Is 3.6.3 available? (Full Version)

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WetJustice -> Is 3.6.3 available? (5/4/2008 4:57:29 AM)

Hi,

I wanted to play some old scenarios. Is there anyway I could get 3.6.3. I have ver. 3.9.

Thanks.



WetJustice -> RE: Is 3.6.3 available? (5/4/2008 5:39:46 AM)

Can the HarpoonHQ DBs or scenarios be used with 3.9?



TonyE -> RE: Is 3.6.3 available? (5/4/2008 6:40:06 AM)

There is no way to ethically acquire 3.6.3, even if it seems that it being unavailable is unethical in and of itself.

Some of the HHQ DBs are updated for 3.9, some others work but are not optimized.  The Colonial Wars DB for instance is edited with 3.9 in mind while DB2000 at present is still more of a 3.6.3 beast.  HHQ can certainly fill you in more completely, www.harpoonhq.com




WetJustice -> RE: Is 3.6.3 available? (5/4/2008 4:57:20 PM)

Thanks for the quick reply. I don't see the point in not having 3.6.3 available to people that payed. Is there any reason for this Matrix?



rsharp@advancedgamin -> RE: Is 3.6.3 available? (5/5/2008 4:53:17 AM)

Howdy guys,

We simply don't have the staff or budget to support or offer older versions. We maintain that the latest version we offer is the best version though there is still a lot of work to be done. I do not see what is unethical about not distributing older versions of the game or any software.

DB2k and most other community databases do offer a 3.9 compliant version of their databases and scenarios, according to them.

Thanks,



mikmykWS -> RE: Is 3.6.3 available? (5/5/2008 6:21:31 AM)

We're not doing much Harpoon stuff at all these days besides supporting a bunch of guys that still visit our site, Paul's project etc. Most of our focus is on our real lives and frankly given all thats gone on with this game the last couple years thats probably best. We are definitely not interested in the politics surrounding the messes of this game! What a bad way to spend time and something that nearly shut our site down.

Please leave us alone. If we do get requests for 3.6.x we'll be directing them to you.

Thank You!

Mike HHQ



Erik Rutins -> RE: Is 3.6.3 available? (5/5/2008 6:24:27 AM)

WetJustice,

quote:

ORIGINAL: WetJustice
Thanks for the quick reply. I don't see the point in not having 3.6.3 available to people that payed. Is there any reason for this Matrix?


We were not even involved in Harpoon back in the 3.6.x versions. Our releases started with 3.7.0 and Harpoon 3 ANW. As Russell noted, we also do not have the resources to support older versions of the game, but we are putting all our efforts towards making the new versions better.

Regards,

- Erik



Dimitris -> RE: Is 3.6.3 available? (5/5/2008 10:29:34 AM)

Of course, when the HarpoonHQ site voluntarily offered to take on the slack of completely supporting the 3.6.3 version that so many guys were asking about (including hosting the relevant exe's for use by registered customers - said exe's hitherto freely available to the public), *someone* tightened the screws on AGSI to send their legal hounds after us.

So, perhaps the "we do not have the resources to support older versions" line may not cover the entirety of the reasons.



Sirius.. -> RE: Is 3.6.3 available? (5/5/2008 7:40:04 PM)

Hi if your interested I have Colonial Wars DB and Scenario's for 3.6.2/3 at the following location
Colonial Wars database at the Harpoon Headquarters

happy pooning



Erik Rutins -> RE: Is 3.6.3 available? (5/6/2008 11:36:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn
Of course, when the HarpoonHQ site voluntarily offered to take on the slack of completely supporting the 3.6.3 version that so many guys were asking about (including hosting the relevant exe's for use by registered customers - said exe's hitherto freely available to the public), *someone* tightened the screws on AGSI to send their legal hounds after us.
So, perhaps the "we do not have the resources to support older versions" line may not cover the entirety of the reasons.


Although I've heard quite a different version of that story, I think it's fair to say that it's in the past now. Going forward, we're focusing on making 3.9.x+ as stable and error-free as possible, so that there will be no need to look back to 3.6.x. It's clear to me that the reason for the 3.6.x requests is that people knew that version well and a lot of content was created to work around the issues it have. The versions since then have fixed many things and added some nice new features including multiplayer, but they've also introduced a fair number of bugs and we haven't been as responsive and forthright as we should have been in dealing with that.

Our goal now is to make 3.9.x better than 3.6.x ever was in all respects, so that's where we are focusing all our energy and resources.



Dagooz -> RE: Is 3.6.3 available? (5/11/2008 11:48:27 AM)

rsharp:
quote:

We maintain that the latest version we offer is the best version though there is still a lot of work to be done.


vs this

Erik Rutins
quote:

Our goal now is to make 3.9.x better than 3.6.x ever was in all respects, so that's where we are focusing all our energy and resources.


Kinda contradicts eachother. One is saying that ANW is better, but then saying the goal is to make ANW better than 3.6.3 you imply that ANW is actually worse at present point...



Shemar -> RE: Is 3.6.3 available? (5/11/2008 11:51:25 PM)

Only if you don't read it properly. The way I read it is that 3.9.x is 'better' but there are aspects of the game that 3.6.x may be better and as a result 3.9.x is not necessarily 'better in all aspects' than 3.6.x

You can say that a Ferrari is better car than a Ford F150, but the F150 is still better at hauling loads. There is a difference between 'better' and 'better in all aspects' and something can easily be better but not better in all aspects than something else. In fact, this is usually the case with everythng in life. [;)]



Dagooz -> RE: Is 3.6.3 available? (5/12/2008 1:03:57 AM)

Well, this is harpoon vs harpoon so...



Shemar -> RE: Is 3.6.3 available? (5/12/2008 4:22:56 PM)

That does not change anything. Since you need it explained, 3.9.x is overall much better than 3.6.x, however there are some things that used to work better in 3.6.x (I am told I never played it, but that's the implication) therefore 3.9.x. is not (yet) better in all apsects than 3.9.x. No contradiction.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Is 3.6.3 available? (5/12/2008 4:53:04 PM)

Dagooz,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dagooz
rsharp:
quote:

We maintain that the latest version we offer is the best version though there is still a lot of work to be done.


vs this

Erik Rutins
quote:

Our goal now is to make 3.9.x better than 3.6.x ever was in all respects, so that's where we are focusing all our energy and resources.


Kinda contradicts eachother. One is saying that ANW is better, but then saying the goal is to make ANW better than 3.6.3 you imply that ANW is actually worse at present point...


My point was simply that there are some folks who consider 3.6.x to have been the best release. Our goal is to win those folks over with 3.9.x.

Regards,

- Erik



cuthbo2001 -> RE: Is 3.6.3 available? (5/12/2008 8:59:22 PM)

quote:

My point was simply that there are some folks who consider 3.6.x to have been the best release. Our goal is to win those folks over with 3.9.x.


Sorry but I can't just accept this BS! I understand quite rightly you wish to make ANW better, best , definitive etc. However it is a little disingenuous to say you wish to win those folks over. In reality what you have done is made ANW the only game in town when it comes to harpoon (other than harpoon classic). If you are confident in your ability in making ANW the best then where is the harm in letting other sites host the patches. Surely nature would then takes its course?



rsharp@advancedgamin -> RE: Is 3.6.3 available? (5/12/2008 10:57:25 PM)

I understand that it seems simple to offer both versions but we are not going to deal with multiple publishers or make publishers deal with multiple versions. We will not handle two different registration schemes or the added support required even if people in the community believe they will handle it all.

We are going to put our resources to moving forward with the game. That means a better set of features made more stable than ever.

It is a matter of business sense but it is not disingenuous.

Thanks for the years of support,



cuthbo2001 -> RE: Is 3.6.3 available? (5/12/2008 11:21:43 PM)

I understand that, however as far as I can tell there are other sites out there willinging to offer the exe files to registered users. Where is the cost to matrix? However from what I understand this option was blocked. Hence it is easy to say that ANW will become\is the better\best. fact is regardless there are no options for old time users other than ANW ie. no competition on the harpoon front. The whole thing does leave a bit of a bad taste in the mouth



Dagooz -> RE: Is 3.6.3 available? (5/12/2008 11:27:29 PM)

The everlasting problem that will keep slapping you (AGSI) in the face: Winning people over should have been done at release but the game has never delivered. This is just the classic 'doing too little too late' reaction. A lot of people has already left this and a miracle will have to be pulled off to haul them back to H3. I dont believe its possible but best of luck with that.



FreekS -> RE: Is 3.6.3 available? (5/13/2008 12:22:47 AM)

All,

As a designer of scenarios for 3.5 through 3.9 I've worked with all versions. 3.6 was very good; it was stable, had fixed many bugs from the past and others I had learnt to work around. 3.9 has some very good additions/improvements over 3.6; amongst those are Multiplayer, fixing the terrible Visual Sighting Bug that 3.6 had, making the Sun turn the right way around the Earth and ensuring Ordnance in Dumps could actually run out.
The cost for these great improvements has been high; many new behaviours and bugs were introduced and specifically scenario designers like myself have found that many of their old scenarios, finetuned to 3.6 do not work as intended and I for one have not released about half of the scens I have ever made for 3.9 (yet).
My main gripe has always been that 3.9 is not backwards compatible with 3.6 from the designers point of view and that too little thought has been given to new behaviours and their impact.

Having said all that, I find 3.9 very playable. I have been able to (and continue to) rebuild some of my scens for it (which unfortunately costs almost as much time as building new scens). The main challenge for AGSI and Matrix is to PRIORITISE what needs to be done first; what are the real bad behaviours that must be fixed. Among those could be some bug-fixes, could be rebuilding the canned scenerio's and DBs, rewriting the manual and tutorials to help newly starting customers and rebuilding the contact with a wide group of experienced users. My main worry is too much focus on new features, and continued changes to AI and mission behaviour which would continue to damage existing scens.

Erik, thanks for the positive steps taken. Hope we can communicate about priorities and strategies with the full community.

Freek





Hertston -> RE: Is 3.6.3 available? (5/13/2008 12:59:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cuthbo2001

I understand that, however as far as I can tell there are other sites out there willinging to offer the exe files to registered users. Where is the cost to matrix? However from what I understand this option was blocked.


I don't think Matrix have anything to do with it; their involvement started with 3.7 ANW and presumably they have no rights with regard to any prior versions?

As someone new to Harpoon with the Matrix version I found this whole debate confusing, off-putting and, frankly, pretty puerile at times from both sides. However, as has been said, it now seems to be water under the bridge. Larry Bond has spoken. The Harpoon HQ folks have have enough, and have moved on. Harpoon 3 is 3.9 and the only option now seems to be to move on.

quote:

Hence it is easy to say that ANW will become\is the better\best. fact is regardless there are no options for old time users other than ANW ie. no competition on the harpoon front.


I find that a bit odd.. why should there be any 'competition' between versions of the same product? I suppose it's vaguely analogous to the Vista v. XP thing, but even the XP diehards (including me) don't find it difficult to understand why M$ would want to kill XP off rather than continue to develop and support it any longer than they have to. And M$ have a much bigger budget than AGSI!





cuthbo2001 -> RE: Is 3.6.3 available? (5/13/2008 2:22:58 PM)

A lot of this has already been said and I don't want to start another protracted round of bickering. My point is simply this. Matrix are entitled to make their own commercial decision , just as microsoft is. However that is not the same as restricting access for want of a better word"patches" to previously released games\versions hosted by third parties at no cost to themselves. If indeed this decision purely lies with AGSI then I apologise to matrix. However given that coordination of development on ANW seems to be communicated via matrix it seems reasonable to assume they had some say\knowledge of this decision to restrict access. Again I would reiterate, give us long term users a real choice, I have no doubt that with the goodwill of helpers ANW will become the harpoon of choice. I have thrown in my tuppence worth and won't be mentioning it again



Erik Rutins -> RE: Is 3.6.3 available? (5/13/2008 5:01:36 PM)

It's true that we weren't involved with Harpoon when 3.6.x was the release version. We came on board with ANW and 3.7.0. However, we've discussed this with AGSI and agree that at this point supporting multiple versions (and we would end up supporting them, regardless of how they are distributed) would be more than we can handle. We'd rather support the current version well than all versions poorly and as a small company that's basically the choice when it comes to staff and resources.

When 3.7.0 ANW was released, we offered a pretty good upgrade discount to previous owners who'd purchased earlier versions through AGSI. We've also continued to support ANW for two years now with free upgrades. It doesn't make a lot of sense for us to try to support a version that is more than two years old at this point.

We're putting all our effort into the 3.9.x series of free updates and making those as good as we possibly can. I'm sorry if that's disappointing.

Regards,

- Erik



Erik Rutins -> RE: Is 3.6.3 available? (5/13/2008 5:04:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FreekS
My main gripe has always been that 3.9 is not backwards compatible with 3.6 from the designers point of view and that too little thought has been given to new behaviours and their impact.


While we can't rewind and somehow add backwards compatibility now, one of our goals in the future is to fix issues and not require scenario rewrites. It doesn't make sense to "break" the existing content every time we upgrade, if we can possibly avoid it.

quote:

Having said all that, I find 3.9 very playable. I have been able to (and continue to) rebuild some of my scens for it (which unfortunately costs almost as much time as building new scens). The main challenge for AGSI and Matrix is to PRIORITISE what needs to be done first; what are the real bad behaviours that must be fixed. Among those could be some bug-fixes, could be rebuilding the canned scenerio's and DBs, rewriting the manual and tutorials to help newly starting customers and rebuilding the contact with a wide group of experienced users. My main worry is too much focus on new features, and continued changes to AI and mission behaviour which would continue to damage existing scens.


These are good suggestions and I agree in principle with the priorities expressed above.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Is 3.6.3 available? (5/13/2008 5:07:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cuthbo2001
Sorry but I can't just accept this BS! I understand quite rightly you wish to make ANW better, best , definitive etc. However it is a little disingenuous to say you wish to win those folks over. In reality what you have done is made ANW the only game in town when it comes to harpoon (other than harpoon classic). If you are confident in your ability in making ANW the best then where is the harm in letting other sites host the patches. Surely nature would then takes its course?


The people who own 3.6.x already have it and there's nothing preventing them from playing it. We have no interest in new 3.6.x sales or any free distribution of 3.6.x for a few reasons. First, we're a commercial enterprise and we need to make money in order to keep improving and supporting Harpoon. Second, regardless of how it was handled, we would end up supporting it - I've seen this wth other releases where similar things were tried and we don't have the resources to do that and focus on new and current versions. This game is simply too complex to keep multi-version support going back more than two years. The third reason relates to some past history that I can't fully explain, but suffice it to say that AGSI prefers that the and we be the only distributors of Harpoon.

Regards,

- Erik



hermanhum -> RE: Harpoon (5/14/2008 12:15:19 PM)

quote:


ORIGINAL: FreekS

too little thought has been given to new behaviours and their impact.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1803646


I heartily agree. There are several instances of this already occurring in the past with new features such as the Signature function, automated defensive fire, and incompatibility between ANW versions. Lengthy debates on the shortcomings of these functions have ensued, but only after the functions already appeared in public release.

Another example just arose. [http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1804987] AGSI certainly deserves full points for responding to a customer and attempting to provide support. However, in this particular case, the cure may prove worse than the minor ailment. Long-term consideration of consequences and a healthy open discussion of future features is the only way to prevent the introduction of less than successful functions.



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