U.S. Entry in WaW33 (Full Version)

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DicedT -> U.S. Entry in WaW33 (5/15/2008 1:10:59 AM)

U.S. entry is not affected by Axis actions in WaW. Unless Germany does Barbarossa or Sealion, the Axis do a Pacman strategy, gobble up Spain, Turkey, etc., without worrying about America entering the war.

I played World in Flames for years, and Wif had a very clever system for handling this. The Axis could attack whoever they wanted, but every time they attacked a neutral or seized a strategic point (Gibralter, Suez, etc.), there was a chance that U.S. entry would accelerate by a turn or two. So the Axis had to weigh the advantages of an aggressive strategy versus the probability of the U.S. entering the war by, say, spring '41.

I think WaW needs this kind of mechanism for both realism and balance. If the Axis are particularly successful or aggressive, then then U.S. should enter the war early. Or, maybe Britain gets a production bonus to reflect increased Lend-Lease, or Russia gets a bonus to reflect Stalin's alarm at German success.



seille -> RE: U.S. Entry in WaW33 (5/15/2008 12:01:40 PM)

Same feelings here. I think the US enter the War too late.
Axis has a big production advantage when France and Balkans are conquered.
Boston is never really a factor in this scenario. They have either to produce PP for at least some small R&D or they have
to produce supply to feed England. Or, worst case, they have to produce DDīs to fight German naval(sub) units in the Atlantic.

Germany has a mainland production and not spreaded over the whole world like the western production.
With the new setup of reduced plane range and carrier air itīs now not too hard for Germany to
be a threat to these supply lines. England canīt threat Axis production until they researched
Bomber III and Fighter III. And thatīs a long way with the actual R&D costs. Impossible to do before the US
starts their help.

Indeed, a german main success should alert the US and wake up some more production.
Toronto, Boston and Vancouver is a bad trade looking at what the Axis get when France is gone....
I would not hav ea problem to get PP help only from US. This would take some pressure from
English homeland production which is VERY limited.

Would be nice if other players share their opinion here.
I must say that i agree 100% with DicedT.



alaric318 -> RE: U.S. Entry in WaW33 (5/15/2008 12:39:05 PM)

greetings, maybe a aproach to chit entry USA in world in flames, i have in mind some short of "strategic will to fight", comes from "for the people", a board game from avalon hill and gmt games, i think it can be done trough event engine, Adv. Tactics event engine is one of the most powerfull available, but i do not have invested time on it, on the event engine i are a novice, you have a variable, "global allied morale" or "strategic will", and you can base the USA war entry effort overall trough this decreasing, each 25 points or each 30 points a production center become active, as an example, you need strategic will cities, i most use house rules on most of my games but never let USA/Russia enter beyond june 41, just declare war, obviously in most games it is a shame that aside you declare war on USA them not become more much active untill '43 or '44, but may not be so on advanced tactics, given that in most of my games played i see a very agressive play by AI opponents, so, you maybe can have as strategic cities, tobruk, paris, cairo, leningrad, stalingrad and moscow, can be balanced for pro-allies or pro-axis including some more, as london, kiev, warsaw, etc.

then base the winning level on this variable, each strategic city do 1 damage to allied strategic will, can start at 120/90, if it is enough reduced the final outcome is an automatic stalemate, beyond 0 or at -30 maybe, is an automatic axis victory, you can stablish levels of victory, in example as follow...,

120-90... strategic allied victory
89-60... operational allied victory
59-30... tactical allied victory
29-0... automatic stalemate, game keeps going untill all axis capitols are conquered or you reach minus 30/40/50 strategic will that is an automatic axis victory,

obviously will be hard work to make this to work on the engine, so, i usually use house rules about it,

my oppinion, hope it helps to give some more ideas about it.

with best regards,

alarick/murat30.



DicedT -> RE: U.S. Entry in WaW33 (5/15/2008 4:40:33 PM)

An easy solution would be to activate one U.S. production city for each neutral invaded by the Axis, or certain strategic points (Gibraltar, Suez).



von altair -> RE: U.S. Entry in WaW33 (5/15/2008 4:44:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seille

Same feelings here. I think the US enter the War too late.
Axis has a big production advantage when France and Balkans are conquered.
Boston is never really a factor in this scenario. They have either to produce PP for at least some small R&D or they have
to produce supply to feed England. Or, worst case, they have to produce DDīhttp://www.matrixgames.com/forums/post.asp?do=reply&q=1&messageID=1805728&toStyle=tms to fight German naval(sub) units in the Atlantic.



US enter the war too late???? They enter just where they did it in real. There can
be 1-2 random month (which is only good thing) becose it depends how well, Allied player defends in France. I've played Allies for 4 games now and they are actually quite well balanced.

Anyway I agree with DicedT. There can always be more and more events to do this and that. Scenarios like World at War are like neverending story. There are always situations which could be made better.



DicedT -> RE: U.S. Entry in WaW33 (5/15/2008 5:45:43 PM)

The problem isn't that the U.S. enters too late. The problem is that Germany can gobble up Spain, Turkey and the Med, and the U.S. and Russia are frozen like deer in the headlights. It's always dangerous game design when one side has complete flexibility in choosing a strategy, and the other side is locked into a fixed deployment.

It's a major flaw in the game, and it's the same problem that makes Strategic Command 2 and CEAW a bore after a while. Bang. Germany takes Sweden. Bang. Germany takes Spain. Bang. Germany takes Turkey. It becomes so choreographed. Too bad there isn't a mod that lets you fast forward to 1941, with Germany occupying all of Europe and ready to pounce on Russia.



von altair -> RE: U.S. Entry in WaW33 (5/15/2008 7:59:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DicedT

The problem isn't that the U.S. enters too late. The problem is that Germany can gobble up Spain, Turkey and the Med, and the U.S. and Russia are frozen like deer in the headlights. It's always dangerous game design when one side has complete flexibility in choosing a strategy, and the other side is locked into a fixed deployment.

It's a major flaw in the game, and it's the same problem that makes Strategic Command 2 and CEAW a bore after a while. Bang. Germany takes Sweden. Bang. Germany takes Spain. Bang. Germany takes Turkey. It becomes so choreographed. Too bad there isn't a mod that lets you fast forward to 1941, with Germany occupying all of Europe and ready to pounce on Russia.


IF you have checked latest version a bit closer (v33c2), you might have notice following things: You can't declare a war against Sweden at all. If you declare a war against spain or turkey, they will be added to allies ASAP (Spain to West regime and Turkey to SU). So it is not like you say "Bang, Germany takes Spain". It is a hard fight where allied or SU benefits greatly by having more units and production. Adding USA in this as well, just unbalances the game.



JAMiAM -> RE: U.S. Entry in WaW33 (5/15/2008 8:15:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: von altair

quote:

ORIGINAL: DicedT

The problem isn't that the U.S. enters too late. The problem is that Germany can gobble up Spain, Turkey and the Med, and the U.S. and Russia are frozen like deer in the headlights. It's always dangerous game design when one side has complete flexibility in choosing a strategy, and the other side is locked into a fixed deployment.

It's a major flaw in the game, and it's the same problem that makes Strategic Command 2 and CEAW a bore after a while. Bang. Germany takes Sweden. Bang. Germany takes Spain. Bang. Germany takes Turkey. It becomes so choreographed. Too bad there isn't a mod that lets you fast forward to 1941, with Germany occupying all of Europe and ready to pounce on Russia.


IF you have checked latest version a bit closer (v33c2), you might have notice following things: You can't declare a war against Sweden at all. If you declare a war against spain or turkey, they will be added to allies ASAP (Spain to West regime and Turkey to SU). So it is not like you say "Bang, Germany takes Spain". It is a hard fight where allied or SU benefits greatly by having more units and production. Adding USA in this as well, just unbalances the game.

With regard to Turkey, and Spain, the joining does not occur until the next turn (round) check. This isn't too big a deal with Spain, as Madrid is unlikely to fall on the first turn of invasion. However, with Turkey, it is very easy for Germany to take Istanbul, Gallipoli and both sides of the Dardenelles, before the joining event fires. If Germany is at peace with Russia when this happens, they stay at peace, and the borders are redrawn as per the occupied and painted territory, allowing the Germans to keep this production.



JAMiAM -> RE: U.S. Entry in WaW33 (5/15/2008 8:30:27 PM)

To add a few afterthoughts...

Both Turkey and Spain are grossly underpowered, compared to the freely available forces that the Germans can muster by the end of 1940, early 1941. Especially with the artillery-laden, train movement killer stacks, and supported by airpower.

In my mod, I'm substantially beefing up, and changing the deployment of some of the minor countries.

For Turkey, I've changed Istanbul to a City (2) and made Ankara a Resource (2). I've also added more forces facing each of the potential adversaries, and some reserves in Ankara. This will allow a enhanced ability to fight on after the first turn, regardless of the direction of attack. There has been some map redrawing there, as well, with a rail connection to Russia, and some reworking of the area around the Dardenelles.

In the Balkans, the map has been redrawn, with some rail lines and borders having been changed. Yugoslavia is slightly stronger, but their forces are more spread out. They will still fall fairly quickly to a strong, concentric attack from the Axis, but are more reasonably deployed.

Haven't yet gotten to Greece, Spain, or any of the other minors, but they will receive some revisions, too.



DicedT -> RE: U.S. Entry in WaW33 (5/15/2008 9:43:58 PM)

In the interests of full disclosure, I must announce that JAMIAM is my opponent in WaW33, and he is a far better player. So my observations may be a function of my own incompetence.

Nonetheless, I believe that Von Altair is missing the point. Whether or not Spain and Turkey fall in one turn or two, Germany can conquer those countries quickly, with minimum losses, and still have time to mass a big force for a summer or fall Barbarossa '41. Britain doesn't have the capability in 1940 to stop them. They can take their time, and methodically conquer most of Europe and North Africa without worrying about hastening U.S. or Soviet entry. They can determine the exact turn when the U.S. will enter the war, and base their plans accordingly.

World iin Flames uses a balancing mechanism in which the better the Axis do, the more quickly the U.S. enters the war. It's realistic and it makes for a more interesting game, as the Axis have to balance scooping up the neutrals versus earlier U.S. entry.



Delyn Locksmiths -> RE: U.S. Entry in WaW33 (5/15/2008 10:55:12 PM)

In my third reich scenario, if Germany defeats Britain, America doesn't enter at all. I reckon historically that is pretty true to life. Can't see america waznting to get involved in a european war to save Russia somehow.



seille -> RE: U.S. Entry in WaW33 (5/16/2008 12:22:38 AM)

When i said USA enters the war too late i did not talk about historical date or something.
I simply talked about the fact that Germany has a huge production advantage after fall of France and they play with that advantage
for nearly 2 years.
With the introduction of Carrier air and the reduction of plane range the West lost their own advantage in early game.

Imho the scenario favours Germans a lot yet.
Germany can easily invade France and the Balkans. Beside this they do tons of R&D and build up the east front.
What can the west do in this first two years ? They can be happy if they donīt lose England.

Against less experienced players all this might be no problem, but my opponents know what they do...



tweber -> RE: U.S. Entry in WaW33 (5/16/2008 9:32:00 PM)

I actually played World in Flames a while back and thought about the US entry system.  I think US entry is really one of the toughest things to model because you do not want to script the game but still have consequences for actions.  The US does come in earlier based on certain triggers (e.g., US / USSR war, Invasion of more than 50 pp in Europe).




seille -> RE: U.S. Entry in WaW33 (5/16/2008 10:38:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweber

IThe US does come in earlier based on certain triggers ........ Invasion of more than 50 pp in Europe.




Could you please explain this one ?



JAMiAM -> RE: U.S. Entry in WaW33 (5/16/2008 11:50:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: seille


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweber

IThe US does come in earlier based on certain triggers ........ Invasion of more than 50 pp in Europe.




Could you please explain this one ?


New York and Washington begin producing for the Western Allies, if there are 50+ Power Points in England.



maxfra -> RE: U.S. Entry in WaW33 (5/17/2008 12:57:59 AM)

Another rule that should be imported from WiF is different production increase for different powers or a change in garrison ratios. If Germany and japan do not attack Russia and China, even if the garrison between Germany and Russia lowers to 1:1 in 1942 it would be possible for both power to increase their advantege against the West, soviets and china thanks to they production advantage. Germany produces more than Russia so that it will be possible for Berlin to prevent a declaration of war from Moscow. The Axis may wait to attack till 1950 or later when they have used all their manpower and upgraded all their units to the highest research level.
To balance this there should be 2 ways IMHO:
1) keep decreasing german garrison values. x4 in 1940, x2 in 1941, x1 in 1942, x0,5 in 1943.
2) increase russian production from 1942 more than german, so that the soviets will be able to balance the garrison.

In such a way the best timing for the barbarossa would be in 1941 or 1942, but not later ...



DicedT -> RE: U.S. Entry in WaW33 (5/17/2008 6:04:56 PM)

Great game design is always tough, but you've done a remarkable job, Tweber. The scenario is fantastic. It just needs a little more work.

Here's a simple idea that adds realism and play balance. Invading a neutral requires the attacker to spend supply. For a major neutral like Spain or Turkey (maybe 10,000 supply points and/or 50 PP). This simulates the diplomatic cost, and more importantly the logistical effort needed to stockpile and transport supplies in regions that lacked good road and rail communications. Also, I don't know if the AT editor allows this, but can there be additional supply costs for Axis units in North Africa? This reflects the near-impossible burden the Axis would have faced in finding sufficient Italian merchant shipping - and fuel oil for the Italian Navy - to support a major army in North Africa.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweber

I actually played World in Flames a while back and thought about the US entry system. I think US entry is really one of the toughest things to model because you do not want to script the game but still have consequences for actions. The US does come in earlier based on certain triggers (e.g., US / USSR war, Invasion of more than 50 pp in Europe).






Jeffrey H. -> RE: U.S. Entry in WaW33 (5/17/2008 7:03:09 PM)

PP's could also be used as a "cost" to invade a neutral.

"Strategic Command" had a nice balancing act going for these sorts of 'diplomatic track' issues.




tweber -> RE: U.S. Entry in WaW33 (5/17/2008 8:53:28 PM)

quote:

To add a few afterthoughts...

Both Turkey and Spain are grossly underpowered, compared to the freely available forces that the Germans can muster by the end of 1940, early 1941. Especially with the artillery-laden, train movement killer stacks, and supported by airpower.

In my mod, I'm substantially beefing up, and changing the deployment of some of the minor countries.

For Turkey, I've changed Istanbul to a City (2) and made Ankara a Resource (2). I've also added more forces facing each of the potential adversaries, and some reserves in Ankara. This will allow a enhanced ability to fight on after the first turn, regardless of the direction of attack. There has been some map redrawing there, as well, with a rail connection to Russia, and some reworking of the area around the Dardenelles.

In the Balkans, the map has been redrawn, with some rail lines and borders having been changed. Yugoslavia is slightly stronger, but their forces are more spread out. They will still fall fairly quickly to a strong, concentric attack from the Axis, but are more reasonably deployed.

Haven't yet gotten to Greece, Spain, or any of the other minors, but they will receive some revisions, too.


If you redraw the map or change national boundaries, you should look at the slot structure I set up for events (event 1 comments on which slots or used for what). If you don't, you may be introducing a bunch of bugs. Also, for the vichy event, you may want to change it to a joinarea for French Indochina and then a join regime for the rest (in that sequence). Or just send me the file when you are done.



tweber -> RE: U.S. Entry in WaW33 (5/17/2008 8:58:21 PM)

quote:

Another rule that should be imported from WiF is different production increase for different powers or a change in garrison ratios. If Germany and japan do not attack Russia and China, even if the garrison between Germany and Russia lowers to 1:1 in 1942 it would be possible for both power to increase their advantege against the West, soviets and china thanks to they production advantage. Germany produces more than Russia so that it will be possible for Berlin to prevent a declaration of war from Moscow. The Axis may wait to attack till 1950 or later when they have used all their manpower and upgraded all their units to the highest research level.
To balance this there should be 2 ways IMHO:
1) keep decreasing german garrison values. x4 in 1940, x2 in 1941, x1 in 1942, x0,5 in 1943.
2) increase russian production from 1942 more than german, so that the soviets will be able to balance the garrison.

In such a way the best timing for the barbarossa would be in 1941 or 1942, but not later ...


The garrison multiple for Germany does decrease over time, so this does happen in the current scenario.




JAMiAM -> RE: U.S. Entry in WaW33 (5/17/2008 11:23:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweber

quote:

Another rule that should be imported from WiF is different production increase for different powers or a change in garrison ratios. If Germany and japan do not attack Russia and China, even if the garrison between Germany and Russia lowers to 1:1 in 1942 it would be possible for both power to increase their advantege against the West, soviets and china thanks to they production advantage. Germany produces more than Russia so that it will be possible for Berlin to prevent a declaration of war from Moscow. The Axis may wait to attack till 1950 or later when they have used all their manpower and upgraded all their units to the highest research level.
To balance this there should be 2 ways IMHO:
1) keep decreasing german garrison values. x4 in 1940, x2 in 1941, x1 in 1942, x0,5 in 1943.
2) increase russian production from 1942 more than german, so that the soviets will be able to balance the garrison.

In such a way the best timing for the barbarossa would be in 1941 or 1942, but not later ...


The garrison multiple for Germany does decrease over time, so this does happen in the current scenario.

True, but it stops at a 1:1 ratio in 1942, assuming the US isn't in the war. If the Germans want to, they could stuff the border with enough forces to prevent the Russians from declaring war. If the multiple dropped down to 0.5 in 1942, then it would make this a tougher thing to do.



SMK-at-work -> RE: U.S. Entry in WaW33 (5/18/2008 3:34:48 AM)

The "answer" to picking of neutrals is to make them worthless - Spain would ahve been a massive drain on Germany had it entered the war or been invaded - it imported all its oil from the USA and much of its food was imported too - Franco's price for entry was 900,000 tons of oil and 200,000 of food IIRC (amongst other things)- so Spain should simply not give any production to either side.

Same with Turkey.

Same with Greece and Yugoslavia for that matter - they were invaded for strategic reasons, not because they would give a significant boost to Axis production!



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