RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames?

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Kuokkanen -> RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? (3/15/2008 10:16:46 PM)
Digital (computer and otherwise) wargames have two major advantages over paper & dice ones: Internet & price. As I've said in other topic, $80 + shipping for SPWAW General's Edition is dirt cheap when compared to miniature wargames with plenty of stuff to buy (BattleTech, Warhammers etc.). Many computer wargames are available for free. Internet offers opponents throughout the Internet. These are somethings that traditional wargames can't compete with any time soon.

geozero -> RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? (3/15/2008 11:39:57 PM)
The problem with that analogy is that to play that $80 game requires an investment of about $1000, sometimes more for the PC and hardware. Playing PBEM requires internet connection... another cost factor. Within 5-10 years the OS will be upgraded and that game will not work anymore. You need a copy of the game for each player. These issues don't affect Paper Games. One game can be played by any number of people that get together to play it. You don't need expensive hardware. The game will not stop working over time, or become obsolete. You can take it with you anywhere, play at friends house, at a picnic, ANYWHERE. You don't need additional costs to play the game. It's like saying no one will read books because information is available on the internet.

Jeffrey H. -> RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? (3/16/2008 12:58:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy quote: ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H. quote: ORIGINAL: geozero There's another aspect of playing paper games... I just love the feel of standing around a huge map and seeing the battle unfold, much like a field commander would. There is (as has been said) something inherently pure and simple about holding a unit in your hand and moving it or rolling dice. If you're lucky enough to play face to face on a paper game it is just a great experience, both social and educational. There's way too many game store that have gone out of business... here in SoCal I know of only one left. It's sad. I've been buying more papergames lately, and using vassal system to actually help develop and design some of my own game ideas, which I may release as paper games. There's one left ? Where is it ? There are a few here in San Diego, but they are hybrid shops that usually host Warhammer 40k and other types of games that kids play these days. I've always wanted to show up there and play out a game of AH "The Russian Campaign" jst to show them what else might be out there in the gaming landscape. Aside from that ConSimWorld is the true home of FTF wargaming. He's right. I live In San Diego too and they usually host Warhammer. Jeffery, I live in Mira Mesa by the way! But you know, the ONLY reason that I know Matrix even exists is because I saw Gary Grigsby's World at War on a shelf in Best Buy one day. I'm just up the road in Carmel Valley, Torrey Hills really but most people give me a blank stare when I tell them that. I do a once a month trip to Camp Pendleton for some FTF gaming, usually wargames. Oftem times we play euro games because they are accessible and multi-player. Are you interested in any perticular boardgames these days ?

reg113 -> RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? (3/16/2008 1:36:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: geozero Look at how simple Afirka Korps was? And it still is a better game hands down than most of the PC games in the last 10 years or more. Amen [:)]

freeboy -> RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? (3/16/2008 2:20:47 AM)
I l;ove to see that poeple are using the older gaming systems, to me it seems a re assurance of gamings health. That being said I hardly think paper gaming even compares unit sales or dollar/euro sales to the computer industry.. unless you measure a very very narrow group of games...

geozero -> RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? (3/16/2008 3:29:00 AM)
Let's see about putting together a gaming all day event. Play ASL or Russian Campaign or even Third Reich with a few players. Any takers in SoCal?

ravinhood -> RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? (3/16/2008 3:37:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: geozero The problem with that analogy is that to play that $80 game requires an investment of about $1000, sometimes more for the PC and hardware. Playing PBEM requires internet connection... another cost factor. Within 5-10 years the OS will be upgraded and that game will not work anymore. You need a copy of the game for each player. These issues don't affect Paper Games. One game can be played by any number of people that get together to play it. You don't need expensive hardware. The game will not stop working over time, or become obsolete. You can take it with you anywhere, play at friends house, at a picnic, ANYWHERE. You don't need additional costs to play the game. It's like saying no one will read books because information is available on the internet. I'm glad someone finally pointed this out about computer games vs paper games. Espeically the fact you only need one copy and the game will never be obsolete. You multiply that $80 around x 6 people plus the $1000 hardware and accessories and that's a lot of money JUST to play ONE game.

Prince of Eckmühl -> RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? (3/16/2008 7:45:57 AM)
I had to read the author's post several times to fully digest what he was suggesting. In response, all I can say is NO. If anything, I think that computer gaming seriouly undermined boardgame sales. PoE (aka ivanmoe)

Adam Parker -> RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? (3/16/2008 11:47:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Custer Hi Adam, I made the statement based on memory. If I recall correctly, Dean Essig of The Gamers (a paper wargame company) had a house magazine called Operations. Amazingly, he gave specific sales numbers on his games, as well as, profit and loss. He also openly discussed his problems with the down turn in the early 90's and showed it openly with his sales numbers. Don't forget that in the early 90's we were in recession. As the world came out of it in the mid 90's, it was greeted with the Rolling Stones and Windows 95 "Start Me Up". Such promise, now manifest in real tme clickfests, FP shooters, the EA sports games and MMPRPG's.

Charles2222 -> RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? (3/17/2008 1:00:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ravinhood quote: ORIGINAL: geozero The problem with that analogy is that to play that $80 game requires an investment of about $1000, sometimes more for the PC and hardware. Playing PBEM requires internet connection... another cost factor. Within 5-10 years the OS will be upgraded and that game will not work anymore. You need a copy of the game for each player. These issues don't affect Paper Games. One game can be played by any number of people that get together to play it. You don't need expensive hardware. The game will not stop working over time, or become obsolete. You can take it with you anywhere, play at friends house, at a picnic, ANYWHERE. You don't need additional costs to play the game. It's like saying no one will read books because information is available on the internet. I'm glad someone finally pointed this out about computer games vs paper games. Espeically the fact you only need one copy and the game will never be obsolete. You multiply that $80 around x 6 people plus the $1000 hardware and accessories and that's a lot of money JUST to play ONE game. I think you're getting a little bit demagogueric here rh. Think about it. All something needs to fade in obscurity is for it to be bettered by something else. If you believed what you just said, then apparently you believe paper games cannot even be bettered by future paper games. Sounds like you also have no hope for the future of paper games when you admit that. Me? I would love to see Bomb Alley become obsolete (though -not- being able to play it unless I have an AppleII, and the game itself, weighs quite heavily against that notion in the first place), but nobody ever remade anything similar. Heck, even though I don't play it anymore, I'm more than happy for WIR2 to turn WIR into dust.

Charles2222 -> RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? (3/17/2008 1:04:11 AM)
ravinhood: Oh, BTW rh. Before you think my demagogueric comment was out of place, I wondered about that myself for a bit, then I went to Websters Online and found this second definition. Let's see if it fits, shall we? a leader championing the cause of the common people in ancient times[&o] Oh man, I'm am laughing myself silly!

ravinhood -> RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? (3/17/2008 4:18:47 AM)
Man whatever it is you're smoking these days Charles I want a puff. ;)

Charles2222 -> RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? (3/17/2008 5:23:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ravinhood Man whatever it is you're smoking these days Charles I want a puff. ;) Having already championed the cause for the ancient peoples, I'm quite sure you have taken a puff or two already. Now to give it the ol' ravinhood signature quote - (lol).

Gem35 -> RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? (3/17/2008 5:29:27 AM)
by all means, don't be a bogart, my friend...

Charles2222 -> RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? (3/17/2008 5:32:59 AM)
What on earth would a bogart be? I didn't know Bogie knew about rh's ancient fixations.

Gem35 -> RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? (3/17/2008 5:33:59 AM)
ahem..... http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bogart&defid=988065

Charles2222 -> RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? (3/17/2008 5:37:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gem35 ahem..... http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bogart&defid=988065 I don't get it gemsie, but it's hilarious nonetheless. He talks about smoking, and then you resort to a dictionary yourself, and what does it mention? Smoking a joint as an example of bogarting. Man, I thought I was funny! In case you didn't get my comments earlier, they were somewhat subtle, thusly making them the more funny (rh ought to have known what I was talking about if he didn't). I only explain this because this seems to be what you mean by bogarting, that you don't understand what I find as funny (and in now revealing it thus I lose the bogartness of the situation if I understand your meaning). He's always on this kick of pushing ancient games (literally, wargames from the ancient world) while condemning anymore WWII games, so while my comment of him being a demagogue for what he said in that one particular post seemed to me to not fit terribly well, ended up with a whole other meaning when I looked it up, which I listed above, about an ancient leader for the common people, therefore rendering what was a straight comment about demagoguery into the humourous sphere. Oh well, if nobody gets it that's fine. It wouldn't be the first time, but I at least find your dictionary example pf bogarting quite humorous indeed, considering his comments of wanting to smoke something which we already know he's had more than his fair share of[:D]

Gem35 -> RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? (3/17/2008 5:38:53 AM)
Ravinhood mentioned that whatever it is that you are smoking to give him a puff... I guess my mind went all the way to the gutter and i appoligize for derailing your thoughts. [:)]

Charles2222 -> RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? (3/17/2008 5:59:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gem35 Ravinhood mentioned that whatever it is that you are smoking to give him a puff... I guess my mind went all the way to the gutter and i appoligize for derailing your thoughts. [:)] No, strangely enough you enhanced them. But I think rh is better off with me bogarting him, that is, if we're talking about smoking funny cigarettes, but then again I'm not a very gifted bogarter, when you consider I've never even taken a secret puff of any leafy substances[:D].

Gem35 -> RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? (3/17/2008 6:01:45 AM)
well good for you then, it's a bad habit. Go Mavs!!

Charles2222 -> RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? (3/17/2008 6:19:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gem35 well good for you then, it's a bad habit. Go Mavs!! Definitely, go Mavs!!!

06 Maestro -> RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? (3/17/2008 6:55:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: geozero - Russian Campaign is still one of my favorite AH games...haven't playe it in years. That was a great game, but I have not played that in about 20 years. I have not even seen it for about 10 years, but I know I still have it. It's in the attic right next to "Stalingrad", "Barbarossa" and a few other old A/H titles. SPI's "Kursk" in up there too. After the kids are grown and gone I may set up a gaming room for the old board games. At this time I don't really see the point of giving up the added realism of PC games, particularly the "pause-able continuous time" versions for an artifact. Of course, it is possible that as I age my mind will slow to where I can only handle playing IGOUGO on a board against myself. I can see it all now; a huge magnifying glass and big fluffy dice that I won't lose or hurt myself with...

ravinhood -> RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? (3/17/2008 11:52:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Charles_22 quote: ORIGINAL: Gem35 Ravinhood mentioned that whatever it is that you are smoking to give him a puff... I guess my mind went all the way to the gutter and i appoligize for derailing your thoughts. [:)] No, strangely enough you enhanced them. But I think rh is better off with me bogarting him, that is, if we're talking about smoking funny cigarettes, but then again I'm not a very gifted bogarter, when you consider I've never even taken a secret puff of any leafy substances[:D]. The first sign is denial. ;) Now I know who this guy reminds me of. CHARLES EMMERSON WINCHESTER THE IIIrd. ;)

Kuokkanen -> RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? (3/17/2008 1:24:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ravinhood I'm glad someone finally pointed this out about computer games vs paper games. Espeically the fact you only need one copy and the game will never be obsolete. I assure you ravinhood, BattleTech 2nd Edition is very much obsolete by now. So is BattleSpace. Time to upgrade to Classic BattleTech [:D]

Charles2222 -> RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? (3/17/2008 3:37:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen quote: ORIGINAL: ravinhood I'm glad someone finally pointed this out about computer games vs paper games. Espeically the fact you only need one copy and the game will never be obsolete. I assure you ravinhood, BattleTech 2nd Edition is very much obsolete by now. So is BattleSpace. Time to upgrade to Classic BattleTech [:D] No, he would stain his ancient traditions if he did that. What he won't tell you, is how he has already defiled the original wargame, plastic soldiers in the backyard, by going to these impure board and computer renditions. [image]http://www.makezine.com/blog/_temp_craftster_table_close2.jpg[/image] Oh how they wish ravinhood would come back to lead them to glory! If only they knew! Yes, it would be bad enough that he went onto those advanced models of wargaming, but to make matters even worse, they're not even the right era for him. Maybe we should give them a sword or something and RH might reconsider?

ravinhood -> RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? (3/17/2008 5:44:57 PM)
Ummmm what does all that mess have to do with the TOPIC Charles Emmerson Winchester the IIIrd? ;)

Charles2222 -> RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? (3/17/2008 7:58:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ravinhood Ummmm what does all that mess have to do with the TOPIC Charles Emmerson Winchester the IIIrd? ;) It's the pre-paper era, the more ancient way of playing, in case you really don't get it. So what made you abandon the style of play that also would never be obsolete (just like bored gaming, er, board gaming, allegedly is [according to you that is])? One should question the worth of something which is so mundane that there's no possibility of change or that change would make it any better. You still don't get it? Aw well... You, asking somebody about being on topic? Now that's funny. [sm=happy0065.gif]

ravinhood -> RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? (3/17/2008 8:12:25 PM)
I don't see a biography of myself as being on topic that's all. But, if you wish to be a terminus well there's always a dot for you too. ;)

geozero -> RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? (3/18/2008 5:43:59 AM)
Getting back on track... anotehr advantage paper games have over PBEM games is that in the latter you have possible gamey tactics and cheats with players replaying turns, etc. In addition, PBEM sometimes takes days, weeks, and months, and if there's an update in the program it could cause all kinds of havoc, including possibly having to abandon a gane and start all over. None of that is present in a paper game, where the players come face to face (that's right, no more hiding behind firewalls and name calling), and play the game out right then and there. Even if you spend an entire day and don't finish, you can write down notes as to where all units were located and take it from that spot on another day... but if you've never played face to face a paper game you just are missing the real thrill of the moments in time when you defeat the enemy and stare him down. Nothing comes close to that in the sterile enviroment of a PC game played over an internet connection. You just can't BEAT a face to face game. [:)]

ravinhood -> RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? (3/18/2008 6:48:26 AM)
quote: (that's right, no more hiding behind firewalls and name calling), Yeah that's something big that happened with computers ain't it? See a lot of that childishness on every forum yah go to. Something that definitely wouldn't happen with a paper game face to face. Oh there's some arguing, but, I never heard any name calling or bullyboying. You'd get stomped where I come from if yah did that face to face. ;)

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