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ectizen -> (4/11/2001 3:09:00 AM)

Excellent! That worked great, Roland. My left mouse button thanks you!



panda124c -> (4/11/2001 7:08:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by TheZel: Is there any way to change the orintation of the start lines form 'top to bottom' to 'left to right'. I'd like to have an entry point and setup on the top and bottom of the map? Yes, move both start lines on the top half of the map to right edge, and the bottom half the left edge.
Sorry this is like telling me the way to learn to drive is to get in the car and drive. How do you move the start lines???? I've tried clicking and dragging, I tried setting the entry points to the top and bottom they get saved on the left and right. I can't find a button that effects the start lines in any way. :confused:



Don -> (4/11/2001 7:20:00 AM)

pbear, In deploy, click on the bottom button on the left with the two little green flags. This takes you to where you can change the start lines. Choose which one to alter, and start clicking! :eek:



Wild Bill -> (4/11/2001 12:48:00 PM)

My, oh my. What questions. Good ones, all. Let's see if I can help. Left clicking fills one hex Right clicking fills one hex and all adjacent hexes. Using the fill feature (explained well by Roland - I usually set it for 15 or 20) will cover a lot of ground quick. Example, if I want the entire map at level 10 (10 meters) I might set it to 50 and then with a couple of clicks it is done. Next.... Harry, this is a forum. Feel free to chip in with ideas from Fred's fine program! Then... Okay Zel, you've heard about the start lines. Let me in on this, though. The game by default is set to play right to left or left to write. With the start lines you can overcome this to a point. Oh, you can also trade sides by going to the map editor and clicking on the bottom left hand button. But then if you have been doing your homework, you already know this ;). If you do set up a top to bottom, bottom to top battle, be sure and put exit flags where they should be. Which brings up another matter. Exit flags and reinforcement flags are set in the map editor. The reinforcement hexes are assigned in the deploy screen. Keep that one in mind. We'll talk more about it later. Let's see... Higher terrain can be done, but not within the game. It is tricky and done with Chlanda's map editor. I don't know how to do it. Redleg and others are better at that than I. And... Banjo is definitely on the right track, modeling maps after real terrain. Good idea, my friend. That is how you learn to give it that "natural" look! Plus... For PBear, I think there is a terrain effects list in the manual. I'll look. I have one somewhere. The one I have is an Excel spreadsheet so I can't post it here. Water, leg units can move on coral and shallow water. They will drown in anything deeper. Vehicles can transit shallow water hexes (with breakdown roll), water (+2) and deep water(+3) are only transited by amphibious vehicles and naval craft....and amphibious tanks, I believe. I've seen tracked vehicles cross gullies, not wheeled vehicles, but at a large cost and with possible breakdown. They all avoid a ditch or gully if possible. Stream to water is just that, +2 water, cannot be crossed by vehicles or leg units. Did I get it all? I hope so. If I missed yours, remind me. And thanks to the others who have done map design and have offered suggestions. Good deal! Soon as I can figure out how to post a few simple graphics (you know, "a picture..."), maybe I'll got into even more detail. Remember, get familiar with the map editor this week. That is your assignment. Read what is in the manual and make some maps. You'll learn by doing. That is all...for now :D Wild Bill



panda124c -> (4/11/2001 6:28:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Don: pbear, In deploy, click on the bottom button on the left with the two little green flags. This takes you to where you can change the start lines. Choose which one to alter, and start clicking! :eek:
I found it, my assumption was that the start lines were a function of map making since the exit and renforcement flags are placed in the map making process. Now when I pick the start line flags and place them left to right on the map every time the flag is in the same row as another flag the first one dissapears. So if I put one flag on the left edge and another on the right edge is the start line between these two flags? Thanks everyone



Wild Bill -> (4/11/2001 7:33:00 PM)

Just draw an imaginary line from one flag to another and that is your start line, anything behind that imaginary line. That is the easiest way to describe it, PBear. Wild Bill



ectizen -> (4/11/2001 8:08:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Wild Bill: My, oh my. What questions.
My, oh my. What answers! Not only do they satisfy the original questions, they raise even more!
quote:

Example, if I want the entire map at level 10 (10 meters)
Here you mention that the heights are "metres". Elsewhere, I have seem them interpreted as "feet". The manual doesn't seem to say what the units are. Are the advocates of "feet" mistaken? (Now that is a question I never thought I'd ask...)
quote:

Higher terrain can be done, but not within the game. It is tricky and done with Chlanda's map editor. I don't know how to do it. Redleg and others are better at that than I.
Ahh... If it involves what I fear it might, it certainly would be tricky. Fortunately, my experience building Map Thing has given me some insights, and I think I may have found an easier (for me at least :)) way. If all works out, look out for ectizen's SP:WAW Mountainiser real soon now! *sigh* final edit to add: The Mountainiser worked exactly as I had envisioned it. Sadly, my vision was flawed. There will be no Mountainiser in the foreseeable future. :(
quote:

For PBear, I think there is a terrain effects list in the manual.
In the main directory of 4.5, there's a file called terrain.txt that lists movement costs for the various unit types.
quote:

Water, leg units can move on coral and shallow water. They will drown in anything deeper.
This doesn't seem to be the case all the time. In your scenario "Blood-Soaked Trail" (scen082 by default), there is a ford. The starting positions for several Japanese units appears to be Height -3, Shallow Water. The hex contains a "trail" icon, but the information for the hex doesn't mention a trail (the endpoints of the ford containing land do mention a trail). These units aren't drowning. Why? How? edit to add: Feel free to ignore the above question - it seems I have forgotten how to read... the answer is "because it's -3 shallow water", isn't it... extra edit to add: However that raises a question: Is the depth of the water in any way related to its height? Is a -3 Coral Reef possible? How about -1 Deep Water? I'll have my fine-toothed comb at the ready, awaiting your response :)



Don -> (4/12/2001 3:57:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by pbear: I found it, my assumption was that the start lines were a function of map making since the exit and renforcement flags are placed in the map making process. Now when I pick the start line flags and place them left to right on the map every time the flag is in the same row as another flag the first one dissapears. So if I put one flag on the left edge and another on the right edge is the start line between these two flags? Thanks everyone
pbear, I'm no expert on this, but when I wanted to have N-S forces here is what I did and it worked. Forget about the start lines and place your forces where you want them. Then, when you are done, go into the start-line editing screen and hit the red flag, which is the auotmatic start line generator. You should have what you want then - it worked for me when I did it. WB or someone else may know a better technical way of doing it, but I just bumble around and find what works for me! :)



Mikimoto -> (4/12/2001 5:24:00 AM)

Hello Sir. Now I have no time for design, but I save the Messages for the future. I hope this is the class I had not in School. You are a Master Teacher. What do you think aboout linking all you classes in a file ready to download? In the future, of course. It can be named: Magistral classes from Wild Bill Rider. Warmaster Volume I. Thanks thanks tanks.



skukko -> (4/12/2001 7:18:00 AM)

Oh whellcome to all new map-engineers :D Lots of you and old lost 'boys' from the 'hood.. :D This mapthing must be taken carefull by doing your own tests and speaking of great map after it really works ;) I know it. Nothing bogs me more than repairing some oddities just because I was too fascinated of what I did and...that is other story. Deploylines:As Don said you can use automated liner. That redflag reads info of visibility-value. If your visibility is set to as default 21, (noon) 'liner' draws two lines that have 21 hexes between them. If you want to start far, put visibility to 80 in 100hex wide map. This is easily learned way to do it. And I repeat Don's words, don't take a problem of deploy lines, just set units to map and thats it. (BUT, this is scenario-design, don't try this in pbem-maps ! If you can deploy where ever you want in pbem, you have done wrong. Fix to this error is to get map back into editor and draw deploylines again and check that number one player is in correct side of the map...) Streams/canals/rivers: What you mean by saying that one hex is 50yards/meters and level10 is ten meters or ten yards? Forget it.- Yes. Forget it. Unless...-later..River is just as wide as it stays playable and don't kill the game by leaving AI to make an assault with rafts. So random maps use streams... When you want nice stream to run over your map, first you'll fill whole map with level 10. Then you think where you are going to have that stream. If you want to bend it somewhere, say left , pick up rocks to your drawing tool and add rocks/rough to that place. Just one or two hexes. Do like this for a while and when you have imagned by this where you want to lay that stream, pick up stream tool and draw it from Curve to Curve. If you draw it straight, it looks like it. Now you have a piece of stream there. You want it to be river? Do it. This is automated. But why to do automated things as you can do it in hard way? Convert stream to 6 hex wide river and pick up swamp tool, left click to fill river with swamp. Don't be carefull on clicking on outside areas of the river, we'll throw some mud there later. Now when your beautyfull river is converted to ugly swamp which is, -2 of altitude. Now you can do many differend things, but we wanted to do stream/river. Pick up swamp/ take marshes. Leftclick along the swampy area, try to focus to do this into the middle of the swamp-icons, this way it looks best. Now you got flooded out river. To make it little more narrow, simply take highgrass tool or mud and fill in river banks. Final color is made by filling banks with threes. Good result is achieved by simply cooking coffee, drinking it and practising. Different things? If you fill this swampriver-skecth with mud, it rises to zero-level. If you fill it with plain/eraser- tool it keeps its altitude status(-3?). If you fill it with sand tool, it rises to -1. What I do, is that I use eraser-tool and fill whole bottom with it. Wider the area is better result. After having whole swampy area filled by leftclicking, I'll add either mud, as now it don't rise the hight, (it stays down in-2) or highgrass to give it color. You can also remove Highgrasses +1 by clicking with eraser in the middle of 3 grasshex. I'll put in mud. Then I build a road in there. This can be done also in all terrain stances: Jungle, desert, winter, summer and rough. Result varies between these alot, -and use of them all in same map is differend story. Idea of this post is, test everything and go further on and test them as they were not designed, this way you learn capabilities of your tools and can after that start to think about historical, or hysterical maps. I don't get much fun doing histo* maps, they are just plain copies... :D but atleast I can use this copymachine ;) mosh īThere were more thing I wanted to say, but... :eek: I think this is enough for now..



Wild Bill -> (4/12/2001 1:52:00 PM)

Those are some very good practical suggestions, Mosh. You have been doing your homework and mine too ;) And as you say, and let me re-emphasize, doing is the key. No one will ever get much out of these little lessons unless they take the time to practice, to draw, to experiment. I can't urge you enough to do this. There simply is no other way to become somewhat proficient at map making except trial and error. Of course, if we can move a few rocks out of your path, so much the better. But we can't walk the path for you. It is one you must trod. While you are at it, practice mixing terrains. Swamps are edged usually in mud and high grass with foliage. Streams and rivers don't have beaches normally, but are very green and often rough. Be realistic, but leave the map playable. That is important. Check for LOS in areas where you want it. You can do that by purchasing a few units and using them to test just what they can and cannot see. More to come.... Wild Bill



RockinHarry -> (4/12/2001 9:38:00 PM)

Hello all
quote:

Originally posted by Wild Bill: Harry, this is a forum. Feel free to chip in with ideas from Fred's fine program!
Yeah, I just meant, that it might confuse more than it helps, to mention about certain capabilities in Freds Editor! :eek: There are a lot of tricks that can be done in the SPWAW Editor itself and I find it best, to cover them first in this thread. ....and I donīt want to interfere with the teacher. :o
quote:

Higher terrain can be done, but not within the game. It is tricky and done with Chlanda's map editor. I don't know how to do it. Redleg and others are better at that than I.
My experience is (with redlegs support), that it is possible to build Level 40/50 (and higher) hills in Freds Editor....But itīs a lot of work and I think itīs beyond the scope of this thread, to explain it here. :eek: (Not for quick successes...) Iīm just preparing a "How to..." guide, with a tips nītricks section for Freds MapEdit and it also has the appropriate tables.
quote:

For PBear, I think there is a terrain effects list in the manual. I'll look. I have one somewhere.
You can also open the terrain.txt file in SPWAW main directory for a quick view. Some terrain DefenseValues are still missing though. (hedges, RR, RR-bridges, wrecks and shellholes for example) __________ Harry



Wild Bill -> (4/12/2001 9:44:00 PM)

Please do it, Harry. I'd love to have such a tutorial...Wild Bill



RockinHarry -> (4/12/2001 10:00:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by ectizen: extra edit to add: However that raises a question: Is the depth of the water in any way related to its height? Is a -3 Coral Reef possible? How about -1 Deep Water? I'll have my fine-toothed comb at the ready, awaiting your response :)
Hi ectizen, This is a really good question! I found out, that some terrain classes in SPWAW are also to be differentiated by their "height" value. Actually, there seems to be no "height" of below "zero" at all! -1,-2,-3 are Flags for certain terrain classes. Change them and you likely get a different terrain showing up! Everything below -3 seems to be treated by SPWAW as (deep) water. You also might see these grass hexes with +1 height added to the basic terrain. Actually, SPWAW uses just terrain alterations of 5 and anything other than this, doesnīt seem to influence LOS at all. So this +1 "height" is just a flag. Ok,...enough confusion for today. :D ________ Harry



ectizen -> (4/13/2001 1:35:00 AM)

Hi RockinHarry! Having spent way too many hours toiling away in front of the map editor, Fred's WAWMap, and a couple of custom tools of my own design ;), I think I've fathomed the negative height thing. It seems to be a combination of both height and flag. -3 is sea level, and very wet. It is completely surrounded by wet terrain. -2 is a little higher, and can be described as usually wet ground: canals, swamps, river banks. Gullies are an exception - but since they seem to be dry streams, that's ok. -1 is a little higher again, but still not at ground level. It can be wet (marshes) or dry (beaches, trenches). 0 is ground level. Usually dry. We can have both -3 Shallow Water, and -3 Deep Water because the height is the surface, not the depth. The flag aspect is seen in swamps and marshes - the only difference between the two is the height (and the tiles). Oh, also in ditches and streams. I think I have grasped this. Now all I need is for someone to come along tell me it's all wrong :). Now, to the other end of the altimeter: the very high terrain. I would greatly appreciate some info about building thing in WAWMap. If I can figure out how it's done, I'll be able to finish the Mountainiser! Currently, the Mountainiser only produces weird maps, like the 60 height hill with a 25 height slope down to 50 height, and the 10 height hill with the 5 height slope down to the 20 height plains below :eek: Feel free to email me, if you have something on this, but don't want to subject everyone else in this thread to such obscure trivialities. :)



Don -> (4/13/2001 2:13:00 AM)

Harry is correct - learning about WAWMAP at this stage would be like trying to learn advanced car mechanics while still learning to do a tune-up. For the people just learning to make maps, you'll have to learn what the SPWAW map editor can and cannot do before you can go on to see what WAWMAP can add to it. As WB suggested, just practice using all of the buttons, just to see how things work. Lay out a stream and see how the underlying terrain changes. Lay RR track with different terrain under it to see how it looks. Look at maps done by WB and others to see how they do things. After laying terrain, look at it from different zoom levels. Extensive right-clicking can result in un-natural looking hexagonal blobs of terrain that don't look right - be sure to break those up.



Wild Bill -> (4/13/2001 3:00:00 AM)

Our training guru has spoken wisely. Don has made amazing progress in both map making and scenario design over the last six months. It is proof that this stuff is learnable and fun. ECit...your analysis is excellent on the various levels. Sorry I can't be of help on those high hills. Perhaps we'll get it in the game one day. It's been relatively low in the list of priorities all through the evolution of SPWAW. It is something we want and hope some day to have. I've learned again and again that you can always "make do" with this editor. As a side note of interest, did you know that the SP editor was almost not included in the game? I was on the beta team for that version (and the others) and I remember that it was discussed. The editor initially was only a tool to create some scenarios for the game. NO ONE anticipated that this then unappreciated feature would continually rejuvenate the game and keep it alive far past the life-span of most games. Nice to have it now, isn't it? Wild Bill



skukko -> (4/13/2001 4:33:00 PM)

Editor in the game has kept this thing alive and will keep it kicking far beyond of what we can imagine. Editor's future is unknown to me, but what I've seen, is that it is getting a bit enhancements. B]Editing Map:[/B] Remember/ note that right click and left click have differend outcome. For example if you build level 10 and click it with rightMbutton level 10 comes to 0. If you click it with lefMB level 10 comes to 5. This works in all heights. In fifth release mud/swamp/rough -terrain movement has more penalties than in 4.5. If you are going to use lots of these in your map, keep in mind that vehicles get broken, immoed by terrain. nothing more right now mosh



panda124c -> (4/13/2001 7:19:00 PM)

Next question: I have built my small river 1 hex wide by laying down a string of deep water hexes. Is there any way to change the shore line from half land to full land without effecting the water hexes?? In other words I'd like to have a river 50 yd wide with a lvl 10 bank next to the deep water hexes.



ruxius -> (4/13/2001 7:38:00 PM)

Right obs Skukko.. The more powerful the editor is ..and then more people make that game his own terrain of creativity... E'body knows about this... AS for my homework : it was very funny to notice that if you press the combination of buttons WRITE A NAME ON THE MAP and the FILL button you are forced to fill an entire area of text in the battlefield.. this is obvious unuseful as a discovery except for the fact that I understood that text hexes are limited..(yes ..I know that a limit always exists in every source code...) but it's about the size , the amount of that that I was surprised.. After this incident I had to delete some txt to write again.. Experiments go on ....



DoubleDeuce -> (4/13/2001 8:32:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by ruxius: Right obs Skukko.. The more powerful the editor is ..and then more people make that game his own terrain of creativity... E'body knows about this...
Agreed! The more control over the battlefield a gamer has as far as designing the terrain to fight on the longer life is breathed into this game. PS. I plan to print the text of this forum and print it for future refernece. The information in here is great. Thanks all!



Wild Bill -> (4/14/2001 3:33:00 AM)

Thank you Double D! And the rest of you who are learning and are letting me know. Now, an update! NEXT CLASE AOMW # will be Monday. Now we go into the nitty-gritty and help you make your own generic type scenario. We begin with a map that you will make step by step. Don't miss it.



ectizen -> (4/14/2001 8:48:00 AM)

Here's the most important discovery I've made: the map terrain type buttons (summer, winter, jungle, desert & rough) don't select the type of map, but instead select the features drawn on the map. Yeah, it's obvious, especially when reading the the posts in this thread, but that doesn't mean it was obvious to me ;) I got a kick out of putting snow-capped hills in the desert. Ok, so I'm easily amused :) ruxius: I wish you'd mentioned what happened in a little more detail! I tried filling the map with text, thinking it would use the same text as the original hex. I didn't realise I'd have to spend the next five minutes answering about a hundred requests for a text message! :eek: WB: I'm looking forward to the next lesson!



ruxius -> (4/14/2001 6:41:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by ectizen: ruxius: I didn't realise I'd have to spend the next five minutes answering about a hundred requests for a text message! :eek:
ahahah..Sorry mister , I only intended to 'share' my experience... :) :) Anyway console yourself..unaware of this (it was set a range 8 )without the functionality if the ESC button I missed many times the last entering txt box so I repeated this trail of tears three times..well I can say I paid my bill ! ;) ;) ;)



ruxius -> (4/14/2001 9:11:00 PM)

First of all Good Easter to all of you ! An happy AP shell inside your favourite Easter egg !! :D now New experiments.. a ) I found that map names are difficult to be read with desert background and almost impossible with winter clear terrains.. is there any way to change the text colour ? b)how could be simulated a "cut & paste" option inside the map editor ? I have this need when I would like to have a sequence of the same kind of house without being crazy to click on them every time .. c) for my scenario I wuold like to have some bungalows or huts instead of wooden houses.. it could be very common in Pacific island scenarios..have you seen something similar ? ------- Well my first Cliff has APPEARED...thank you WB !



Don -> (4/15/2001 1:28:00 AM)

Hi ruxius, The text is hard to read, but during a game it will be in the darker "fog of war" and much easier to read. When you deploy, highlight a unit, then right-click to check it's LOS and the rest of the map will go dark and you'll see what I mean. When you find a certain building that you want to use more than one of, the "z" key should "lock" the current building and you can place them all over! :) There'll be many new buildings in 5.0, but I don't think those are in there. There is room for user-defined stuff though, so if you can make your own you can put them in.



RockinHarry -> (4/15/2001 4:18:00 AM)

Hi all I found the buildings in/on winter maps looking a bit odd. Means, no snow cover on the roofs. Would you like to see snow covered buildings? Also, I like to have a layer of darker shaded hexes beneath trees/woods and I use clear terrain tiles from "rough" terrain set for this purpose, at least for level-0 terrain. Itīs looking more natural to me, than the green tiles. It has more depth... __________ Harry



ruxius -> (4/15/2001 7:47:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Don : The text is hard to read but (....)
....Or for instance you can decide to put some roads or trees just to have a less frustrating background colour around that location.. Hello Don ..Yes..a way to make it visible is still possible..also nice is using unit's LOS ....but ...
quote:

When you find a certain building that you want to use more than one of, the "z" key (...)
Hey ! This is a very interesting and helpful answer...thank you very much for this contribute ! how did you find it ?
quote:

There is room for user-defined stuff though, so if you can make your own you can put them in.
do you mean edit a hut's image to be added to the list of the buildings' icons ? well I should steal directly from the genius of Mike Amos himself..I managed to provide myself with the PsP 7.0 and the latest version of Infraview ecc. hoping to finally edit the files *.shp (I think that terrains are represented in that format..) but nothing to do that format is not supported by anything ... like the other ultra-mysterious files that shows films of WWII and are included since the old SP1 the files *.smk how to play and edit them ? another great enigma !
quote:

Originally posted by RockinHarry: I found the buildings in/on winter maps looking a bit odd. Means, no snow cover on the roofs. Would you like to see snow covered buildings?
I too noticed that..nevertheless I liked to see some fields that in winter have froze in them ..and what about the weird picture of a winter Graveyard ?
quote:

(...) It has more depth... [/b
and also a more expensive movement cost.. :) But it looks fine as you write..



Don -> (4/15/2001 9:14:00 AM)

Hi Ruxius,
quote:

Hello Don ..Yes..a way to make it visible is still possible..also nice is using unit's LOS ....but ...
Yea, I know. But, it is what we have to work with, so we just make up ways to "deal" with it.
quote:

how did you find it ?
:) I'm getting confused about which features are in which versions, but that "z" key thing will lock the different wooden or stone buildings in 5.0. Try it in 4.5 and see if it works! Yes, in the new version user-defined buildings can be added. Won't be long now! :D



Wild Bill -> (4/15/2001 3:08:00 PM)

Map Making Part Two due here very shortly. I think you'll like this one, guys. Thanks to Tankhead for his help on this one...WB



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