Why this, and not von Manstein's Backhand Blow? (Full Version)

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Jack1986 -> Why this, and not von Manstein's Backhand Blow? (5/5/2008 1:33:57 AM)

Why has Matrix selected this battle, and not von Manstein's Backhand Blow battle, one which would (to me) provide a vastly greater opportunity for variants, thereby allowing for much greater replayability?



Otto20000 -> RE: Why this, and not von Manstein's Backhand Blow? (5/5/2008 4:55:13 AM)

I thought that the back hand blow would be a good scenario for SSG to add into the release for an additional scenario since it should be easier to make since you would use the same map.  Therefore nobody can complain about only one scenario.



Gregor_SSG -> RE: Why this, and not von Manstein's Backhand Blow? (5/5/2008 7:23:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jack1986

Why has Matrix selected this battle, and not von Manstein's Backhand Blow battle, one which would (to me) provide a vastly greater opportunity for variants, thereby allowing for much greater replayability?


We'll this comes under the heading of not being able to please everybody all the time. Do Market Garden and you get assailed for being predictable and repetitive. Do something different and people ask for the better known battle.

Can I just say that this battle is very exciting and fair for both sides, in a way that's not guaranteed for battles on this scale. You will enjoy playing both sides since they both get their fair share of attack and defence.

Gregor



Jack1986 -> RE: Why this, and not von Manstein's Backhand Blow? (5/5/2008 8:58:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Otto20000

I thought that the back hand blow would be a good scenario for SSG to add into the release for an additional scenario since it should be easier to make since you would use the same map. Therefore nobody can complain about only one scenario.

I should have figured this out myself. Your reply is an excellent example of why I love this forum. Thank you very much!



Jack1986 -> RE: Why this, and not von Manstein's Backhand Blow? (5/5/2008 10:32:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregor_SSG


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jack1986

Why has Matrix selected this battle, and not von Manstein's Backhand Blow battle, one which would (to me) provide a vastly greater opportunity for variants, thereby allowing for much greater replayability?


We'll this comes under the heading of not being able to please everybody all the time. Do Market Garden and you get assailed for being predictable and repetitive. Do something different and people ask for the better known battle.

Can I just say that this battle is very exciting and fair for both sides, in a way that's not guaranteed for battles on this scale. You will enjoy playing both sides since they both get their fair share of attack and defence.

Gregor

Touche!
And, thank you for the explanation. I always enjoy your reasoned and positive posts.



Adam Parker -> RE: Why this, and not von Manstein's Backhand Blow? (5/6/2008 12:51:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Otto20000

I thought that the back hand blow would be a good scenario for SSG to add into the release for an additional scenario since it should be easier to make since you would use the same map.  Therefore nobody can complain about only one scenario.


Very, highly, extremely unlikely imo - and if any company lets such a scenario be "officially" created without a full development cycle of researching and testing behind it, they'll be doing their product, themselves and the hobby a disservice.

The "Backhand Blow" (aka "Kharkov" 3 or "Kharkov 43") has to memory only been fully explored as a boardgame by GMT - and never by any PC war game developer.

But the days when war game designers travelled the libraries, archives and battlefields of the world to bring history to their public, are long over. A game covering the "Backhand Blow" would have been a money maker and PC game award winner.



Ola Berli -> RE: Why this, and not von Manstein's Backhand Blow? (5/6/2008 1:33:41 AM)

Adam Parker,

I know of 2 usermade sce. for that battle/operation. One for Battles in Italy. You find it at the SSG site usermade sce.( Last Victory in Russia ) and
one for PZC Kharkov'42 made of " Marquo " You find it at the sce. download for Kharkov usersce. at The Blitz.

I have a feeling that SSG will come with this battle/operation in the future. Now they have a very detailed map!



Jack1986 -> RE: Why this, and not von Manstein's Backhand Blow? (5/6/2008 1:48:56 AM)

Adam,

In the late 80s Clash of Arms released "The Last Victory," an operational level simulation of Manstein's Backhand Blow. It was designed by John Schettler, and used Schettler's Winter Storm system.



Adam Parker -> RE: Why this, and not von Manstein's Backhand Blow? (5/6/2008 11:20:09 AM)

Thanks Jack I'll check it out.

Hi Ola, I do not doubt that there are some user-made scenarios for TOAW too.

But no disrespect to these grognards who poured their hearts and souls into them, I'm talking fully-fledged games with the research and design experience of a Dunnigan, Greenwood, Saunders, Herman, Simonitch, Balkoski, Beach, Hamilton or Berg.

People who'd cite microfilm in their game's bibliographies or who looked at the primary sources quoted by a Glantz and then create design paradigms as an out pouring from them.

Full, meaty games that would educate as well as entertain.



Ola Berli -> RE: Why this, and not von Manstein's Backhand Blow? (5/6/2008 10:37:35 PM)

Adam Parker,

yes I understand You are talking about a professional made game. Must say it is very strange that HPS have not made this battle a HPS title!



Adam Parker -> RE: Why this, and not von Manstein's Backhand Blow? (5/7/2008 1:00:06 AM)

True!!! That's why I'd have cried with joy if SSG had gotten it first [:)]



erichswafford -> RE: Why this, and not von Manstein's Backhand Blow? (5/14/2008 10:34:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

True!!! That's why I'd have cried with joy if SSG had gotten it first [:)]


Me too. I've got the GMT game in question and really feel this is the defining "fun"/balanced battle on the eastern front. Russian numbers and combat power vs. a bunch of rear-echelon clerks (plus a smattering of God-like elite units) and Manstein's genius.

It gets no better than this. I wish kids today were as excited by this sort of thing as I was at 15. All they wanna do is play "twitch" FPS's. I do love COD4, however ;-)



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