RE: Harpoon 3 – Advanced Naval Warfare Is Updated! (Full Version)

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FransKoenz -> RE: Harpoon 3 – Advanced Naval Warfare Is Updated! (4/29/2008 1:00:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dagooz

It takes two to tango... Or more.


Then I would say, invite the "author of the buglist for ANW 3.9.0." to dance the tango as well. I bet that both partners would perform well in a technical way, but of course, the tango is a very intense and emotional dance. I would prefere the Waltz, or even a "wooden shoe" dance [Klompendans]. Technically correct at a distance of at least 50cm.

Let's dance![:D]



BurntFingers -> RE: Harpoon 3 – Advanced Naval Warfare Is Updated! (4/29/2008 3:31:32 PM)

Signor Beretta, again you have posted an incomplete answer. I refer you to my question, and until it is answered I will not reply to your comments;-

quote:


Uhuh. NAME THEM PLEASE. Let's have Herman's little helpers outed. You've already put yourself in that catergory, and indicated "WE" so you are not the only one. Who? Exactly.


De Heer Taitennek, again I ask you for an English translation of the comment you made;-

quote:


Vind jij dat ook niet uiterst irritant? dat gezeur over PDB?
Ben je bezig met scn-design, heb je heel veel uitdagende scn geschreven, gaan ze je werk lopen afzeiken.


A forum is meant to be a debating ground. Now let's have the correct answers please.



Vincenzo_Beretta -> RE: Harpoon 3 – Advanced Naval Warfare Is Updated! (4/29/2008 6:03:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BurntFingers

Signor Beretta, again you have posted an incomplete answer. I refer you to my question, and until it is answered I will not reply to your comments;-



Which is the only thing you seem to be able to do consistently. [8|]

quote:


Uhuh. NAME THEM PLEASE. Let's have Herman's little helpers outed. You've already put yourself in that catergory, and indicated "WE" so you are not the only one. Who? Exactly.


Which part of "People who find and/or confirm bugs are openly credited ( http://tinyurl.com/34fogy ) - as someone possessing the facts of the matter would already have known."

and

"We" as in "we, the players - we who bought the game, enjoy playing it, give suggestions to the developers team and point out problems. I'm sorry to hear that for you is "nonsense".

Did you missed?

As a side note: if any of the people that provide you the "answers" that you do not have is not readily available, there is no need to grasp at straws to stall the debate. Just say so, and I will wait [:)]

Beside, while I'm waiting there is no need for you to keep avoiding Herman regarding the problems you have with him: he is always available on comp.sys.ibm.pc.war-historical, on SubSim.com on Gamesquad.com and on HarplonkHQ.com, on the two Yahoo Groups I mentioned earlier - and even on IRC (#harpgamer on Newnet.irc)

Yup, I read your statement:

quote:


But I like to be
Herman Hum free.
So do Matrix. It's their site. I like it. That's why I post here.
I'm pretty sure he didn't get banned for anything he PUBLICLY posted - rather, for a private communication.


Which is interesting, since, at the same time, you admit both your willingness to disparage someone without having the decency to face him, and the fact that you don't know why Herman is not on this forum - but you are willing make up explanations out of thin air anyway (something I was already aware of from your earlier posts).

My best advice is to throw away both these attitudes and try talk to this "evil demon form outer space" - you could be surprised (people did it and are still alive). Having said that, of course you are free to do what you wish - as I am free to think what I want about your attitude.

Cheers! [:)]



FransKoenz -> RE: Harpoon 3 – Advanced Naval Warfare Is Updated! (4/29/2008 8:14:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BurntFingers

De Heer Taitennek, again I ask you for an English translation of the comment you made;-

quote:


Vind jij dat ook niet uiterst irritant? dat gezeur over PDB?
Ben je bezig met scn-design, heb je heel veel uitdagende scn geschreven, gaan ze je werk lopen afzeiken.
.

Translation:

Dont'you think it is rather irritant? that crap about PDB?
You are a scn-designer, with lots of challenging scenarios, they turn your work down because of false critizism of your choice to use PDB as database.


quote:

A forum is meant to be a debating ground. Now let's have the correct answers please.


Command your dog, not me! Who the **** do you think you are? Pat McDonald?
Learn about the Harpoon history first before you start flamatorial koeiestront here. It is not a tribunal! [:@]

Greetings,
Frans Koenz, aka Taitennek



Shemar -> RE: Harpoon 3 – Advanced Naval Warfare Is Updated! (4/29/2008 11:51:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Vincenzo Beretta

"We" as in "we, the players - we who bought the game, enjoy playing it, give suggestions to the developers team and point out problems. I'm sorry to hear that for you is "nonsense".


Nobody gets to speak for 'the players' or 'the people who bought the game, enjoy playing it, give suggestions to the developers team and point out problems'. You can speak for yourself, or you can speak for a specific, defined and named group of people that has authorized you to speak for them, but you do not speak for 'the players'.



Vincenzo_Beretta -> RE: Harpoon 3 – Advanced Naval Warfare Is Updated! (4/30/2008 12:26:41 AM)

quote:


Nobody gets to speak for 'the players' or 'the people who bought the game, enjoy playing it, give suggestions to the developers team and point out problems'. You can speak for yourself, or you can speak for a specific, defined and named group of people that has authorized you to speak for them, but you do not speak for 'the players'.


That's a given. I, of course, do not speak for *any* player, but myself. That statement was reduced from this:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vincenzo Beretta

"Yes: for example, I can point out of this "you (blah blah) while I/us (blah blah)" is a way to arbitrarily divide the community, again, in factions of "us vs. you". Actually, *WE* are doing our best to fix the game, heal the community, produce free third party add-ons (never forget about this: everybody does it for pleasure and for sharing such pleasure (since nobody gains anything, except slander and disparaging), work around the bugs, provide the opportunity for enjoyable MP experiences, and space to host DBs and scenarios (HarPlonk is open to anyone asking for it - for free)."


The "We" only means the activities of the rest of the Harpoon community. It is not an attempt to represent feelings or opinions of other Harpoon players, but a report of actual contributions from them.

BTW, and generally speaking, one only just needs to check any neighbouring forum - exp. those of successful games (TOAW, WitP, the Campaign Series...) to see how the respective communities managed to do stellar work for their favourite wargames via a common effort, all the while while mantaining the (fundamental) identity of the contributors, and the general, respect for them as individuals; all of this instead of wasting energy grasping at straws, beginning "lectures", and then stalling when the steam runs out (and accusations are debunked) and whining about whatever is done by those labeled "they", in the most pejorative sense of the word. What a sad sense of waste I feel some of the times I come here...

I hope to have answered to your issues - which would be much more than what I got from mine in this thread [:)]



Vincenzo_Beretta -> RE: Harpoon 3 – Advanced Naval Warfare Is Updated! (4/30/2008 1:15:07 AM)

double post



BurntFingers -> RE: Harpoon 3 – Advanced Naval Warfare Is Updated! (4/30/2008 12:00:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Vincenzo Beretta

quote:

ORIGINAL: BurntFingers

Signor Beretta, again you have posted an incomplete answer. I refer you to my question, and until it is answered I will not reply to your comments;-



Which is the only thing you seem to be able to do consistently. [8|]

quote:


Uhuh. NAME THEM PLEASE. Let's have Herman's little helpers outed. You've already put yourself in that catergory, and indicated "WE" so you are not the only one. Who? Exactly.


Which part of "People who find and/or confirm bugs are openly credited ( http://tinyurl.com/34fogy ) - as someone possessing the facts of the matter would already have known."

and

"We" as in "we, the players - we who bought the game, enjoy playing it, give suggestions to the developers team and point out problems. I'm sorry to hear that for you is "nonsense".

Did you missed?



"Did you missed" is bad English. "Did you miss" is correct.

You are not being logical at all. Let me explain WHY it is important for you to answer this question;

1) You complained that nobody was thanking any of the contributors to this list.

quote:


More to the point, it was an interesting lecture about "ethics" that, most unfortunatly, has been posted on a forum where they are finally fixing ANW using Herman's buglist - without even a "thank you". Not the best of places.


You then edit that post when I ask for a list of people to thank. Why are you hiding people you want credited?

I give you fair warning... editing a post is not like scrubbing out graffiti on a wall. Not on a commercial site like this one. It may be fine for your OWN site (your rules) but you cannot do that here and expect to get any sort of credibility.

Now... either you drop all demands for any sort of recognition for this bug list. Or you put out a complete list of names of contributors.

I know you don't speak English as your first language. But have I made myself plain?

Dialectic reason goes along the line of "question; answer; question; answer" etc.

You have no credibility whatsoever if you keep chopping and changing your demands. You are instead like a simple child, constantly whining for attention.

Either put up or I'll shut you up. I notice Tait hasn't come back with any witty banter.

Maybe he's got more intelligence than you.

List of names (the reply you posted is the ONLY name given on this "List by the Almighty Herman credited to the contributers credited to Herman" loop.

Lose all credibility for logical argument.

Choose. And quickly - my patience grows short.



Vincenzo_Beretta -> RE: Harpoon 3 – Advanced Naval Warfare Is Updated! (4/30/2008 12:34:08 PM)

quote:


"Did you missed" is bad English. "Did you miss" is correct.


Thanks: It would seem that you are able to find and fix at least *some* bugs [:D]

quote:


1) You complained that nobody was thanking any of the contributors to this list.


Actually no, I just noticed how a list *maintained* by a specific person is being used without even a thank you but, please, go on.

quote:


You then edit that post when I ask for a list of people to thank. Why are you hiding people you want credited?


Which part of

"People who find and/or confirm bugs are openly credited ( http://tinyurl.com/34fogy ) - as someone possessing the facts of the matter would already have known."

...did you miss?

(See? Fixing bugs actually works when you spend time doing it [:D] If only you could find bugs in ANW as easily as you found them in my Italian English, maybe there wouldn't be a list of 176 problems).

[Snip on some confusional episode]

quote:


Dialectic reason goes along the line of "question; answer; question; answer" etc.


Fine: I'm waiting for answers too, from a guy who does only seem able to twist, dance, fumble and weasel away - so I can sympathize.

quote:


You have no credibility whatsoever


This comes from the guy who wrote:

quote:


"OK. Here are what are in my belief the official signature rules; they may not be, there's no mention of sig rules within the 3.9 documentation."


and

quote:

Herman hasn't bothered. There are literally hundreds of examples in PDB where the signatures don't match the dimensions. Sometimes the above are used; sometimes, Herman appears to have pulled a value at random out of a hat.

Here are 10 examples of the hundreds on offer;-


http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1789481

Of course, you do understand that you have PROVEN that the PlayersDB is a unique and original work, don't you? And you provided "Hundreds of examples" of how it is different from each and every database. It doesn't matter how the PlayersDB got its values. The important thing that you've just confirmed is that they are all from Herman's own mind, different formulae, or "at random out of a hat". Thanks for de-bunking your own allegations.

This has actually passed the line of bizarre and entered the realm of truly macabre. You state that "there's no mention of sig rules within the 3.9 documentation" and then go right ahead to argue that the PlayersDB must have somehow contravened them. Rules cannot be broken when they don't exist in the first place. I guess that it shouldn't be surprising that you "know" that Herman was banned for something that you never saw, heard, or felt, either.

Perhaps this says it all: "Here are what are in my belief the official signature rules". It certainly appears as though your only problem with the PlayersDB is that it refuses to follow your personal perception of reality and that "You" somehow embody the "official rules" or speak for the developers and the rest of the community on what is true and proper. It does not matter how many times you try to deny speaking for the developers because your own words damn you

This is the problem you encounter when you have others ghost-write your arguments for you. They often drop the ball when it comes to facts and logic - but then the only one left out in the cold is you, as I had already foretold.

quote:


You are instead like a simple child, constantly whining for attention.


A sense of realization, shock and sadness fails to grip me. Does this piece of intelligence come from the same source that told you how "I do no creative work"?

quote:


I notice Tait hasn't come back with any witty banter.


Shhhh! Let sleeping dogs lie! [:)]

[Snip on another confusional episode dotted by "requests"]

quote:


Choose. And quickly - my patience grows short.


Since there is a shortage, I quickly choose to stock patience in some warehouses: surely prices will go up :o)

Cheers!

V.



Vincenzo_Beretta -> RE: Harpoon 3 – Advanced Naval Warfare Is Updated! (4/30/2008 2:04:30 PM)

Double post (again [8|])



BurntFingers -> RE: Harpoon 3 – Advanced Naval Warfare Is Updated! (4/30/2008 2:16:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vincenzo Beretta

quote:



quote:


I notice Tait hasn't come back with any witty banter.


Shhhh! Let sleeping dogs lie! [:)]



Why did you call make a clearly connected reference to Taitennek as a sleeping dog and why did you call him a liar?

Both are clearly defamatory statements and constitute a clear breach of Matrix Games rules.




Stalintc -> RE: Harpoon 3 – Advanced Naval Warfare Is Updated! (4/30/2008 2:31:25 PM)

I think that you will find "let sleeping dogs lie" is roughly translated "leave him\it alone"

So in essence no-one is being called a dog or a liar.

Cheers



Erik Rutins -> RE: Harpoon 3 – Advanced Naval Warfare Is Updated! (4/30/2008 4:43:56 PM)

Ok, I see we're back to the "happy fun" part of Harpoon-land since I last checked in. Let me make a few things clear to hopefully direct this conversation in a constructive direction.

First, we (Matrix and AGSI) are in the midst of a major good faith effort to change some of our past mistakes relating to Harpoon. We've changed how the forum is moderated and we've embarked on a new round of quality control and bug-fixing that is aimed at investigating and resolving all reported issues, including those on Herman's list. That's our focus.

Second, after jumping back into things, I've been reviewing some of the past history. Thanks to Vincenzo (among many others) who contributed their opinions on how things have gone in the past and what should be fixed. I also had a long conversation with Herman to discuss his issues and past history on this forum. I'm keeping an open mind on things and listening and helping AGSI to improve our work output and community relations. As part of this review, I'm also going through the PDB and comparing it to other databases to form my own educated opinion on the various plagiarism charges, since it seems that some kind of resolution to this is required for some parts of the community to move on.

While progress may seem somewhat glacial from the outside, I can say that it's been rapid internally and I have high hopes for the 3.9.2 release (coming very soon) and future releases as far as making sure they are in better shape than 3.9.0 was. There is a real team effort underway and the focus is simply on making Harpoon better. I know we've made plenty of mistakes in the past and I'm sure we will make some in the future, but hopefully _far_ fewer. Keep in mind we're all human and that applies from what I've seen across the community as well. If you put anyone's work on a game this complex under a microscope, some issues will be found. As long as we fix a lot more than we create, we're heading in the right direction.

I realize the proof is in the pudding, so please give us a bit more time on these various angles and then re-evaluate things based on our results. These arguments in the interim, many of which are focused on old issues or ways of doing things that have since changed, are not productive or helpful. If you disagree on the merits of a particular database, just agree to disagree - there are other alternatives.

Also, I do agree that while Herman is still banned from this foum, it's much more fair to address any complaints regardng his work to him in a place where he can respond.

In the meantime, let's knock off the personal attacks, please shake hands and agree to deal with each other as gentlemen. You can all be a very positive force for Harpoon's future by helping review the new releases as we put them out and giving us your feedback on how we're doing in terms of responsiveness and community relations.

Regards,

- Erik



Vincenzo_Beretta -> RE: Harpoon 3 – Advanced Naval Warfare Is Updated! (4/30/2008 5:19:48 PM)

Thank very much, Erik. And, as usual, be assured that you will have all my collaboration in making the Harpoon line the best he can be [:)]

Vince



FransKoenz -> RE: Harpoon 3 – Advanced Naval Warfare Is Updated! (4/30/2008 7:20:24 PM)

Shhhh! Let sleeping dogs lie! [:)]

Why did you call make a clearly connected reference to Taitennek as a sleeping dog and why did you call him a liar?

Both are clearly defamatory statements and constitute a clear breach of Matrix Games rules.



I beg your pardon???????????[:@]

First you are whining that I put something on this forum in my own language, now you are taking advantage of the fact that English is not our native language and turned that into a rotten alligation against Vincenzo over my back.
I know Vince for manny years now and look at a decent and integer person. I know what he meant with that.

And you, mister McDonald, should start realizing that your contribution is getting far beyond the limits of acceptance!
Herman was banned for a week for much less.

You should be ashame of yourself!



kipallen -> RE: Harpoon 3 – Advanced Naval Warfare Is Updated! (4/30/2008 7:55:09 PM)

Gentlemen, is there any chance we can get past this pissing contest and get back to discussing Harpoon? It's getting old.



Shemar -> RE: Harpoon 3 – Advanced Naval Warfare Is Updated! (4/30/2008 8:06:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kip

Gentlemen, is there any chance we can get past this pissing contest and get back to discussing Harpoon? It's getting old.


Signed.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Harpoon 3 – Advanced Naval Warfare Is Updated! (4/30/2008 8:08:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Taitennek
First you are whining that I put something on this forum in my own language, now you are taking advantage of the fact that English is not our native language and turned that into a rotten alligation against Vincenzo over my back.


Please refer to my post above, let's leave all that in the past and move on to continue our constructive work to improve Harpoon.



Dagooz -> RE: Harpoon 3 – Advanced Naval Warfare Is Updated! (5/1/2008 1:51:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kip

Gentlemen, is there any chance we can get past this pissing contest and get back to discussing Harpoon? It's getting old.



It got old years ago...



BurntFingers -> RE: Harpoon 3 – Advanced Naval Warfare Is Updated! (5/3/2008 1:19:09 PM)

Fair notice is given;-

Quoting the Matrix rules;-

If you choose to access this Site from outside the United States, you do so on your own initiative and are responsible for compliance with applicable local laws.

I have a legal obligation to deny liability (but a legal acknowledgement of responsibility in receiving the information that;-

1) I stand by my post about Vincenzo Baretta having comitted and act of libel against NOT JUST Tait, but a whole lot of other people as well. Boy, are you in TROUBLE Vinnie.

2) I regard Taittenek as being in breach of his contract with Matrix as having committed both libel against me in Dutch (which I can show I can read) and also an act considered criminal in my home jurisdiction, but probably not in his.

3) I have a legal responsibility in these issues as per the Matrix Rules. Were I to deny these issues, then I would be in material Breach of the Rules with respect to ensuring compliance with the site in respect of the laws of my home territory. ("Local applicable law").

4) I suspend all further activity on this matter EXCEPT to acknowledge responsibility and DENY liability in these and possibly other issues for the public good of Harpoon 3, I reserve the right in the future to take up these issues with Matrix indepth, and if provable, as both are Matrix Rules, both Taittenek and Vincenzo Baretta are to have their access to Matrix denied else I shall deem Matrix to be in breach of contract in their responsibilities to enforcing Matrix Rules on such serious issues.

5) I will be sending an email to Erik Rutin dealing with these matters in due course. I will also enclose some specific view of a unique location to identify my local home territory with respect to my responsibilities in dealing with my contract with Matrix Games, the Matrix Rules. I do not expect instant or unconsiderd judgement of the issues I have raised, and possibly others - but I deny Matrix Games the right to NOT block access to these individuals as the accusations I have just been FORCED to make in order to COMPLY with the Matrix Rules - or else be found in breach of contract within civil law within the jurisdiction of the State of New York.

I am NOT happy about these Matrix Rules Erik. Not happy at all. Not happy about a lot of things. But I will put them aside, send you the details, and let you make your own judgement call in your own time. As the matter of the criminal breach is minor, I suspend it - it clearly supercedes the Matrix Rules, but as Taitenneks home jurisdiction is outside mine, he cannot be prosecuted for it unless he enters my home jurisdiction. Fair notice is given of that fact - criminal charges are not being obstructed if Tait stays within his home territory.



FreekS -> RE: Harpoon 3 – Advanced Naval Warfare Is Updated! (5/3/2008 3:15:02 PM)

ROFL



Erik Rutins -> RE: Harpoon 3 – Advanced Naval Warfare Is Updated! (5/3/2008 5:19:07 PM)

Burntfingers, it's a private forum. The rules are subject to change at our discretion. There's no legal or criminal matter here, just a typical internet flamewar. I understand that no one enjoys being insulted, but let's drop the formalities, put it in the past and move on. Please re-read my post above. I'd like to focus on constructive ideas to help Harpoon improve, not get sidetracked by any arguments.



Vincenzo_Beretta -> RE: Harpoon 3 – Advanced Naval Warfare Is Updated! (5/3/2008 10:04:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FreekS

ROFL


Why was Herman banned again? CROSSPOSTING?? [&:]



FransKoenz -> RE: Harpoon 3 – Advanced Naval Warfare Is Updated! (5/4/2008 12:07:13 AM)

You better watch out Vincenzo,

He is on a sewing-mission. I have packed my stuff and I expect that I am being transferred to Guatanamo Bay within a few days.[:D].....



Vincenzo_Beretta -> RE: Harpoon 3 – Advanced Naval Warfare Is Updated! (5/4/2008 11:25:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Taitennek
You better watch out Vincenzo,

He is on a sewing-mission. I have packed my stuff and I expect that I am being transferred to Guatanamo Bay within a few days.[:D].....


Me too. At least we can say "Hi!" to Herman. [:D]



erichswafford -> RE: Harpoon 3 – Advanced Naval Warfare Is Updated! (2/20/2009 9:27:59 AM)

Um, as a new user I am kinda shocked by all this.  We are such small band of intelligent people who revel in the complexity and verisimilitude of this sort of simulator.  We are very alone right now.  99.9999% of the idiot gamers out there couldn't be bothered to even look at something like ANW.  All they want is more brainless FPS's and crap.

The same problem exists in the flight sim community (where I come from).  We need to band together if we're to survive at all.  Think about that when you get angry at one another.  All of us have so much in common and are so different than other gamers - well, it's just amazing that it gets completely forgotten.

Bottom line:  the person you *think* you're angry with is actually someone you'd probably really enjoy meeting in person.  Simply because we all share a fascination with this wonderfully arcane subject matter - Modern Naval Warfare.



erichswafford -> RE: Harpoon 3 – Advanced Naval Warfare Is Updated! (2/21/2009 6:25:58 PM)

Good to hear.  Yeah, I didn't notice that!



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