WestPac 1.0 Questions (Full Version)

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gbnf -> WestPac 1.0 Questions (3/12/2008 1:55:07 AM)

I did my 1st mission and acutally won it last night. But I had some questions. Before the questions will be the final stats of the battle:

Final Stats:
Lost Me Red
Ships: 0 1
Subs: 1 2
Aircraft: 0 4
Bases: 0 1 (damaged)
AD Mobile: 2 1
Armored: 1 1
Unarmored: 1 1

1) Why didn’t the enemy F16 or F14 attack my AEW aircraft at the beginning of the scenario? They should have been able to spot it since the radar was active and they were a lot closer to it than my F18’s when I launched them from my airbase.
2) Were 3 AIM 120C5 AMRAAM AAM’s too much for 1 F16C/D?
3) Were 4 AIM 120C5 AMRAAM AAM’s too much for 1 F14 D? And why didn’t the F14 fire any phoenix missiles at me, don’t they have a longer range than the AMRAAM’s?
4) Were 16 RGM-84 Harpoon II missiles too much for 1 Arctic Unit ZXOD (5 actually hit the ship)?
5) Is there really such a thing as a neutral sub? If it were yours or an ally’s then shouldn’t you know about it? How close am I supposed to let an unknown sub get to me before I defend myself?
6) Do I have to set the same course for a plane that’s launching for another returning plane that needs to refuel?
7) Should I have sent a P3 out earlier in the battle and set course for my own sub instead of leaving it on its own to find and kill the enemy subs?
8) Should I have sent out a few F111’s to help attack the land convoy that gave my land units so much trouble when they had a visual on the enemy, instead of waiting until I starting losing units? The land battle was actually the hardest part of the scenario in terms of micromanagement and losses. My tanks would not follow the enemy convoy, even when they had a visual and I had directed them on an interception course.
9) What was the total victory for this scenario? I took the option of minimum victory because I was afraid that if I passed and was not able to accomplish the requirements for total victory, then I would lose out on even getting the minimum.
10) Was there a way to get the attack helicopters to help attack the enemy convoy? It kept saying that it was too far and that helicopters couldn’t do in flight-refueling. I tried to send it to the enemy air base that I just attacked, but it said it couldn’t go there either. I figured that the helicopters were put there in the scenario for a reason; I just couldn’t find a way to use them.




TonyE -> RE: WestPac 1.0 Questions (3/12/2008 3:23:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gbnf
1) Why didn’t the enemy F16 or F14 attack my AEW aircraft at the beginning of the scenario? They should have been able to spot it since the radar was active and they were a lot closer to it than my F18’s when I launched them from my airbase.


That is a scenario design trick. The F-16 and F-14 both start with a Ferry loadout, the longest ranged weapon carried in that configuration by these planes is a 9.6nm range Sidewinder missile on the F-14. The F-14 should indeed have been able to spot the AEW bird eventually, by which time it was probably too late.

quote:


2) Were 3 AIM 120C5 AMRAAM AAM’s too much for 1 F16C/D?

That's a personal preference, I think 2 AMRAAM for an F-16 would be appropriate, 3 adds in a little assurance. In terms of game operation, the hit chance per missile goes up if you fire more than one missile per target, but doesn't benefit from extreme overkill (i.e. 6 AMRAAM at that F-16).

quote:


3) Were 4 AIM 120C5 AMRAAM AAM’s too much for 1 F14 D? And why didn’t the F14 fire any phoenix missiles at me, don’t they have a longer range than the AMRAAM’s?

That is quite a few for an F-14, my first instinct again would be 2 AMRAAM, if I'm feeling stingy, 1 AMRAAM.

quote:


4) Were 16 RGM-84 Harpoon II missiles too much for 1 Arctic Unit ZXOD (5 actually hit the ship)?

333 Damage Points (DP) for the Artic (AOE Supply), about 45 DP per Harpoon, so 16 isn't an outrageous number. I'm a little surprised that so few hit given the meager defenses, but that's the breaks sometimes.

quote:


5) Is there really such a thing as a neutral sub? If it were yours or an ally’s then shouldn’t you know about it? How close am I supposed to let an unknown sub get to me before I defend myself?

I'm pretty militant in such situations and play better safe than sorry. Then again if you accidentally sink a Russian boomer transiting a conflict zone it didn't realize was a conflict zone, life would be quite dreadful for your career prospects. So I think the individual situation suggests one stance or another. Many scenarios state whether all out war is in progress (kill anything that moves pretty much) or whether this is a start of conflict situation where you may want to be extra careful.

quote:


6) Do I have to set the same course for a plane that’s launching for another returning plane that needs to refuel?

It depends upon your own style of play, some people will use the long range patrol and manually calculate when a new plane will need to launch and set up the patrol to be a repeat patrol for that calculated interval. The continuous patrol is more akin to assigning one aircraft to the job (it takes off, patrols, comes back to base, re-arms/fuels, then asks to take off again). So the answer is a definite "it depends". I like to use repeat patrols when the situation isn't dire.

quote:


7) Should I have sent a P3 out earlier in the battle and set course for my own sub instead of leaving it on its own to find and kill the enemy subs?

The idea was to use your submarine for the operation so in this case you did the intended procedure. When you are playing 'real' scenarios definitely make use of P-3 and any other platforms the opposing submarine cannot kill.

quote:


8) Should I have sent out a few F111’s to help attack the land convoy that gave my land units so much trouble when they had a visual on the enemy, instead of waiting until I starting losing units? The land battle was actually the hardest part of the scenario in terms of micromanagement and losses. My tanks would not follow the enemy convoy, even when they had a visual and I had directed them on an interception course.

Again, the intent was to fight the difficult battle there land units against land units so in this case the answer is no, F-111s weren't intended to help win the day from the start. In a more serious scenario, definitely provide air support in whatever way possible. Land warfare is fairly new to HC and due to a targeting restriction (based around centers of groups, not distance from my unit to the enemy unit) requires that micro-management you discovered. So I guess the tutorial introduced you to the challenges of land war in HC ;)

quote:


9) What was the total victory for this scenario? I took the option of minimum victory because I was afraid that if I passed and was not able to accomplish the requirements for total victory, then I would lose out on even getting the minimum.

That was pretty mean of me, there is no total victory in the scenario, only minimum victory for the Blue side. In HC what victory you have cannot be taken away no matter what happens.

Blue Minimum Victory
Red Minimum Victory
Red Total Victory

is a valid sequence, the Blue minimum victory is not erased even if Red has a total victory before Blue does (and you can continue playing no matter what until all your ships/subs/mobile land units are killed or time runs out).

quote:


10) Was there a way to get the attack helicopters to help attack the enemy convoy? It kept saying that it was too far and that helicopters couldn’t do in flight-refueling. I tried to send it to the enemy air base that I just attacked, but it said it couldn’t go there either. I figured that the helicopters were put there in the scenario for a reason; I just couldn’t find a way to use them.

There is no way to get the attack copters out to the enemy convoy. There are just there to tinker with. If one gets really creative the attack helos can be ferried to your surface ships and then used against the Red airbase (well, the convoy too but that'd take a lot of sailing!).

Thanks for posting your questions and observations up, I'm sure many will benefit.




gbnf -> RE: WestPac 1.0 Questions (3/12/2008 3:55:06 AM)

Thank you for the impute [:)].  How do I find out the damage points for weapons and platforms?  I'm sure it's something obvious I'm missing.  Also, I know that certain tech levels of aircraft shouldn't go against more advanced ones.  Where would I go to get an idea about what planes shouldn't fight other planes, or ship vs ship too?




gbnf -> RE: WestPac 1.0 Questions (3/12/2008 4:41:11 AM)

5) Is there really such a thing as a neutral sub? If it were yours or an ally’s then shouldn’t you know about it? How close am I supposed to let an unknown sub get to me before I defend myself?

quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyE
I'm pretty militant in such situations and play better safe than sorry. Then again if you accidentally sink a Russian boomer transiting a conflict zone it didn't realize was a conflict zone, life would be quite dreadful for your career prospects. So I think the individual situation suggests one stance or another. Many scenarios state whether all out war is in progress (kill anything that moves pretty much) or whether this is a start of conflict situation where you may want to be extra careful.



So does that mean that I shouldn't follow the maxim from H2 strategy guide that said "respond to a platform's(ship/sub/plane) capabilities, not their intentions"? I know that no strategy is absolute, but the guide emphasized this point quite a bit. Also, what would be the normal range you would use before firing a torpedo against another sub? I realize that it will depend on the range of the sub, but overall are we talking about .5 nm, 1nm, 2nm, ect...?





TonyE -> RE: WestPac 1.0 Questions (3/12/2008 4:45:06 AM)

I used the platform display to find the damage points for the weapons and the platforms (Reports menu, the Platform Display, or Ctrl+d). 

As for aircraft capabilities, the agility ratings aren't shown in the game itself, you would have to use the platform editor to view those (ATA and DATA ratings).

As for what should and shouldn't pick a fight with something else...  I don't know the best place to find that, I think most pick it up over time and by paging through warship books from the library (I'm old fashioned and like books rather than looking at a computer screen). 





TonyE -> RE: WestPac 1.0 Questions (3/12/2008 4:54:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gbnf

5) Is there really such a thing as a neutral sub? If it were yours or an ally’s then shouldn’t you know about it? How close am I supposed to let an unknown sub get to me before I defend myself?

quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyE
I'm pretty militant in such situations and play better safe than sorry. Then again if you accidentally sink a Russian boomer transiting a conflict zone it didn't realize was a conflict zone, life would be quite dreadful for your career prospects. So I think the individual situation suggests one stance or another. Many scenarios state whether all out war is in progress (kill anything that moves pretty much) or whether this is a start of conflict situation where you may want to be extra careful.



So does that mean that I shouldn't follow the maxim from H2 strategy guide that said "respond to a platform's(ship/sub/plane) capabilities, not their intentions"? I know that no strategy is absolute, but the guide emphasized this point quite a bit. Also, what would be the normal range you would use before firing a torpedo against another sub? I realize that it will depend on the range of the sub, but overall are we talking about .5 nm, 1nm, 2nm, ect...?



The H2 strategy guide is giving you good advice for a declared blue water (open ocean) encounter, not when transiting the Straight of Hormuz (littoral, congested waters). If a Ticonderoga class cruiser used the H2 strategy guide approach to such a movement, it would be sunk, but granted only after downing a pile and friendly and unfriendly aircraft [8D] if responding based on capability was the overriding restriction. imho that guide applies well to the expected Cold War naval battles fought on the open ocean, not so much for other situations.

When would I fire against another sub if I'm driving a sub? If I know anything about the opposing sub, specifically what class of sub and its top speed, I'll take that into account and try to get close enough that he cannot outrun my torpedo. Otherwise I like to get down to just under half of my maximum torpedo range before I fire (I'm normally driving US subs with fairly fast torps), then open range and change heading while waiting to find out if the torpedos hit or not.

Stalintc is actually compiling a thorough ASW guide applicable to the game, if some people like me ever get around to critiquing it he'll probably post it up for public consumption.





eclipsetr -> RE: WestPac 1.0 Questions (3/12/2008 3:00:14 PM)

Wouldn't a neutral sub just continue on its original course even if it had spotted you, while an enemy sub would head in your direction? so its pretty simple once you spot a enemy sub try some manuevers if it tries to shadow you chanses are its a bad guy if not it may still be a bad guy it just hasn't spotted you yet. By the way this wouldn't work in real life because "neutral" countries use subs all the time to try to shadow others people forces during times of low level conflicts and training exersises to try to gauge capabilities... Its hard driving a tincan underwater and can cause health problems such as death....




Shark7 -> RE: WestPac 1.0 Questions (3/12/2008 10:42:49 PM)

On the issue of minimum and total victory conditions, think of it this way:

Each side has its own goals that it wants to complete in the scenario, blue side achieving their goals does not preclude red side from being able to achieve theirs. Both sides can in fact get total victory, if they achieve all their goals.

The main thing to remember in HCE is that each side has its own goals and the player can achieve his/her goals independantly of whether the computer opponant achieves its goals or not.

Not related to HCE, but in real life you can achieve your goals, but it my be a pyrrhic victory, that is to say you sustained losses that negate your victory. HCE does not track this. An example of a pyrrhic victory would be to sink a convoy, but losing an aircraft carrier in the process. You would still achieve your victory condition, but your loss was much greater than your opponant's loss.




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