously cited battle.

16) The Battle of Vella Gulf: A USN force of six DDs ambushed a Tokyo Express run of four IJN DDs, sinking three in a nearly perfect torpedo attack. During the action, the IJN conducted one launch of 8 Type 93 torpedoes, scoring 0 hits. This is a hit rate of 0%. This action fits into the Decisive Battle scenario as an example of an action between light elements of both the attacking and defending forces.

17) The Battle of Horaniu: In a little known and mutually embarrassing action a USN force of four DDs tangled with an IJN force of four DDs. Neither side managed to harm the other. During the action, the IJN conducted four launches of a probable 26 Type 93 torpedoes, scoring 0 hits. This is a hit rate of 0%. This action fits into the Decisive Battle scenario as another example of a small unit action.

18) The Battle of Vella Lavella: A force of six USN DDs attacked a Tokyo Express run of nine IJN DDs and came off the worse. During the action, the IJN conducted a probable six launches of a probable 48 Type 93 torpedoes, scoring 2 hits which crippled USN DDs Selfridge and Chevalier (which was later scuttled). This is a hit rate of 4.1%. This action fits into the Decisive Battle scenario as another example of a small unit action.

19) The Battle of Empress Augusta Bay: An IJN force of two CAs, two CLs and six DDs attempted to break up a landing on Bougainvillea, and was routed by a USN force of four CLs and eight DDs for small loss. During the action, the IJN conducted seven launches of 44 Type 93 torpedoes, scoring 1 hit which crippled USN DD Foote. This is a hit rate of 2.2%. This action fits into the Decisive Battle scenario as an example, on a medium scale of how an attacker can be surprised and defeated in disorder.

20) The Battle of Cape St. George: A USN force of five DDs ambushed an IJN Tokyo Express run of five DDs, sinking three. During the action one IJN DD may have conducted two launches of 9 Type 93 torpedoes, scoring 0 hits. This is a hit rate of 0%. This action fits into the Decisive Battle scenario as another example of a small unit action.

21) The Battle off Biak: IJN forces of one CA, one CL and five attempted to reinforce Biak, partly with towed barges of troops, but broke off its mission in a brief skirmish with a superior Allied cruiser-destroyer force which withdrew its 3 CLs before giving chase with three DD divisions. During the action the five IJN DDs each appear to have made a single launch of a probable 42 Type 93 torpedoes, scoring 0 hits. This is a hit rate of 0%. This action fits into the Decisive Battle scenario as an example of what might happen to an attacking unit falling back before a clearly superior defensive unit.

22) The Battle of Surigao Strait: IJN forces of two BBs, three CAs, one CL and five DDs attempted to breach an Allied force of six USN BBs, three USN CAs, one RAN CA, four USN CLs, one RAN DD, and nineteen USN DDs. They were shattered and repulsed for small damage. During the action the IJN conducted a probable three launches of 20 Type 93 torpedoes, scoring 0 hits. This is a hit rate of 0%. This action fits into the Decisive Battle scenario as an example of what could happen to a strong element of the night battle force if it did penetrate far enough to open a path to the US Battle Line.

23) The Battle off Samar: An IJN force of four BBs, six CAs, two CLs, and eleven DDs debouched San Bernardino Strait and attacked a USN escort carrier task force of six CVEs, 3 DDs and 4 DEs. They became thoroughly disorganized by the USN DD/DE counterattack and aerial harassment, being repulsed with heavy losses. During the action the IJN conducted at least one launch of 7 Type 93 torpedoes, scoring 0 hits. This is a rate of 0%. This action fits into the Decisive Battle scenario as an example of how the destroyer charge could come apart and be ineffective, and how a countercharge can disrupt the attacking battle line.

26) The Battle of Ormoc Bay: A USN force of three DDs attacked an disrupted Japanese forces including two small DDs unloading troops into Leyte. They thoroughly shot up the IJN force, sinking a small DD, but failed to get away unscathed, losing one DD to a Japanese torpedo. During the action the IJN conducted at least one launch of 4 Type 93 torpedoes, scoring 1 hit which sank USN DD Cooper. This is a probable hit rate of 25%. This action fits into the Decisive Battle scenario as an example of a small unit action.

The table below sumarizes these actions (ANTFPH = Average Number of Torpedoes Fired Per Hit).


Engagement Percentage
3) 19-20 Feb 42 The Battle of Badung Strait [ 8:1 = 12.5%]
4) 27 Feb 42 The Battle of the Java Sea [ 54.67: = 1.8%]
6) 1 Mar 42 The Battle of Sunda Strait [ 7.4:1 = 13.5%]
7) 9 Aug 42 The Battle of Savo Island [ 7.6:1 = 13.1%]
8) 21 Aug 42 The loss of USS Blue [ 4:1 = 25%]
9) 11-12 Oct 42 The Battle of Cape Esperence [ 2:0 = 0%]
10) 13 Nov 42 The First Naval Battle of Guadalcanal [ 8:1 = 12.5%]
11) 14-15 Nov 42 The Second Naval Battle of Guadalcanal [ 25.5:1 = 3.9%]
12) 29-30 Nov 42 The Battle of Tassafaronga [ 7.8:1 = 12.7%]
13) 26 Mar 43 The Battle of the Komandorski Islands [ 42:0 = 0%]
14) 6 Jul 43 The Battle of Kula Gulf [ 12:1 = 8.3%]
15) 13 Jul 43 The Battle of Kolombangara [ 16:1 = 6.25%]
16) 6-7 Aug 43 The Battle of Vella Gulf [ 8:0 = 0%]
17) 18 Aug 43 The Battle of Horaniu [ 26:0 = 0%]
18) 6 Oct 43 The Battle of Vella Lavella [ 24:1 = 4.1%]
19) 2 Nov 43 The Battle of Empress Augusta Bay [ 44:1 = 2.2%]
20) 26 Nov 43 The Battle of Cape St. George [ 9:0 = 0%]
21) 7 Jun 44 The Battle off Biak [ 42:0 = 0%]
22) 24-25 Oct 44 The Battle of Surigao Strait [ 20:0 = 0%]
23) 25 Oct 44 The Battle off Samar [ 7:0 = 0%]
26) 3 Dec 44 The Battle of Ormoc Bay [ 4:1 = 25%]

Averages

16.76:1 = 6.71%

In these battles the IJN hit 30 enemy ships with 44 Type 93, 1 Type 8 and 2 Type 6 torpedoes in these battles, sinking 18. The average hit rate was 6.71%, far below the required 15%. Of 130 torpedoes in an opening salvo for the Night Battle, only 9 would find a mark, at an average of 1.6 per ship, resulting in hits on about six ships which would probably be two CAs, two CLs and two DDs. Of these, one of each would probably sink based off historical results. The 280 torpedo salvo at the start of the daylight Decisive Battle would net only 18 hits at a rate of 6.71%.

In terms of efficiency (rounds expended per hit obtained) the Japanese needed to achieve a rate of 6.67:1. In actuality, they achieved a rate of 16.76:1. Instead of achieving a hit rate equivalent to slightly more than one per average destroyer (8-tube Kagero Class) firing a full load, the IJN achieved a rate slightly worse than one per two full loads fired from an average destroyer.

To answer the question posed by this article; the IJN did not achieve the necessary hit rate or efficiency in action to make the Decisive Battle strategy a success, had that course been pursued. Even the world’s best surface torpedomen were not good enough to bring the Decisive Battle to fruition for the IJN. All they could do was make it costly, and die fighting.

Afterword

Two significant factors have not been included in this review for lack of sufficient reliable documentation.

The first is a review of the Type 93 torpedo by range fired, and speed setting employed. The dismal performance in such long-range actions as Java Sea and Komandorski Islands, and the relative success in the close-range actions of the Solomons Campaign, imply that the weapon’s speed was a greater asset than its range. It may be that the Japanese misappreciated their own weapon and would have been better served by a plan which eschewed “long-range concealed firing” in favor of short-range attacks that offered the enemy less time to evade.

The second is a review of Type 93 dud and depth control problems. Numerous Type 93s failed to explode, many others ran under their targets and others prematured in the wake pattern of the target ship. Without detailed information on impact angles, Type 93 fuze characteristics, and the number of weapons which passed harmlessly beneath their targets, reliable observations regarding these factors (so famously poor in US submarine and aerial torpedoes) are impossible. What little information I have on these phenomena suggests the Type 93 was not immune to these banes of the torpedo designer and employer.

Background Note

Only a handful of battles are documented well enough to yield exact totals. Thus, I was forced to make approximations based upon what I could observe of Japanese torpedo doctrine. For example, up until about half-way through the Solomons Campaign, Japanese doctrine was to fire half of their ready torpedoes in one salvo, empty the tubes with the next and then withdraw to reload. About mid-1943, they appear to have abandoned this doctrine in favor of flushing the tubes on the first salvo, then withdrawing to reload. I based this on some careful inference from Evans and Peattie about Japanese pre-war doctrine, and those firings that actually were well documented. Up through Komandorski islands, half-salvoes are used. From Kula Gulf on, full salvoes.

And, of course, there were exceptions both before and after July '43. I did my best to reconstruct the firing doctrine in effect at the time and applied that to the launches for which I lacked authoritative documentation.



Bibliography

Kaigun by Evans and Peattie
Japanese Cruisers of World War Two by LaCroix and Wells
Disaster in the Pacifici by Warner and Warner
The Battle of Cape Esperence by Cook
The Naval Battle of Guadalcanal by Grace
The Battle of the Komandorski Islands by Lorelli
The Two-Ocean War by Morison
A Battle History of the Imperial Japanese Navy by Dull
Cruisers of World War Two, An International Encyclopedia by Whitley
Cruisers of the US Navy 1922-1962 by Terzibaschitsch
War Plan Orange by Miller
US Warships of World War 2 by Silverstone
Japanese Warships of World War II by Watts
A History of War at Sea by Pemsel
Atlas of American Wars by Natkiel
Atlas of World War II by Natkiel




HansBolter -> RE: Type 93 Torpedo (3/11/2008 8:35:30 PM)

Big B.

Thank you very much.

Nothing like real facts to dispell misconceptions.

I guess this will have sufficiently burst Ike's bubble to casue him to refrain from further comment....at least in this thread.




tocaff -> RE: Type 93 Torpedo (3/11/2008 10:25:36 PM)

In all fairness to Ike he has been elsewhere for a while since so many took him to task.  The peacefull, noncombative air in the UV forum has been nothing short of refreshing.  




jwilkerson -> RE: Type 93 Torpedo (3/18/2008 7:46:06 AM)

One problem with the study BigB cites, is that it is still not exhaustive. We were even treated with an explaination about what was not included. But I guess fundamentally my question was different. My question was not about surface actions. My question was about damage caused by T93 torpedoes to vessels of all nations. (What damage was caused by T93 torpedoes in any and all circumstances to any and all vessels of any and all nations). That question overlaps the cited study, but it is not the primary question answered by that study.





jwilkerson -> RE: Type 93 Torpedo (3/18/2008 7:48:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Big B.

Thank you very much.

Nothing like real facts to dispell misconceptions.

I guess this will have sufficiently burst Ike's bubble to casue him to refrain from further comment....at least in this thread.


This thread is/was not about Ike (or even Ike99) but about IJN T93 Torpedo!
:)





HansBolter -> RE: Type 93 Torpedo (3/18/2008 2:50:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Big B.

Thank you very much.

Nothing like real facts to dispell misconceptions.

I guess this will have sufficiently burst Ike's bubble to casue him to refrain from further comment....at least in this thread.


This thread is/was not about Ike (or even Ike99) but about IJN T93 Torpedo!
:)




Perhaps not, but it has already had the referenced effect, so the issue is moot.




Nikademus -> RE: Type 93 Torpedo (3/18/2008 4:31:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

One problem with the study BigB cites, is that it is still not exhaustive. We were even treated with an explaination about what was not included. But I guess fundamentally my question was different. My question was not about surface actions. My question was about damage caused by T93 torpedoes to vessels of all nations. (What damage was caused by T93 torpedoes in any and all circumstances to any and all vessels of any and all nations). That question overlaps the cited study, but it is not the primary question answered by that study.




The study cited was born out of multiple thread discussions about the potential impact of the Type93 back in the 90's on the warships1.com BBvsBB forum. The problem i had with it at the time it was being put together (by a fellow longtime poster/member of that forum) remains the same then as now.....that it was for all the sources cited a simple exercise in counting the hits and coming up with a % and then concluding that something theoretical could never or would probably never have happened....despite the fact that, as mentioned, the study was not exhaustive nor did it take into account the myriad difference in condtions for each battle.

Despite it's limitations...both admitted and postulated...the real irony in the days since has been how this study-post (preserved as an "article" for the warships1 board) has been taken out of context over the years and/or taken as gospel. It was always about postualating on whether or not Japan's pre-war decisive battle plan, specifically the part where the torpedo-men came into play, had any real chance of success.....but has since then been used to justify a wide variety of opinions mainly centering around smaller night operations....not the "Decisive Battle"




mdiehl -> RE: Type 93 Torpedo (3/21/2008 8:17:20 PM)

The irony to me is how any quantitative information regarding the success rate of Japanese equipment is disregarded as "taken out of context" or otherwise accompanied by non-sequitur disparaging remarks (to wit "regarded as gospel") when it contradicts the Gospel of the Invincible Type 93a.

The plain fact is that Czarnecki's analysis was QUITE comprehensive, included all of the major engagements in which the torp was used, and did NOT suggest (as was imlpied before) that therefore " then concluding that something theoretical could never or would probably never have happened...." That was, in fact, not the conclusion. What it said was that the Type 93a does not seem to have been a winning component of the decisive battle doctrine given the examples of its actual success in combat.

To disagree with Czarnecki's conclusion, one would either have to reject the use of historical data for testing the quality of the decisive battle doctrine, or else one would have to conclude that the only data that should be included should be data that reflect well on said doctrine. Sure, if every battle were always just like the Japanese wished they could be, or every outcome predictably always just like Tassafaronga or Savo, then one can make the Type 93a into the uberweapon that mythology characterizes it to have been.

But the cold hard reality of facts and circumstances of use show that it wasn't. Once you become adequately informed about the stats (the mean, mode, and median hit rates at day and at night) you start to think about why in some circumstances torpedoes fired by surface ships worked very well, and why in most engagements they were completely ineffective.




jwilkerson -> RE: Type 93 Torpedo (3/22/2008 12:30:54 AM)

"Comprehensive" needs a context to be relevant. My context, as thread starter in this thread was "How much damage was caused by T93 to warships of any nation, by any means?" The context of the cited study is damage caused to enemy ships in surface battles. The study might be comprehensive within the question it was trying to answer, but not in terms of the question that formed the theme of the thread!





Wirraway_Ace -> RE: Type 93 Torpedo (3/22/2008 1:58:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

The plain fact is that Czarnecki's analysis was QUITE comprehensive,...



But does not attempt to include the damage/risk that the Type 93a represented to the ship carrying it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Once you become adequately informed about the stats (the mean, mode, and median hit rates at day and at night) you start to think about why in some circumstances torpedoes fired by surface ships worked very well, and why in most engagements they were completely ineffective.


I am surprised that one might find the mode and median as valuable tools for describing the success of Type 93a attacks. A posteriori, I find mean based measures more effective for data distributed in this way....[;)]




Wirraway_Ace -> RE: Type 93 Torpedo (3/22/2008 2:07:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

"Comprehensive" needs a context to be relevant. My context, as thread starter in this thread was "How much damage was caused by T93 to warships of any nation, by any means?" The context of the cited study is damage caused to enemy ships in surface battles. The study might be comprehensive within the question it was trying to answer, but not in terms of the question that formed the theme of the thread!



So we can be helpful by citing examples of when a Type 93a caused damage, other than by striking enemy warships, to help you derive differential rates for damage caused to a ship struck while carrying Type 93a torps vs those with other torps?




Nikademus -> RE: Type 93 Torpedo (3/22/2008 2:22:14 AM)

quote:



The irony to me is how any quantitative information regarding the success rate of Japanese equipment is disregarded as "taken out of context" or otherwise accompanied by non-sequitur disparaging remarks (to wit "regarded as gospel") when it contradicts the Gospel of the Invincible Type 93a.


The irony is that the article was neither disregarded in it's entirty, nor was it claimed that the Type93A was invincble.

quote:


The plain fact is that Czarnecki's analysis was QUITE comprehensive."


Incorrect. As mentioned, "comprehensive" requires a clear context to be relevent. The author admitted in the article, and during forum conversations during it's construction that it was not an exhaustive, complete study.

quote:


To disagree with Czarnecki's conclusion, one would either have to reject the use of historical data for testing the quality of the decisive battle doctrine, or else one would have to conclude that the only data that should be included should be data that reflect well on said doctrine.


Straw Man. The disagreeing with a conclusion, in part or in whole does not mean rejection of historical data since historical data requires interpretation and to be taken in proper context. That is why historians can (and often do) argue over the same set of data points. In this case it doesn't address at all JoeW's question as he has patiently pointed out. [:)]

quote:


But the cold hard reality of facts and circumstances of use show that it wasn't.


I don't recall these selective facts to include an actual playing out of the Japanese plan in wartime. That would be hard to do since it never happened as postulated. From a study of "Kaigun" it most likely would not have occured as planned and not by a long shot. The Japanese were entirely too optimistic in their appraisals and Joe's analysis lends support the conclusion already fielded by Evans and Peattie. To say it could not happen at all however under the circumstances postulated cannot be stated with authority.




mdiehl -> RE: Type 93 Torpedo (3/22/2008 2:47:34 AM)

@jwilkerson - OK. Yes, vis the question that you asked, Czarnecki's analysis does not address exactly the question. I'm not sure how or whether one could come up with some reliable estimate of the likelihood of a Type 93a to cause damage to the ship carrying it or to a friendly.

@Wirraway Ace

quote:

am surprised that one might find the mode and median as valuable tools for describing the success of Type 93a attacks. A posteriori, I find mean based measures more effective for data distributed in this way....


Mean is a pretty good measure when the distribution is unimodal and otherwise reasonably well-behaved (not too skewed, not too much kurtosis). The IJN Type 93a % hit rate is neither. Thus, the mean hit rate overall is 6.7% regardless of context, but the standard deviation is quite high.

WTF why not here you go. Number of cases 21 (I've been adding to Czarnecki's tables), mean hit rate 6.7%, 95% confidence interval 3.07-10.35%, minimum 0%, maximum 25%, lower quartile 0% upper quartile 12.5%, std deviation 8.00.

Context matters. In daylight the mean hit rate is 0.6%. At night it's 7.7%. About 15% of Japanese torps that hit ships struck ships that were already dead in the water or substantially slowed because of prior battle damage, but this does not include for ex the scuttling by torpedo of abandoned enemy vessels.

The mean number of Allied ships hit per engagement is 1.3 ships. Minimum 0, maximum 5 but these are based on my own incomplete data.

&c &c




mdiehl -> RE: Type 93 Torpedo (3/22/2008 2:58:21 AM)

quote:

Incorrect. As mentioned, "comprehensive" requires a clear context to be relevent. The author admitted in the article, and during forum conversations during it's construction that it was not an exhaustive, complete study.


Nevertheless, the contexts are well known to both that author and to me making use of his tallies. His study actually IS quite comprehensive when you look at the actual number of surface-surface engagements fought. Indeed, his data are somewhat skewed in favor of the IJN, because they exclude some battles in which many Type 93as were launched but did not hit, on account of the set-ups not being setups imagined in the IJN DBD.

quote:

Straw Man. The disagreeing with a conclusion, in part or in whole does not mean rejection of historical data since historical data requires interpretation and to be taken in proper context.


It's not a straw man argument given that you have stated flat out that you reject the analysis because it does not envision a set up that presumes that the Torps work into the DBD in the way that the IJN wanted them to. In essence you have claimed nothing more than that 'Czarnecki's analysis is irrelevent because under the right set of circumstances the Type 93a could have worked out the way the IJN wanted in the DBD.' Well, no, actually, the point is that the data don't support that claim. The IJN DBD envisioned a series of engagements preceding to and leading up to a big battle. If we treat these data as indicative of the kinds of successes the IJN would have in a series of engagements (them being actual data from a series of engagements and all that), then the Type 93a isn't the war winner the Japanese hoped it would be. It's not even as good as UV and WitP make it out to be.

quote:

I don't recall these selective facts to include an actual playing out of the Japanese plan in wartime.


Yes I understand. The absence of data conclusively favorable to the Japanese implies the inapplicability of actual data from the actual war. Your rebuttal is bravo sierra.

quote:

To say it could not happen at all however under the circumstances postulated cannot be stated with authority.


I don't recall Czarnecki or anyone else saying that. As I and Czarnecki noted context matters. The only way you can plausibly cook up a scenario in which the Type 93a accomplishes its role in the DBD is to assume that most instances of real world Japanese torp use would resemble those instances in which the IJN realized their BEST performance, such as at Savo Island or at Tassafaronga. The data clearly indicate that those actions were statistically atypical. Therefore, it logically follows that the Tuype 93a living up to its role in the DBD is at best, statistically speaking, highly improbable. When you look at the contexts that would be required to override the stats (which involve commodore situational awareness, radar, orders of battle, and similar factors), the probability of the Type 93a fulfilling its desired role in the DBD approaches nil.




Nikademus -> RE: Type 93 Torpedo (3/22/2008 3:07:07 AM)

quote:


Nevertheless, the contexts are well known to both that author and to me making use of his tallies. His study actually IS quite comprehensive when you look at the actual number of surface-surface engagements fought. Indeed, his data are somewhat skewed in favor of the IJN, because they exclude some battles in which many Type 93as were launched but did not hit, on account of the set-ups not being setups imagined in the IJN DBD.


The contexts are not well known. He admitted that in his own study. It and your comments also have no context to what JoeW is asking.

quote:


It's not a straw man argument given that you have stated flat out that you reject the analysis because it does not envision a set up that presumes that the Torps work into the DBD in the way that the IJN wanted them to.


Show me where I stated that I flat out rejected the analaysis.

quote:


In essence you have claimed nothing more than that 'Czarnecki's analysis is irrelevent because under the right set of circumstances the Type 93a could have worked out the way the IJN wanted in the DBD.'


Incorrect. I pointed out that I had some issues with how he ultimately interpreted his data. We had a number of good discussions about it actually. You are also deliberately igorning that I have stated.....twice that ultimately Joe's article can be seen as supporting the conclusion of Evans/Peattie who stated in their book that it was highly improbable that the Japanese plan would work. I have no disagreement with that.

quote:


It's not even as good as UV and WitP make it out to be.


A point of context Joe did not attempt to make. Nor can you since you've never played the games in question.


quote:

quote:

Yes I understand. The absence of data conclusively favorable to the Japanese implies the inapplicability of actual data from the actual war. Your rebuttal is bravo sierra.


No, the absence of complete data and analysis accompanied by the absence of an actual battle under which the conditions the DB were to be fought means that one can conclude, based on Evans/Peattie that such a result is improbable, but not impossible.


quote:


I don't recall Czarnecki or anyone else saying that. As I and Czarnecki noted context matters. The only way you can plausibly cook up a scenario in which the Type 93a accomplishes its role in the DBD is to assume that most instances of real world Japanese torp use would resemble those instances in which the IJN realized their BEST performance, such as at Savo Island or at Tassafaronga.


Except that those battles do not resemble the DB and as Joe admitted, he was unable to completely evaluate the manner in which each battle was fought, including the the number of weapons fired by which ship, range and speed settings, spread type and target. Ultimately he counted launches and hits. Ultimately, as mentioned it can be seen as a supportive argument to Evans/Peattie's comments regarding the DB.




Miller -> RE: Type 93 Torpedo (3/22/2008 3:15:52 PM)

I have come late to this one, but I can say as a Jap player with many games under my belt that the LL is way to accurate in UV. It is less so in WITP, but still hits more often than in real life......




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