Want to Buy It but.... (Full Version)

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Sal -> Want to Buy It but.... (4/11/2008 5:19:41 AM)

Hi all,
I been reading up on FOF for some time now...I love the Civil War and gaming and gaming the Civil War...Since you all have already bought it could some of you give me a thumbs up or down on this game...It must be really good I would hope for the price...
And if I order the Hard Copy does it come with a Hard Copy Manual..???
Thanks
Sal



harley -> RE: Want to Buy It but.... (4/11/2008 5:30:57 AM)

I took advantage of a christmas special where the price was discounted. I've not played ACW games before, and rarely played hex-based stuff, but I found this to be an excellent game to play.

I was playing on the highest level, and found it quite a challenge to play successfully.

I'm not playing at present as I have RL commitments, but once I have the time, It will be #1 or #2 on the list to get back to...




jkBluesman -> RE: Want to Buy It but.... (4/11/2008 10:12:25 AM)

It does come with a printed manual if you order a hard copy.
The greatest thing about the game is that you can adjust the set of rules on your own. You decide how complex it gets though once you play with advanced rules you will stick to it.



Krec -> RE: Want to Buy It but.... (4/11/2008 10:34:38 AM)

The game is very well done. Alot of time and effort went into putting this game together. Aside from fighting the tactical battles i really enjoy reading the bios of the generals and the govenors. The extra touches are all over this game.  You will not be dissappointed in buying FOF. There is a litttle effort in learning the mech.  but you will be rewarded with a truely rich gaming experience.



Spitfire50 -> RE: Want to Buy It but.... (4/11/2008 6:48:42 PM)

I would definitely recommend it.  I seldom buy games but recently became interested in the Civil War and decided to try to find a game that would give me a basic feel for the challenges faced by both sides and a basic feel for the military strategies and tactics employed.

I took a chance on this game based on some reviews I had read and have not been disappointed.  While I found the manual to be a little convoluted (the same concept discussed 3,4 or 5 times in multiple locations) the rule flexibility and game engine more than makes up for this.



Sarkus -> RE: Want to Buy It but.... (4/11/2008 10:32:03 PM)

I like the game but it does have a pretty steep learning curve.  Having the manual in PDF format does sometimes make grasping concepts a little more difficult and there isn't a good tutorial.  However, your efforts will be rewarded.  Just don't expect to be figuring it all out in a few hours! [:)]



Sal -> RE: Want to Buy It but.... (4/12/2008 5:14:08 AM)

Thanks all for your response...I think I am going to have to get this game since it is killing me not having it....I loved playing Battleground games but this looks a lot more complex and I think once figured out I should be OK...I like actually playing Civil War board games although I dont really have Civil War freeks around me that want to play them since they really dont know any History about the War and it tends to make it boring for them..This at least can be played pbem...Again thanks for all your responses..
Sal



Hard Sarge -> RE: Want to Buy It but.... (4/12/2008 2:40:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: harley

I took advantage of a christmas special where the price was discounted. I've not played ACW games before, and rarely played hex-based stuff, but I found this to be an excellent game to play.

I was playing on the highest level, and found it quite a challenge to play successfully.

I'm not playing at present as I have RL commitments, but once I have the time, It will be #1 or #2 on the list to get back to...




Hey, get to work and leave the games for other people :)

and Yes it is a very good and enjoyable game, but I am bias as my Avatar may point out




Sal -> RE: Want to Buy It but.... (4/12/2008 5:28:44 PM)

OK...had to buy it...I hope it's in the mail now...Cant wait to get into it..Done deal...Wife dont know yet...She will only shake her head and tell me we dont have the money and I will convince her we do...Had to do that after buying a couple of expensive CW era fifes, a hobby I took up playing them and collecting them..She got over it...So even as I am from PA I tend to be a Southern Sympathizer and think I will start out playing the Rebels.
Sal



Gil R. -> RE: Want to Buy It but.... (4/12/2008 10:05:33 PM)

Sal,
Your money issues have got me thinking, and I think I hit on just the solution. Let's say that I sell you some copies of FOF at markdown so that you sell those copies to other people and return some of the money to me while keeping the rest for yourself, and then THOSE people get some copies of FOF to sell and in turn give you some of the money, and you then give me some of the money, and so forth. By my calculations, you and I could become filthy rich through this sort of revolutionary marketing tactic, which provides limitless income potential...



Krec -> RE: Want to Buy It but.... (4/13/2008 3:29:47 AM)

Hmmmm..........can i apply this concept to raising money for my AOP?[&:]

i never have enough money or men to do what i want.[:@]




Joe D. -> RE: Want to Buy It but.... (4/13/2008 1:26:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

... By my calculations, you and I could become filthy rich through this sort of revolutionary marketing tactic, which provides limitless income potential...


I'm afraid Charles Ponzi thought of your tongue-in-cheek scheme first.
From the US Securities and Exchange Commission website:

"Ponzi schemes are a type of illegal pyramid scheme named for Charles Ponzi, who duped thousands of New England residents into investing in a postage stamp speculation scheme back in the 1920s. Ponzi thought he could take advantage of differences between U.S. and foreign currencies used to buy and sell international mail coupons. Ponzi told investors that he could provide a 40% return in just 90 days compared with 5% for bank savings accounts. Ponzi was deluged with funds from investors, taking in $1 million during one three-hour period—and this was 1921! Though a few early investors were paid off to make the scheme look legitimate, an investigation found that Ponzi had only purchased about $30 worth of the international mail coupons.

Decades later, the Ponzi scheme continues to work on the "rob-Peter-to-pay-Paul" principle, as money from new investors is used to pay off earlier investors until the whole scheme collapses."

And yes, I live in New England.




Sal -> RE: Want to Buy It but.... (4/13/2008 6:47:41 PM)

Gil,
You may be on to something there although I think we should have a name for the concept...How about...Hmmm...AMWAY....No...No...Market America...Getting closer....The concept could be called pyramiding, where as the guys at the top, say you and me, make all the money but the rest are left holding the bag...Great Idea...[&o]
Sal



Gil R. -> RE: Want to Buy It but.... (4/13/2008 7:27:32 PM)

A few years ago I caught on C-SPAN a talk by an author of a new book on Ponzi. Seemed like a fascinating story.

Wikipedia has two detailed pages:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme



Joe D. -> RE: Want to Buy It but.... (4/13/2008 8:37:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

A few years ago I caught on C-SPAN a talk by an author of a new book on Ponzi. Seemed like a fascinating story.


I saw Ponzi's mug shot on one of the Wiki links -- I wonder how many years he got?



Sal -> RE: Want to Buy It but.... (4/19/2008 4:58:00 AM)

Ok FOF arrived yesterday....I looked at the manual...Briefly....I am 55 years old...Will I have enough time left to get the hang of this all...A little overwhelming at first as I read here before but I am enjoying getting my but kicked...Once I figure out what I am doing I may have a chance...[&:]
Sal



Joe D. -> RE: Want to Buy It but.... (4/19/2008 2:29:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sal

Ok FOF arrived yesterday....I looked at the manual...Briefly....I am 55 years old...Will I have enough time left to get the hang of this all...


I'm 53, so the answer is "yes"; start at the basic game, then work your way up. Even at the advanced level, you can still toggle off anything too complicated.



Mad Russian -> RE: Want to Buy It but.... (4/20/2008 2:10:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sal

Ok FOF arrived yesterday....I looked at the manual...Briefly....I am 55 years old...Will I have enough time left to get the hang of this all...A little overwhelming at first as I read here before but I am enjoying getting my but kicked...Once I figure out what I am doing I may have a chance...[&:]
Sal


Yup. I bought this game because a wargaming buddy of mine from 30+ years wanted to play THIS ONE.

Okay. Got the manual and it was...well...."different". Not laid out like I was used to. Still finding stuff in it.

We both played vs the computer for a week then started at the highest level settings. I started 5 different games testing out different parts of the game each time. Just learning the game system and not trying to do anything but that.

Now I do an entire turn in under an hour. We do 2 PBEM turns a day usually. That's 2 PBEM turns a day EACH.

This game is easy to play after you get whip the manual.

Good Hunting.

MR



jchastain -> RE: Want to Buy It but.... (4/29/2008 12:10:43 PM)

While the single player game is a lot of fun, I must confess that there is nothing I enjoyed more than allowing Gil to put the stomp on me in our epic PBEM AAR. It is very easy to get caught up in the back-and-forth action and find yourself sitting at the keyboard hoping to get a chance to do "just one more turn". :-)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sal

Ok FOF arrived yesterday....I looked at the manual...Briefly....I am 55 years old...Will I have enough time left to get the hang of this all...A little overwhelming at first as I read here before but I am enjoying getting my but kicked...Once I figure out what I am doing I may have a chance...[&:]
Sal


Yup. I bought this game because a wargaming buddy of mine from 30+ years wanted to play THIS ONE.

Okay. Got the manual and it was...well...."different". Not laid out like I was used to. Still finding stuff in it.

We both played vs the computer for a week then started at the highest level settings. I started 5 different games testing out different parts of the game each time. Just learning the game system and not trying to do anything but that.

Now I do an entire turn in under an hour. We do 2 PBEM turns a day usually. That's 2 PBEM turns a day EACH.

This game is easy to play after you get whip the manual.

Good Hunting.

MR




hgilmer -> RE: Want to Buy It but.... (5/6/2008 2:49:03 PM)

    If you want to be overwhelmed, get War in the Pacific!  I have both, and this game is amazingly easy compared to that.  I'm still trying to figure out WITP.  With FoF, you can jump right in and even if you make mistakes, it is easy to restart.

I still haven't quite figured out detailed battles, but I get a lot of enjoyment out of quick battles.  The advantage is I can play a full game in 2-3 days.



Joe D. -> RE: Want to Buy It but.... (5/6/2008 3:14:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hgilmer

... I still haven't quite figured out detailed battles, but I get a lot of enjoyment out of quick battles.  The advantage is I can play a full game in 2-3 days.


I'm in the same stage, but the Confederate defensive bonus is killing me in QB at the 1st SGT level, so I'm going to have to revisit DB.



GShock -> RE: Want to Buy It but.... (5/7/2008 8:56:13 AM)

FoF is easy to master, now how to achieve victory is not that easy. Take ur time, read the manual and start with the easy rules, i'm sure u'll love it!!!



Joe D. -> RE: Want to Buy It but.... (5/7/2008 2:05:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GShock

FoF is easy to master ...


I disagree; if FoF was that easy to master, there wouldn't be a need for all the optional features/rules, which make the game more "digestible," but not necessarilly easier.



GShock -> RE: Want to Buy It but.... (5/7/2008 6:50:53 PM)

Joe, play 6 months of Ageod's AACW and even Autocad will seem easy :-)

I started with the adv rules in FoF, for a starter...and I'm still loving the game a lot, which says it all, definitely the learning curve is easy but beating the AI is not as easy.

For instance, playing by default the QUICK battle does not let you convey more than 1 container of reinforcements which makes it dramatically harder, especially for CSA. this is not in the manual...you learn with playing it...and what a joy it is to learn. See? The Quick is in basic rules but it takes brains, not rules nor manual to really master the one thing: The enemy (it's always *the* factor) :-)

Actually, i'd love to try a Pbem. Anyone interested?



Joe D. -> RE: Want to Buy It but.... (5/7/2008 7:47:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GShock

Joe, play 6 months of Ageod's AACW and even Autocad will seem easy ...


Actually I have AGEOD's AACW: it can be frustrating forming Armies/Corps -- unless you start a campaign later in the conflict -- otherwise it's not that difficult to learn; it requires more time and patience for the theatre campaigns, but AACW scenarios are relatively quick and easy.




morganbj -> RE: Want to Buy It but.... (5/7/2008 10:33:26 PM)

Buy the game!  Today!!!!  Now!!!!

It's well worth the temporary out-of-pocket cash.  All the other posters have said it all.



GShock -> RE: Want to Buy It but.... (5/8/2008 9:54:01 AM)

Joe, i've played AACW for almost a year now and am learning new things everyday...i think FoF AI is better than AACW's AI and i win easy in AACW vs AI where i probably will never stop learning while i win and lose in FoF where i have nothing else to learn...this is what i was meaning. :-)

I suggest to buy this game to any CW fan of all kinds and of all levels of detail. It's different from others and good. Who knows maybe i find it easy because i am an EiA (and EiANW) and WiF player? :-)

Takes a degree to play WiF really...i don't know if it's humanly possible to build a credible AI at all in World in Flames, i hope the aussies can make it but i really don't think it's possible at all.



Joe D. -> RE: Want to Buy It but.... (5/8/2008 2:51:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GShock

...i think FoF AI is better than AACW's AI and i win easy in AACW vs AI where i probably will never stop learning while i win and lose in FoF where i have nothing else to learn...this is what i was meaning.


Playing as the Union w/FOW, the FoF AI doesn't seem any better than that of AACW; it often attacks superior Union forces and has to quickly about face. However, the 25% defense bonus to the Confeds w/QB can be frustrating at the higher levels.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GShock
... Takes a degree to play WiF really...i don't know if it's humanly possible to build a credible AI at all in World in Flames, i hope the aussies can make it but i really don't think it's possible at all.


It's hard to make a credible AI w/a game that encompasses the whole world, i.e., the AI played better in PG's single scenario design than the AI in CEaW because the latter has to embrace multiple theaters simultaneously.



GShock -> RE: Want to Buy It but.... (5/8/2008 3:25:51 PM)

Yes, the more stuff you put the worse the AI can handle it. With FoF if the issue about AI attacking when there's no hope to win was fixed, and those resources committed elsewhere (amphibious assaults for example) the AI would see a terrific improvement, enough to make all CSA players go back to the easiest level of difficulty.

This can't have to do with the FOW imo, because i *suppose* an AI with bad scouts in a neighbouring region would NOT attack. Unfortunately, it does...which means, still supposing, that the modifiers "attracting" it towards a strategic objective are stronger than the "guess" factor of a poorly scouted enemy army.

Perhaps Erik himself can clarify why it acts like this.



ericbabe -> RE: Want to Buy It but.... (5/17/2008 9:01:43 PM)

Generally speaking, the strategic AI routines use a min-max algorithm whose parameters are modified by hundreds of heuristics both on input and after output.  Unfortunately I can't really clarify the heuristics, as each one is rather particular.  There are heuristics that keep the AI from attacking when it is overpowered, but these criteria are not always applied absolutely, and often the AI might anticipate that reinforcements will be available that may, during the movement, not actually be.  We've experimented with both a more timid and more aggressive AI, and, in general, the testers prefered the more aggressive one.  I remember the days in which the Union AI would sit for two years before it would launch a major attack, until it had an absolute mathematical advantage... it may have played a stronger game, but the testers (and this was my opinion as well) prefered a game with a bit more action.

I have considered allowing the AI to cheat and to avoid movements that result in battles iwth suicidal odds during the movement phase.  The AI is not as good as a human at synchronizing and anticipating, and this would address that shortcoming.  I think this would be a significant improvement, and it would be transparent to the player.




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