Take strong bases

Take strong bases (Full Version)

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Saso -> Take strong bases (4/30/2008 3:05:12 PM)
This is the first time that I'm trying to take a base strongly defence and I need some advices and explanations. In my PBEM I have besieged Manila, Singapore and Bataan and I'm bombarding them with the following results: (the picture show the AV modified just before the attack ends) Manila -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ground combat at Manila Japanese Bombardment attack Attacking force 119396 troops, 1342 guns, 94 vehicles, Assault Value = 2672 Defending force 61975 troops, 473 guns, 130 vehicles, Assault Value = 1190 Allied ground losses: 225 casualties reported Guns lost 1 [image]local://upfiles/28561/DF6BD66A0E9844259310B59A0FA99FE1.jpg[/image]

Saso -> RE: Take strong bases (4/30/2008 3:06:07 PM)
Singapore -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ground combat at Singapore Japanese Bombardment attack Attacking force 95436 troops, 1054 guns, 21 vehicles, Assault Value = 2216 Defending force 56599 troops, 433 guns, 14 vehicles, Assault Value = 941 Allied ground losses: 410 casualties reported Guns lost 2 [image]local://upfiles/28561/9085210D78ED4DB7B9131DEEABBD2EB2.jpg[/image]

Saso -> RE: Take strong bases (4/30/2008 3:09:31 PM)
Bataan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ground combat at Bataan Japanese Bombardment attack Attacking force 42722 troops, 427 guns, 30 vehicles, Assault Value = 820 Defending force 21289 troops, 221 guns, 1 vehicles, Assault Value = 487 Japanese ground losses: 8 casualties reported Guns lost 1 Allied ground losses: 128 casualties reported Guns lost 8 Here also the enemy has bombarded and I think that his units are in good shape. [image]local://upfiles/28561/EF13C596A99D4728B942347CF1666A18.jpg[/image]

Saso -> RE: Take strong bases (4/30/2008 3:10:52 PM)
What I really need to understand is how "read" the AV value of the bombardment combat report. Manila example: Japanese Bombardment attack Attacking force 119396 troops, 1342 guns, 94 vehicles, Assault Value = 2672 Defending force 61975 troops, 473 guns, 130 vehicles, Assault Value = 1190 These AV values have been modified by several factors (HQ, defence, experience, I think the terrain and so on) but do they show me the overall value of all my/enemy elements or only whom has made the bombardment? In this case the defender's AV value what does it means? Reading the good post of Feinder about calculation assault strenght, I'd have another questions... (part of his post) f. Terrain benefits defender, even if he doesn't own the base clear = x1 woods = x2 Mountains/Swamp = x3 Urban = x4 g. Forts benefit defender 0 = x1 1 = x1.1 2 = x1.25 3 = x1.5 4 = x1.75 5 = x2 6 = x2.25 7 = x2.5 8 = x2.75 9 = x3 Hypothesis: I want to lead a shock attack against Manila, forts 4 (this is an example, I'm still not sure yet), urban hex. 1) From Manual Skripta: Attacking Units' fire is doubled for odds calculations Will my AV value be 2672x2 (shock attack)? 2) From Manual Skripta: Defensive fire is doubled against Shock Attacks Will enemy AV value be 1190x2 (shock attack) x4 (urban) x 1.75 (forts)?

rtrapasso -> RE: Take strong bases (4/30/2008 3:16:49 PM)
The double defensive fire means that the defenders (who normally attrit your forces with artillery when you attack) get to have two rounds of attrition instead of one (not double AV)... if the defender has little artillery (or ammo) this might not be so bad... if they have a lot of arty and ammo, it will hurt... Also, attackers seem to get a lot more disrupted, etc. due to a shock attack (independent of double attrition).

John Lansford -> RE: Take strong bases (4/30/2008 3:24:24 PM)
You need to reduce those fortifications down to zero, or you'll just keep pounding your infantry into bloody pulp. Naval bombardments and aerial attacks are your friends, as are lots of combat engineers supporting your infantry. If you've got tanks they will help too, but IRL the Japanese had very few of them.

rtrapasso -> RE: Take strong bases (4/30/2008 3:37:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: John Lansford You need to reduce those fortifications down to zero, or you'll just keep pounding your infantry into bloody pulp. Naval bombardments and aerial attacks are your friends, as are lots of combat engineers supporting your infantry. If you've got tanks they will help too, but IRL the Japanese had very few of them. Yeah - trying to hit Manilla if it has 4 forts (!) would be like trying to knock down a brick wall by ramming it with your head - without a helmet... it would hurt as bad, and be about as productive. Use up the enemy supplies - hit the airfields and he has to repair them as long as there are engineers there.

USSAmerica -> RE: Take strong bases (4/30/2008 4:26:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rtrapasso quote: ORIGINAL: John Lansford You need to reduce those fortifications down to zero, or you'll just keep pounding your infantry into bloody pulp. Naval bombardments and aerial attacks are your friends, as are lots of combat engineers supporting your infantry. If you've got tanks they will help too, but IRL the Japanese had very few of them. Yeah - trying to hit Manilla if it has 4 forts (!) would be like trying to knock down a brick wall by ramming it with your head - without a helmet... it would hurt as bad, and be about as productive. Use up the enemy supplies - hit the airfields and he has to repair them as long as there are engineers there. Bombing his airfields will serve 2 purposes. Repair eats supplies, and more importantly, it keeps his engineers busy with repairs instead of building forts! If you don't have combat engineers to add to your assault, who can tear down the fortifications, your best bet is using up his supply and starving him out. Once his supply drops below the required levels, he will not recover disabled squads, and his AV will drop. This will accelerate as his supply completely runs out. He'll still be sitting in an urban hex (AV X4), and behind level 4 forts (AV X another 1.75), but you will be dropping his base AV through starvation. 0 X 4 X 1.75 is still 0. [;)]

rtrapasso -> RE: Take strong bases (4/30/2008 4:32:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: USS America quote: ORIGINAL: rtrapasso quote: ORIGINAL: John Lansford You need to reduce those fortifications down to zero, or you'll just keep pounding your infantry into bloody pulp. Naval bombardments and aerial attacks are your friends, as are lots of combat engineers supporting your infantry. If you've got tanks they will help too, but IRL the Japanese had very few of them. Yeah - trying to hit Manilla if it has 4 forts (!) would be like trying to knock down a brick wall by ramming it with your head - without a helmet... it would hurt as bad, and be about as productive. Use up the enemy supplies - hit the airfields and he has to repair them as long as there are engineers there. Bombing his airfields will serve 2 purposes. Repair eats supplies, and more importantly, it keeps his engineers busy with repairs instead of building forts! If you don't have combat engineers to add to your assault, who can tear down the fortifications, your best bet is using up his supply and starving him out. Once his supply drops below the required levels, he will not recover disabled squads, and his AV will drop. This will accelerate as his supply completely runs out. He'll still be sitting in an urban hex (AV X4), and behind level 4 forts (AV X another 1.75), but you will be dropping his base AV through starvation. 0 X 4 X 1.75 is still 0. [;)] Well, it never quite drops to 0 - it goes to .25 with 0 supplies, iirc... Niceguy was able to hold Manilla for weeks after he ran out of supply in Threadwar.

Saso -> RE: Take strong bases (4/30/2008 6:21:49 PM)
quote: The double defensive fire means that the defenders (who normally attrit your forces with artillery when you attack) get to have two rounds of attrition instead of one (not double AV)... if the defender has little artillery (or ammo) this might not be so bad... if they have a lot of arty and ammo, it will hurt... Thanks rtrapasso, my big misunderstanting. quote: You need to reduce those fortifications down to zero, or you'll just keep pounding your infantry into bloody pulp. Naval bombardments and aerial attacks are your friends, as are lots of combat engineers supporting your infantry. If you've got tanks they will help too, but IRL the Japanese had very few of them. I made several port attacks and then I sent MSW in minesweeping mission but the outcome hasn't been good...[:(] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Naval Gun Fire at Bataan (42,51) - Coastal Guns Fire Back! 36 Coastal gun shots fired in defense. Japanese Ships MSW W.17, Shell hits 18, on fire, heavy damage MSW W.9, Shell hits 7, on fire, heavy damage MSW W.10, Shell hits 1, on fire, heavy damage MSW W.7 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TF 27 encounters mine field at Singapore (23,50) - Coastal Guns Fire Back! 120 Coastal gun shots fired in defense. Japanese Ships MSW W.15, Shell hits 19, on fire, heavy damage MSW W.16, Shell hits 15, on fire, heavy damage MSW W.19, Shell hits 37, on fire, heavy damage -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TF 107 encounters mine field at Singapore (23,50) - Coastal Guns Fire Back! 35 Coastal gun shots fired in defense. Japanese Ships MSW Banshu Maru #52, Shell hits 4, on fire, heavy damage MSW Banshu Maru #56, Shell hits 14, on fire, heavy damage quote: Use up the enemy supplies - hit the airfields and he has to repair them as long as there are engineers there. Yes, I'm making airfield and bombardment attacks almost every turn. quote: Once his supply drops below the required levels, he will not recover disabled squads, and his AV will drop. I must look closely at combat reports. Manila Previous turn: Defending force 61975 troops, 473 guns, 130 vehicles, Assault Value = 1190 Last turn: Defending force 62046 troops, 485 guns, 131 vehicles, Assault Value = 1191 Singapore Previous turn: Defending force 56599 troops, 433 guns, 14 vehicles, Assault Value = 941 Last turn: Defending force 56046 troops, 429 guns, 14 vehicles, Assault Value = 948 Bataan Previous turn: Defending force 21289 troops, 221 guns, 1 vehicles, Assault Value = 487 Last turn: Defending force 20904 troops, 203 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 479 quote: He'll still be sitting in an urban hex (AV X4), and behind level 4 forts (AV X another 1.75) Ok, defender's AV value will be 1190 x4 (urban) x 1.75 (forts) total= 8330 attacker's AV value will be 2672. Is necessary the same AV value to achieve odd 1 to 1 at least, is it correct?

USSAmerica -> RE: Take strong bases (4/30/2008 6:25:56 PM)
There are also die roll modifiers for both the attacker and defender, but yes, you are basically correct. Looking at the AV for your opponent's troops, it looks like he is not yet short of supply in Singapore or Manila. The slight increase in AV is probably the result of his troops experience level increasing.

rtrapasso -> RE: Take strong bases (4/30/2008 6:54:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: USS America There are also die roll modifiers for both the attacker and defender, but yes, you are basically correct. Looking at the AV for your opponent's troops, it looks like he is not yet short of supply in Singapore or Manila. The slight increase in AV is probably the result of his troops experience level increasing. All kinds of die rolls involved - AV can fluctuate due to these.

Q-Ball -> RE: Take strong bases (4/30/2008 7:57:46 PM)
I have seen others claim that airfield repair DOES NOT burn supplies. Disrupted elements use supplies to get back to strength, but filling in bomb craters does NOT burn supplies. That's what I have read anyway, can't remember the thread, but there seems to be different opinions on that subject.

rtrapasso -> RE: Take strong bases (4/30/2008 8:08:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Q-Ball I have seen others claim that airfield repair DOES NOT burn supplies. Disrupted elements use supplies to get back to strength, but filling in bomb craters does NOT burn supplies. That's what I have read anyway, can't remember the thread, but there seems to be different opinions on that subject. [&:] [X(] That's not been my experience... it would be easy to test, i think... set up a game - bomb airfield (or don't) and see what it does to supply when they repair (vs. don't repair).

sprior -> RE: Take strong bases (4/30/2008 8:09:31 PM)
I believe it's the Airbase hits 2 Airbase supply hits 4 Runway hits 12 Port supply hits 1 bits that say "supply hits" that destroy the supplies. IIRC it's a percentage of existing supplies.

rtrapasso -> RE: Take strong bases (4/30/2008 8:13:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sprior I believe it's the Airbase hits 2 Airbase supply hits 4 Runway hits 12 Port supply hits 1 bits that say "supply hits" that destroy the supplies. IIRC it's a percentage of existing supplies. Remembering some of the sieges i've gone through, i seem to remember ANY time the AF got bombed, supplies were eaten up at an increased rate during the times when repairs were underway. i should run a test on this, though... it could be different then when i was playing/learning on the AI (a long time ago) and could check on things.

Mynok -> RE: Take strong bases (4/30/2008 8:14:57 PM)
Please do that and report back. Chop, chop! [:'(]

rtrapasso -> RE: Take strong bases (4/30/2008 8:15:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mynok Please do that and report back. Chop, chop! [:'(] [:'(]

Q-Ball -> RE: Take strong bases (4/30/2008 10:00:15 PM)
That would be an interesting test. I'm not SAYING that's true, I'm just saying someone said it. I think that's probably right though, that AIRBASE hits do NOT take supply, but AIRBASE SUPPLY hits DO.

marky -> RE: Take strong bases (5/1/2008 6:00:16 AM)
hmmm... 1. fighter sweep 2. bomber raids on port and airfield 3. ground attack missions by fighters and 1 bomber sqrn 4. naval blockade 5. nell and betty blockade 6. gunfire bombardment 7. arty bombardment from troops repeat as neccessary

Saso -> RE: Take strong bases (5/1/2008 2:03:51 PM)
quote: 3. ground attack missions by fighters and 1 bomber sqrn Why only one bomber squadron? Fighters in strafing? quote: 4. naval blockade 5. nell and betty blockade You mean that the enemy TFs can't leave/enter into port? quote: 6. gunfire bombardment Very difficult, too many CDs and mines. [:(]

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