food for thought: china set up for Day of Infamy (Full Version)

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wfzimmerman -> food for thought: china set up for Day of Infamy (4/9/2008 8:50:42 PM)

here is a MWIF beta screen shot showing a set up for Nationalist China in Day of Infamy (1941 two-map).

the HQ is in the mountain hex northwest of Canton defended by the 2-3 AA. my goal was to force the Japanese to defend Canton and Amoy.

thoughts?





[image]local://upfiles/10463/415BC504EEB34753ABD2F6DED9C281BE.jpg[/image]



composer99 -> RE: food for thought: china set up for Day of Infamy (4/9/2008 10:16:15 PM)

Are us non-beta testing types allowed to see this? [:)]



Jimm -> RE: food for thought: china set up for Day of Infamy (4/9/2008 10:27:57 PM)

As far as I understand we are allowed to show a limited number of screenshots to the forum for comment & discussion. What is shown here doesn't give away any game secrets but I think proposes a good talking point for adopting strategy to Euro-scale China map.




sajbalk -> RE: food for thought: china set up for Day of Infamy (4/9/2008 10:47:06 PM)

Can you do the picture so that we can enlarge it? Also, will occupying Macau or E. Timor necessitate a Japanese DOW as it would in the board game?




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: food for thought: china set up for Day of Infamy (4/9/2008 10:56:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Are us non-beta testing types allowed to see this? [:)]

Yes.
------
I am planning on letting the Warlords set up anywhere within their restricted movement locations (6 hexes of their city). This isn't quite in accordance with RAW but I do not see why the Warlords have to start in their home cities when the war had been going on for a while by 1939.

Does this cause anyone angst?



Froonp -> RE: food for thought: china set up for Day of Infamy (4/9/2008 11:15:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Are us non-beta testing types allowed to see this? [:)]

Yes.
------
I am planning on letting the Warlords set up anywhere within their restricted movement locations (6 hexes of their city). This isn't quite in accordance with RAW but I do not see why the Warlords have to start in their home cities when the war had been going on for a while by 1939.

Does this cause anyone angst?

That's fine by me.
I think that will be fine for all WiF FE players, and I also think that this may become the new standard in the boardgame too (not 6 hexes though, the RAW 2 hexes).



Froonp -> RE: food for thought: china set up for Day of Infamy (4/9/2008 11:17:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sajbalk
Also, will occupying Macau or E. Timor necessitate a Japanese DOW as it would in the board game?

Yes, a Japanese DoW on Portugal.
Or simply wait for the CW DoW on Portugal to align it to Japan and go there in peace.
As in the boardgame.



brian brian -> RE: food for thought: china set up for Day of Infamy (4/10/2008 5:15:29 AM)

Day of Infamy = The Nov/Dec 41 starting turn scenario? I think so.

Does Japan have any Mech at all? (I would think not?) Why not use the excellent river hex adjacent to Canton?

I'm not sure as Japan I would worry about losing Amoy or Pakhoi. I would rather perhaps hope the Chinese step on to the coast where all the WWI BBs can shoot at them. But then the Japanese Marines will probably be busy elsewhere, at least until the summer of 1942 and then refer back to the point about shore bombardment.



composer99 -> RE: food for thought: china set up for Day of Infamy (4/10/2008 6:08:52 PM)

Japan, as far as I know, does not start any scenario with Mech/Arm forces. They have to build them.

Given the Japanese are about to get busy attacking and defending their overseas perimeter, this set up seems fine for the Nationalists. I would maybe not spread them out so much and start a bit further back so that they are in a better defensive position in case the Japanese find they have the leisure time and units to take a few more whacks at China in 1942.



Mitchellvitch -> RE: food for thought: china set up for Day of Infamy (4/10/2008 8:14:25 PM)

Lord, playing Asia on Euro scale is going to be strange - but wonderful. Lovely to see the screen shot.



wfzimmerman -> RE: food for thought: china set up for Day of Infamy (4/10/2008 8:50:18 PM)

I am working on some better closeup shots, like this, which is at zoom level 5 -- it goes from 1 (global) to 8 (extreme closeup).

[image]local://upfiles/10463/7DA60C05928946A59B006C40CD7C1E48.jpg[/image]



wfzimmerman -> RE: food for thought: china set up for Day of Infamy (4/10/2008 9:01:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman

I am working on some better closeup shots, like this, which is at zoom level 5 -- it goes from 1 (global) to 8 (extreme closeup).

[image]local://upfiles/10463/7DA60C05928946A59B006C40CD7C1E48.jpg[/image]



Note the hex control markers. there is a really annoying salient extending east past Kiangsi. I was tempted to simply defend in the mountains along the NE line where the 5-3 and 4-2 are, but I didn't want to deploy too far back -- i wanted to at least threaten something of value to the Japanese.

The "2" over the 5(1)(2) near Kwangtung indicates there are two units there (the bottom is an AA unit -- I suppose it would be more useful with the 5-3).



jcprom -> RE: food for thought: china set up for Day of Infamy (4/11/2008 12:09:41 AM)

Beautiful map. The whole thing looks rather more realistic than WiFFE.

But, unless I missed a key rule, both sides will find it hard to mount even a single attack per season. And the location of this attack will be fairly predictable.

Of course, very high risk attacks (for both sides) are not prohibited...



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: food for thought: china set up for Day of Infamy (4/11/2008 12:14:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jcprom

Beautiful map. The whole thing looks rather more realistic than WiFFE.

But, unless I missed a key rule, both sides will find it hard to mount even a single attack per season. And the location of this attack will be fairly predictable.

Of course, very high risk attacks (for both sides) are not prohibited...

Thanks.

I think Fred has in mind threatening to have the Chinese just take a stroll over Japanese controlled hexes. Then they would head for the hills - or at least that is what I would have them do.



wfzimmerman -> RE: food for thought: china set up for Day of Infamy (4/11/2008 2:03:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: jcprom

Beautiful map. The whole thing looks rather more realistic than WiFFE.

But, unless I missed a key rule, both sides will find it hard to mount even a single attack per season. And the location of this attack will be fairly predictable.

Of course, very high risk attacks (for both sides) are not prohibited...

Thanks.

I think Fred has in mind threatening to have the Chinese just take a stroll over Japanese controlled hexes. Then they would head for the hills - or at least that is what I would have them do.


Right. I was just asking myself, what can I do that will annoy the Japanese player and force him to deploy something where he doesn't want to.



Mitchellvitch -> RE: food for thought: china set up for Day of Infamy (4/11/2008 4:49:01 PM)

Won't the Japanese attack from the north towards the resource hex north of Hengyang? That would seem to be an achievable objective even for this scenario. They might well be willing to let Swatow and Amoy go if they can take it.



wfzimmerman -> RE: food for thought: china set up for Day of Infamy (4/11/2008 5:04:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mitchellvitch

Won't the Japanese attack from the north towards the resource hex north of Hengyang? That would seem to be an achievable objective even for this scenario. They might well be willing to let Swatow and Amoy go if they can take it.

There is an (admittedly thin) cordon in that area not visible on the screenshot. I will upload another one. The area around Hengyang and Changsi gives me fits when I do this setup.

[image]local://upfiles/10463/FC66D7A672414BC5A32AFFD99886044E.jpg[/image]



lomyrin -> RE: food for thought: china set up for Day of Infamy (4/11/2008 6:04:48 PM)

In CWiF, ChangSha just north of the resource is a key rail junction city and essential for Japanese control. Although the MWiF map is a little different I would expect the importance of ChangSha to remain high and of course so will the resource hex be.

Lars



wfzimmerman -> RE: food for thought: china set up for Day of Infamy (4/11/2008 6:42:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

In CWiF, ChangSha just north of the resource is a key rail junction city and essential for Japanese control. Although the MWiF map is a little different I would expect the importance of ChangSha to remain high and of course so will the resource hex be.

Lars


Lars, what would you do about the salient that juts towards Chekiang in Day of Infamy?



[image]local://upfiles/10463/C23EB851E37B4A04AC9311F38B33AD35.jpg[/image]



Mitchellvitch -> RE: food for thought: china set up for Day of Infamy (4/11/2008 7:04:39 PM)

I'm puzzled - what is Chengkiang? A region name? Is the salient you refer to us the Chinese territory that extends to the coast? Sorry to be dense. Looks like a tempting spot to interfere with Japanese rail supply, but probably best left empty, I would guess

Lars' point about the ChangSha junction is spot on. But how you hold all this with such a thin line of troops is, for the moment, past me.




wfzimmerman -> RE: food for thought: china set up for Day of Infamy (4/11/2008 7:13:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mitchellvitch

I'm puzzled - what is Chengkiang? A region name? Is the salient you refer to us the Chinese territory that extends to the coast? Sorry to be dense. Looks like a tempting spot to interfere with Japanese rail supply, but probably best left empty, I would guess

Lars' point about the ChangSha junction is spot on. But how you hold all this with such a thin line of troops is, for the moment, past me.




well, you don't have enough units to cover the whole front. let me do some counting ... at MWIF scale, if the Nationalists and Communists extend a minimum length line from Nanning up past Yenan, it is 32 hexes long ... there are 14 non-warlord Nationalist and 4 non-warlord Chinese Communist land units. two of the warlords (lanchow and Kunming) can be deployed somewhere useful that is within six hexes of their home city. so that leaves 12 hexes that must be empty. you could break down a couple of corps to cover a couple more hexes. I guess the question is, where should the empty hexes be?




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: food for thought: china set up for Day of Infamy (4/11/2008 7:48:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mitchellvitch

I'm puzzled - what is Chengkiang? A region name? Is the salient you refer to us the Chinese territory that extends to the coast? Sorry to be dense. Looks like a tempting spot to interfere with Japanese rail supply, but probably best left empty, I would guess

Lars' point about the ChangSha junction is spot on. But how you hold all this with such a thin line of troops is, for the moment, past me.



Chengkiang is a Chinese provence/state - as indicated by font color and size. Patrice thought about putting borders for them but the final decision was that since they didn't affect game play, we wouldn't. The names are just for information/reference.



lomyrin -> RE: food for thought: china set up for Day of Infamy (4/11/2008 8:12:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman

quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

In CWiF, ChangSha just north of the resource is a key rail junction city and essential for Japanese control. Although the MWiF map is a little different I would expect the importance of ChangSha to remain high and of course so will the resource hex be.

Lars


Lars, what would you do about the salient that juts towards Chekiang in Day of Infamy?



[image]local://upfiles/10463/C23EB851E37B4A04AC9311F38B33AD35.jpg[/image]


Having played almost entirely GLobal War I am not completely familiar with the Japanese units available in Day of Infamy. I am fairly certain though that there are quite a few Japanese units available to set up in China. A unit in Nanchang and with help of other units and perhaps a bomber advancing to knock out the Mil East of Changsha will make the Chinese foolhardy to advance into that northeast salient, they would have supply problems and no cities in the area.

Lars



Mitchellvitch -> RE: food for thought: china set up for Day of Infamy (4/11/2008 9:04:03 PM)

quote:

Chengkiang is a Chinese provence/state - as indicated by font color and size. Patrice thought about putting borders for them but the final decision was that since they didn't affect game play, we wouldn't. The names are just for information/reference.


A good decision I think, and a very nice touch.

quote:

so that leaves 12 hexes that must be empty. you could break down a couple of corps to cover a couple more hexes. I guess the question is, where should the empty hexes be?


Presumably you will want to double stack in a few places, which leaves even more gaps. Not to mention reserve. Very interesting indeed. Looking forward to hearing how your setup works out!



brian brian -> RE: food for thought: china set up for Day of Infamy (4/12/2008 8:16:25 AM)

one successful ground strike by Artillery or planes and the Chunking MIL is toast and Chang-Sha falls....

I'd take the Nationalist CAV from the north, where it is accomplishing little aside from threatening an end-around (maybe worthwhile too actually), turn it into divisions and use those for fun with the rivers and mountains in Chekiang. So what if they are out of supply or the Japanese kill them...China can make more.

As Japan, I'd never let a salient like that develop in the long game.

I don't see much need to maintain a 'line' in China, at least for the Chinese. The Japanese can only advance along rail lines. The units east of Ankang are accomplishing little. If you are worried about this area, create another division and leave it there to keep the Japanese from running in their own cheap division. If they do, walk behind it (no ZoC for divs) and cut off it's long-term supply (I suggest the isolated re-org option for this new map). If you really want to worry the Japanese, put 2 units in Chengchow, with a flank protector to the west. By the time Japan could crack that (if they even tried, and not before the summer of 42), you would have new units appearing in Tungkwan anyway.

The Chinese though, have handy little supply/reinforcement bases all over the place. Japan needs a line, definitely. In laager mode, probably. All the Chinese need to do is ooze into the Japanese line simultaneously with some USN moves in to the perimeter and Japan can't deal with it.



jcprom -> RE: food for thought: china set up for Day of Infamy (4/13/2008 5:37:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: jcprom

Beautiful map. The whole thing looks rather more realistic than WiFFE.

But, unless I missed a key rule, both sides will find it hard to mount even a single attack per season. And the location of this attack will be fairly predictable.

Of course, very high risk attacks (for both sides) are not prohibited...

Thanks.

I think Fred has in mind threatening to have the Chinese just take a stroll over Japanese controlled hexes. Then they would head for the hills - or at least that is what I would have them do.


Right. I was just asking myself, what can I do that will annoy the Japanese player and force him to deploy something where he doesn't want to.


Then, I wonder what a typical Chinese set up would look like, and the Japanese response (I'm not alone apparently [;)]).



wosung -> RE: food for thought: china set up for Day of Infamy (6/11/2008 12:08:46 AM)

For contributing to the ongoing discussion

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1439822&mpage=4�



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