RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Features List (Full Version)

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Erik Rutins -> RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Features List (3/16/2008 9:54:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rick
OK - How about setting it with 5% on T1 but increasing the probably to 50% T8.
Can the same unit have increasing probability of arriving?


Nope, but you can approximate that curve by playing with the existing variables.

quote:

Also, since I"m asking questions, I have both desktop and laptop (for on the road times). As far as system requirements, if my laptop can play the demo for PC:OWS, will it be able to play PCK? I know I saw the system requirements seemed to be the same, but does PCK use more system resources?


Yes, if it can play Winterstorm, it will be able to play Kharkov - the minimum requirements have not changed and Kharkov actually is in some ways more compatible with some low-end systems than Winterstorm was. Kharkov does not demand much more from the video card, but it does more between-phase calculations so the worst case should be that the end of phase calculation takes a bit longer than on Winterstorm. Performance-wise in both Winterstorm and Kharkov, a better video card will generally improve your during-replay FPS and the look of the graphics quite a bit, while a better processor (especially a dual or multi-core) will speed up the calculations a lot.

Regards,

- Erik



Mraah -> RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Features List (3/19/2008 4:14:09 PM)

Erik,

I read the new features but I didn't see a new command for mount/unmounting when moving. Currently in PCOWS it appears you can only mount/unmount within 15 meters. This make it difficult to RUSH a building and, well, mount the building, as it were [;)].

Currently in PCOWS , if you RUSH a building you can't go in it until the next phase.

Also, it appears that when infantry mounted in a building take fire/casualties, sometimes they unmount the building and end up outside. I observed infantry in the bell tower go to the first floor and outside after receiving MG fire from my halftrack.

Forgive me if I missed something somewhere stating this was fixed etc.

Thanks,
Rob



Erik Rutins -> RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Features List (3/19/2008 5:19:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mraah
I read the new features but I didn't see a new command for mount/unmounting when moving. Currently in PCOWS it appears you can only mount/unmount within 15 meters. This make it difficult to RUSH a building and, well, mount the building, as it were [;)].


In Winterstorm and Kharkov, you can move to a spot and then mount or unmount at the start of either phase, not during the phase. So you get a chance to mount or unmount every 40 seconds. Since these are instantaneous commands and apply at up to 15 meters distance, we don't think that's unrealistic.

quote:

Also, it appears that when infantry mounted in a building take fire/casualties, sometimes they unmount the building and end up outside. I observed infantry in the bell tower go to the first floor and outside after receiving MG fire from my halftrack.


Did they fail morale and rout? It's possible there was a bug in Winterstorm, but I wouldn't call it that until I knew more about the situation.

I haven't seen infantry unmounting in Kharkov unless they are completely broken and routing.

Regards,

- Erik



jamespcrowley -> RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Features List (3/19/2008 6:59:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mraah
quote:

Also, it appears that when infantry mounted in a building take fire/casualties, sometimes they unmount the building and end up outside. I observed infantry in the bell tower go to the first floor and outside after receiving MG fire from my halftrack.


Did they fail morale and rout? It's possible there was a bug in Winterstorm, but I wouldn't call it that until I knew more about the situation.

I haven't seen infantry unmounting in Kharkov unless they are completely broken and routing.

Regards,

- Erik



The "dance of death" was one of the biggest annoyances in the CMx1 series.

Under heavy fire, often squads would exit trenches, foxholes, buildings and other could cover and run around like headless chickens in the open until they were eliminated.

While I accept that an individual might be driven to do this sometimes, infantry as a whole were able to absorb a terrific amount of punishment when in good cover. This might make them temporarily combat ineffective but not stupid enough to vacate that good cover by going out into the open.

The trigger for this behaviour in CM was the unit going from pinned (supressed in PC?) to panicked/broken/routed

In CM, I wondered if the gap between being suppressed and being routed/broken was too narrow. Hopefully this is not the case with PCK.

Having said that I have just DL'd the demo of PCoWS and, playing the tutorial, noticed something very similar; a Russian Rifle squad in a building routed and ran outside after only a couple of bursts of MG fire from a HT (no casulaties as far as I can remember but may have been Green. Perhaps that had something to do with it).

IMO, units should only leave good cover involuntarily very,very rarely.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Features List (3/19/2008 7:22:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: James Crowley
IMO, units should only leave good cover involuntarily very,very rarely.


That's basically what they're told to do in Kharkov. FYI, a pinned and routed unit won't move. A routed and unsuppressed unit may try to bolt.

There is a possibility that a routed unit will leave cover in Kharkov, but it's not common.

Regards,

- Erik



ravinhood -> RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Features List (3/19/2008 7:44:41 PM)

Just as long as they don't banzai attack and leave their great defensive positions just because I took an objective flag I'll be a happy camper. We discussed this before, but, it's imperative that the AI KNOWS when it's WINNING and doesn't do STUPID stuff at that point. ;) Obviously I expect it when it's losing I even do it. All or nothing sort of play near the end. But, doing the WAVE ASSAULT after I take one objective position and going from winning to losing was really annoying in CM.



ravinhood -> RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Features List (3/19/2008 7:51:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: James Crowley

Is that all?

No, seriously. WOW [:D]


LMAO James I just read this and belly laughed out loud. IS THAT ALL!! hahaha Well of course it's never enough just look at the before the game is released wishlist lol.



jamespcrowley -> RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Features List (3/19/2008 7:57:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

LMAO James I just read this and belly laughed out loud. IS THAT ALL!! hahaha Well of course it's never enough just look at the before the game is released wishlist lol.


Yes, we always want more and more, don't we.

Having said that, I have great expectations for the CM series; I don't think I have been so excited by a software release since CMBO, way back when!



Mraah -> RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Features List (3/20/2008 9:15:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
In Winterstorm and Kharkov, you can move to a spot and then mount or unmount at the start of either phase, not during the phase. So you get a chance to mount or unmount every 40 seconds. Since these are instantaneous commands and apply at up to 15 meters distance, we don't think that's unrealistic.


I agree that for an instantaneous move, yes, within a certain distance they could mount/unmount. Unfortunately, I came across a "cheat" that will allow your infantry unit to "building hop" in the REACTION phase that would allow the unit to move (instantaneous) from one building to another without have to cross the 40 meters of open terrain between the two buildings.

An example, in the ORDERS phase you have a unit between two buildings, left and right of the unit, that are within mounting range. You mount the building on the right. In the REACTIONS phase you can unmount the building (which places it into the previous location in between the buildings) and then you can mount the building on the left. So they basically teleported between the two buildings [:-].

I would have thought having a submenu for RUSH/ADVANCE/DEFEND - MOUNT could remove this teleportation and force the unit to traverse the 40 meters between the two buildings.

Thanks for your replies!! At any rate, it's not detering me from getting Karkov. Just some observations. [:)]

EDIT NOTE : Above observations are in PCOWS.
2nd EDIT NOTE : The cheat would work great for SEWER movement for the urban fighting battles!! So, if you agree then don't throw throw away the code.

Rob





Erik Rutins -> RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Features List (3/20/2008 9:22:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mraah
I agree that for an instantaneous move, yes, within a certain distance they could mount/unmount. Unfortunately, I came across a "cheat" that will allow your infantry unit to "building hop" in the REACTION phase that would allow the unit to move (instantaneous) from one building to another without have to cross the 40 meters of open terrain between the two buildings.
An example, in the ORDERS phase you have a unit between two buildings, left and right of the unit, that are within mounting range. You mount the building on the right. In the REACTIONS phase you can unmount the building (which places it into the previous location in between the buildings) and then you can mount the building on the left. So they basically teleported between the two buildings [:-].


That's not really a major problem - the unit is still limited to those two buildings. When you unmount, you are placed in the exact location you were in before you mounted, so the most you could do is cross 30 meters of space between buildings if you'd placed your squad perfectly between them and then mounted one. You can never bounce over to a building that wasn't within 15 meters of your original mount point.

Note that when we actually get to true city-fighting, as in Stalingrad, we will need to revisit this, but I think it works well for now.



Mraah -> RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Features List (3/20/2008 9:26:17 PM)



Erik,

Ok. Check out my 2nd edit note in the original post while you were replying. Makes a good SEWER move [;)]

Rob



jamespcrowley -> RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Features List (4/3/2008 11:30:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Unit List: Note that this list only includes units for which there are in-game models, focused primarily on the 1941-1944 Eastern Front order of battle. Specs are provided for many more units than listed here, which will have models added in the future (and could have models added by modders post-release)



Presumably the random generators do not select the un-modelled units?

When new models are added, do they have to be activated in some way to enable them to be selected by the generators?



Stridor -> RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Features List (4/3/2008 11:52:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: James Crowley

Presumably the random generators do not select the un-modelled units?

When new models are added, do they have to be activated in some way to enable them to be selected by the generators?


The generators do not select un-modelled units.

Nothing special needs to be done to enable them in the generators, they will be automatically included in a random battle depending on their service entry, median and end service date settings. That is if you set the RBG to include all units, it is possible to load a particular battle plan which may limit equipment based around historical settings.



jamespcrowley -> RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Features List (4/3/2008 12:11:58 PM)

Thanks Stridor.

Are you able to say how many additional, un-modelled, units there are n PCK?



Erik Rutins -> RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Features List (4/3/2008 2:38:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: James Crowley
Are you able to say how many additional, un-modelled, units there are n PCK?


We've included stat files for quite a few that don't have 3D models yet, though there are far fewer in that state than there were with Winterstorm. so I'd say probably a couple dozen at most?



jamespcrowley -> RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Features List (4/3/2008 3:33:20 PM)

Well....with the unexpected delay caused by the random campaign generator and with a certain someone, who has manifested a modicum of talent in producing passable 3D models idling his time away, well....perhaps some of those vacant slots might just start to fill up. [:D]



madorosh -> RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Features List (4/4/2008 3:42:18 AM)

Seems to me that CM:BB shipped with some vehicles "sharing" 3D models in the absence of the correct ones; of course, they had an insanely large vehicle list and the shared ones were relatively obscure. Unless I'm thinking of CM:AK...?



Mobius -> RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Features List (4/4/2008 4:19:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael Dorosh
Seems to me that CM:BB shipped with some vehicles "sharing" 3D models in the absence of the correct ones; of course, they had an insanely large vehicle list and the shared ones were relatively obscure. Unless I'm thinking of CM:AK...?
Besides the ordinary vehicle list each type often had some variant that is easier to do once the basic work of the original is done. Example the 3 types of Brummbars, 4 types of BA-3,6,10,10M armoured cars. I didn't know it beforw I aquired a new book, but there are two models of KV-2, which probably will be my next model(s) (post release) after we are done testing the campaign generator.



helm123456789 -> RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Features List (4/4/2008 4:44:28 PM)

Man with the addition of Brummbars its looking like I might be able to try my hand at doing SL scenarios 1-3.

I'm getting more excited by the day.

Might have to leave work early the day it comes out.  Erik, Mobius if I give you my desk phone number at work....do you think you could give me call the minute the download become available[:)]



Mobius -> RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Features List (4/4/2008 5:40:21 PM)

I think Erik wants this released more than anyone. He's been working 25hrs a day on it for the last couple of months. I just playtest and build models at my own pace. [:'(]



Grell -> RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Features List (4/4/2008 5:56:34 PM)

Hi Mobius,[:)]

So Erik does all the work eh? LOL!

Regards,

Grell



Erik Rutins -> RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Features List (4/4/2008 7:18:36 PM)

Far from it, but we've all been in overdrive for a while now.



Grell -> RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Features List (4/4/2008 7:28:05 PM)

Hi Erik!

I understand, was just funnin'. [:)]

Regards,

Grell



Mraah -> RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Features List (4/7/2008 3:18:25 PM)

Erik,

Questions [;)] Sorry in advance if already stated, I looked but wasn't sure.

Obstructions - Remind me ... Where obstructions (roadblocks, wire, etc) included in this release? Also, whether they are or not, can they be purchased and placed on the board by the player during setup?

• New Spring and Summer Maps - Remind me again ... does movement rate get effected or change at all? Considering PCOWS was all winter I would think summer open terrain might increase this or go back to winter terrain and apply a change. And, if you decide on having a post release or spring maps, I would think the open terrain would change to mud or have pockets of mud etc. Maybe even have secondary roads muddy for those rainy days [:)].

Thanks,
Rob



Erik Rutins -> RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Features List (4/7/2008 3:47:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mraah
Obstructions - Remind me ... Where obstructions (roadblocks, wire, etc) included in this release? Also, whether they are or not, can they be purchased and placed on the board by the player during setup?


There is barbed wire and tank obstacles, also sandbags. These are not purchasable items though, they are placed on the map during map creation. It's a limitation of the current map process. I'd like to make them separate once we do the map editor.

You can position and place these as you like in the scene editor, then update the terrain map to reflect their location. That's actually a pretty easy edit in the scheme of things so modifying an existing map into a new one with more obstacles would not take long once you learn the scene editor (which unfortunately is not an easy tool being an internal "bonus release" tool included since we don't have a full map editor rather than one polished for release).

quote:

• New Spring and Summer Maps - Remind me again ... does movement rate get effected or change at all? Considering PCOWS was all winter I would think summer open terrain might increase this or go back to winter terrain and apply a change. And, if you decide on having a post release or spring maps, I would think the open terrain would change to mud or have pockets of mud etc. Maybe even have secondary roads muddy for those rainy days [:)].


There are maps with mud and maps without. Dry ground, mud, snow all have different effects on different movement types. Each terrain type has a movement effect for the different types of movement.

Regards,

- Erik



Mraah -> RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Features List (4/7/2008 4:07:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
There is barbed wire and tank obstacles, also sandbags. These are not purchasable items though, they are placed on the map during map creation. It's a limitation of the current map process. I'd like to make them separate once we do the map editor.


You know, I can think of a really cool way to add tank obstacles myself as a purchaceable unit ...

You could simply replace the skin of a purchasable unit with dead skin and build another unit with no gun or engine. I know it would look funny with a commander sticking out but hey ... for a quick roadblock, why not [;)]. Eh, maybe button up the vehicle too.

Also, the A/I will most likely shoot at it ... soooo, if he does it would be an easy kill, maybe even open the blockage. I'm not too sure but since loaded games remove dead vehicles it might not work ... I dunno.

What do you think? Maybe even use the tank obstacle model for this too. Create a platoon of 5 in the OOB, cost debatable.

EDIT NOTE -- can a house model be swapped out? LOL, a mobile home blockage.
EDIT NOTE 2 ... I'm on a roll ... swap a vehicle with a wall or fence model with low armor rating and low target priority... the infantry can assault it and open a breach in the wire!!!
EDIT NOTE 3 ... Associate the model with a new dead wall skin or broken fence so when it blows it can have some eye candy. Nothing like purchaceable terrain that doesn't move or fire ... a handy gun pit to block line of sight .... I can go on with more edit notes .. don'tcha know [X(].

Rob



Mraah -> RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Features List (4/7/2008 4:26:38 PM)

oops, bad click ... nothing more to add [:)].



Mraah -> RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Features List (4/7/2008 4:50:03 PM)


Actually, I do having something to add ... my reasoning ...

If the collision algorithm uses the dimensions of a model to "avoid" it, ie vehicle units don't mash together and avoid each other, a big model in place of a vehicle model creates a big block.

Ehh, just a thought. Maybe I should change my login from Mraah to Mrideaman[:)].

Rob



Mraah -> RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Features List (4/7/2008 5:09:13 PM)


My 2nd reasoning .... Since the crazy designed roadblock is part of a unit force the enemy has to SEE it to be aware of it.

Imagine having to come over the peak of a hill only to find your path is blocked. Or, breaking out of a forest to a river and finding the only bridge to cross has been blocked!! Well, not forever, but if infantry were advancing it sure would have been nice know the block was there beforehand! Not.

Hey, when the 4th Armored division made their advance to Bastogne they didn't know which bridges the US engineers blew until they came upon them. By then, was too late and had to wait for the temp bridges or find another way around. Humph![sm=dizzy.gif]

Rob



Mraah -> RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Features List (4/7/2008 5:24:08 PM)

You know, a purchaseable pillbox for the Russian's would be nice ... swap out the X file and graphics of the ZIS turret with a T-34 turret.

I've understood they actually used turret's by themselves for this very purpose.

Rob



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