any way at all to edit saved games??? (Full Version)

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UdiHrant -> any way at all to edit saved games??? (4/10/2008 7:28:46 PM)

Love this game but also love Silent Hunter 4 and Pacific Fighters and so I ocasionally recreate an encounter from PW in 3d. Would love to feed the results BACK into PW if there was a way.

Imagine creeping up on the Yamato in Silent Hunter knowing it would effect your pacWar campaign if you could succeed?




marky -> RE: any way at all to edit saved games??? (4/10/2008 7:49:50 PM)

better bring lots of fish [:D]

she can be found loitering NW of Rabul with some carriers in mid 42 or 43 or so

i put 4 fish into her...

she just sailed right on past





Terminus -> RE: any way at all to edit saved games??? (4/10/2008 8:31:04 PM)

No.



wdolson -> RE: any way at all to edit saved games??? (4/11/2008 12:17:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UdiHrant

Love this game but also love Silent Hunter 4 and Pacific Fighters and so I ocasionally recreate an encounter from PW in 3d. Would love to feed the results BACK into PW if there was a way.

Imagine creeping up on the Yamato in Silent Hunter knowing it would effect your pacWar campaign if you could succeed?


I have heard of ideas like this being kicked around, but from a programming point of view, it would be very difficult to do. Especially since Silent Hunter and Pacific Fighters are games written by different companies.

Bill



Stele -> RE: any way at all to edit saved games??? (4/11/2008 9:54:59 AM)

I kinda get what you're saying. I wouldn't mind using WitP as a grand scale game and changing certain battle results and losses in the game from recreated battles from SH4 or IL2.



rtrapasso -> RE: any way at all to edit saved games??? (4/11/2008 2:16:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: _Stele

I kinda get what you're saying. I wouldn't mind using WitP as a grand scale game and changing certain battle results and losses in the game from recreated battles from SH4 or IL2.

Aye - therein lies the rub... people changing battle results... somehow their opponents seem to not like this idea...

it would seem to be an OK idea for AI games, but this would give players a "leg up" with decoding PBEM games.



UdiHrant -> RE: any way at all to edit saved games??? (4/11/2008 5:06:03 PM)

_Stele - you get the idea. I would never expect the games to automatically update each other and it would probably not be cool for a human to human matchup.

However - I still wish there was an editor so that I could use a WitP combat report to build a SH4 or IL2 single mission, play out that mission and then ALTER the saved game to recreate the results.



greg_slith -> RE: any way at all to edit saved games??? (4/11/2008 8:43:11 PM)

Well, if you have enough saves you might be able to. Say Witp has the scenerio you mention. A US sub sights a high value target. Witp will play it out and you end the turn. Now you go to SHIV and play it out. If the results are different, ie you sunk the Yamato instead of just shooting some fish and getting depth charged. Now go back too the origional save, find Yamato and scuttle her. The replay the turn. Not very elegent to be sure.[8|]



UdiHrant -> RE: any way at all to edit saved games??? (4/11/2008 9:21:14 PM)

ecgcx - thanks - you got the idea - inelegant as it may be - but is scuttling the only option? what about just adding damage? it has always seemed odd to me that with all of the scenareo mods and analysys tools around there is no way to simply edit a game in progress.



wworld7 -> RE: any way at all to edit saved games??? (4/11/2008 10:04:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: UdiHrant

ecgcx - thanks - you got the idea - inelegant as it may be - but is scuttling the only option? what about just adding damage? it has always seemed odd to me that with all of the scenareo mods and analysys tools around there is no way to simply edit a game in progress.


The reason is simple, it is called security, and this has been explained numerous times in the past.



DD696 -> RE: any way at all to edit saved games??? (4/11/2008 10:38:56 PM)

Security, at the expense of the many, to only benefit the few, at the cost of unfixable games when data becomes corrupted due to coding errors or when the data was wrong to begin with.



Gem35 -> RE: any way at all to edit saved games??? (4/12/2008 12:01:55 AM)

Reading this thread makes my brain hurt.[:(]



UdiHrant -> RE: any way at all to edit saved games??? (4/12/2008 12:11:16 AM)

flipper - why so arrogant? security for pbem games could easilly be maintained by using an optional password that one could easilly know when somone has peeked into the saved game file or stop them from peeking in the first place. That way the rest of us could play with the files if we wanted to.



wworld7 -> RE: any way at all to edit saved games??? (4/12/2008 12:24:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: UdiHrant

flipper - why so arrogant? security for pbem games could easilly be maintained by using an optional password that one could easilly know when somone has peeked into the saved game file or stop them from peeking in the first place. That way the rest of us could play with the files if we wanted to.


Arrogant? Sorry you feel that way, I was just trying to be direct.

As I said this issue has been discussed before, but if you want to continue re-hashing something that IMHO cannot change in AE that is your choice.

Have a good day.



wdolson -> RE: any way at all to edit saved games??? (4/12/2008 1:38:33 AM)

What it boils down to is that Matrix will not allow there to be a saved game editor.  PBEM save files can be made safe quite a few ways.  However, Matrix still doesn't like the idea.  If you want a saved game editor, write Matrx's management and politely make your case.

For AI games, an editor is not a security issue.  Your opponent doesn't care if you cheat.

For PBEM games, an editor is a serious concern.  However, there are many things that can be done, especially if the game itself could be modified to check for edited saved game files.  This would also be more feasible with AE than the original game.  Both the original game and AE have some saved game security, but AE has more robust security.

For PBEM, there could be an interlock mechanism that doesn't allow anybody to edit a saved game without permission from both players.  The players could enter their PBEM password into a utility that would check a saved game and generate a numeric key that is unique to that password and one particular saved game file.  If a player trusts his opponent, he could give that key to his opponent to fix the file.  Or both players could send the saved game and their key to a neutral 3rd party who could make the fixes.  The key could also have a time limit too, which would prevent the editing player from mining the file for intel later.

If the editor left it's calling card when it worked on a saved game file, the game could pick that up on loading and pop up a warning message.   This would be an extra level of security.

This technique could also be used to enable some updates to the game data for in progress games. 

The decision for a saved game editor is Matrix's and Matrix's alone.  I have not spoken to anybody directly in Matrix management, but I've been told it's been a non-negotiable issue from the start.  As you can see on the forum, there is also some very adament opposition to the idea.

At the moment, I'm too busy to even do much more than give it a bit of thought.  And I'm only doing that to avoid doing taxes.

Bill



n01487477 -> RE: any way at all to edit saved games??? (4/12/2008 8:30:20 AM)

Ok, I feel like I should weigh in here a little...

With power comes great responsibility ... for those few who know about the data contained in the save file.

A game editor would ruin this game, I cannot see of any existing way that could be implemented without using something like the interlocking mechanism described above...

But having said that, utilities that read the save file like Woo's and WitpTracker(to be release shortly) are only possible because the savefile is not using 128 bit encryption, iris/fingerprint scanning & biometric analysis:)

I'm a believer of the notion that game longevity and usage is related to ongoing development and support, but NOT at the expense of game enjoyment / PBEM security.

AE is supposed to provide better encryption of the save file, I support this, but would also (as a WitpTracker developer), like to suggest that utility developers be thought of when this is finally realised. What I am saying, is that I applaud more security, but not at the expense of shutting down all future modifications and utility development. There needs to be a medium point, or balance between providing both.

A PBEM editor is a bad idea. period ...

A human Vs AI editor is plausible, and possible now, but I would suggest not to go down this road. The Japanese would have loved to have had a Midway do-over / gimme, but life isn't like that, deal with it. It sounds great to open up the game and allow editing but in reality, this really is impractical. And where is the enjoyment, except in replicating results from other software ???

I speak from a position of power and responsibility, but not one of arrogance, rather of humility ...




wdolson -> RE: any way at all to edit saved games??? (4/12/2008 12:45:18 PM)


There are times when editing a saved game file makes sense. Many players have become quite upset when they have been playing for a long time and something happens that becomes a game killer.

It would also be useful to be able to update the database for a game in progress to fix a bug that was found. Not being able to make changes to the game executable because they would require a database change does limit the bug fixes sometimes.

If you're going to spend a year or more playing a game, having something there that allows you to fix bugs for games in progress is something that would save a lot of frustration. The temptation to do a mulligan after a bad battle is already there, just go back to an early save and replay the day. For people who play the AI, whether they want to cheat in a game in progress or not should be between them and their conscience. Some will, some won't. It doesn't make any difference in the grand scheme of things. Nobody got hurt unless you want to anthropormorphize your computer and give it feelings that can be hurt.

With an interlock on the editor, a PBEM game can't be edited without both players approval, which will likely limit it to situations where something is truly screwed up.

If the chances of someone getting hurt are very low, I don't see what the problem is. However, I have learned from experience in other areas that not everybody takes that perspective.

Bill



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