Some thoughts and questions from a newbie (Full Version)

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IronicFate -> Some thoughts and questions from a newbie (9/30/2000 2:19:00 AM)

Dear All: WILD BILL AND MATRIX GAMES YOU ROCK! Thanks for porting over such a classic game that still amazes me today. I would personally like to thank everyone that has put in countless hours to give the public hours upon hours of wargaming! My hat goes off to EVERYONE that created and PLAYS the game! I am sure this doesn't mean much considering your customer base, but you have made a new die hard customer and avid Matrix Games Support. Kudos! My hat goes off to you! Keep up the exciting and great work. All of us gamers that play your games love ya! This question is directed to Wild Bill or anyone with a noteable understanding of the Landings on Omaha Beach. I make reference to this question because of the Movie "Saving Private Ryan". Personally I think its the greatest war movie I have ever seen. Realistic, gritty and violent. The way war should be seen. As a horrible, bload soaked waste of human life. Onto the question and enough rambling: In the first war scene of the Movie the Americans were to take the Dog Green Sector which was a nasty sector, MG-42's and Mortars (my guess 60mm and above) were mowing down countless infantrymen. As soon as the boats arrived on shore and their doors came down 7.92mm rounds simply cut down troops before they had a chance to exit. And even when they did make it ashore, they were so suppressed and routed, they could not move. Which made them even easier targets for those horrible MG-42's. My question is: How hard would it have been to have Navy Vessels bound the hell out of those MG-42 Positions. Or was that entire MG-42 nest scenario real? It seems hard for me to believe a boat could not have landed a single small tank or ATG onto the shore and it could wipe out the machine guns? I know that may sound like a stupid question considering all the military experts in here but I am trying to learn [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Is my theory of Navy support or a small ATG or tank way off base? Did the Germans have AT weapons waiting just in case? HELP ME OUT WILDBILL! Question Two: I am making a recreation of the beginning scene! It will be my first attempt at making a battle! I would love if others could have input on the design and conception phase! I want to make this a great battle for WaW and would appreciate anyone that would like to help me create it! FYI Matrix Games: Great choice on choosing Saving Private Ryan for most of the weapon sounds [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] I love the sound effects! Keep up the great work all, have fun, be safe! Sincerely yours, Mike AKA: Ironic Fate ------------------ " Even The Fog Of War Cannot Obscure The Horror Of War" [This message has been edited by IronicFate (edited September 29, 2000).]



Fuerte -> (9/30/2000 2:28:00 AM)

I have not seen the movie, just because I heard that it is very violent in the beginning. I hate violence... I will see it someday, though. From TV.



IronicFate -> (9/30/2000 2:32:00 AM)

Trust me on this one, the movie has so much violence, there would be so many cuts, there would only be about 30 minutes on fromt what was left on TV.



Tom Proudfoot -> (9/30/2000 2:35:00 AM)

There are many, many books about D-Day which will be more informative than a quick posting. However, the gist of the Omaha tank troubles was that the amphibious tanks (Sherman DDs) had real trouble making it to shore because of the heavier than expected waves, and most sank. As for pounding the guns with ships, a few destroyers did, upon seeing the mess on the beach, come dangerously close (for the ships) to the beach and blast away. Many of the troops think that this helped save the day. Bill's Omaha scenario shows much of this in action. It is on the second page of scenarios, I believe. As it is hard to hear anything in the beginning of Saving Private Ryan, and I saw it quite a while ago, I don't remember for sure -- but I think they are in Dog Green sector, which was especially nasty. Tom



Fuerte -> (9/30/2000 2:35:00 AM)

Is that a good or bad thing? [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img]



IronicFate -> (9/30/2000 2:38:00 AM)

Yea, I was just going to say I forgot to Mention it was Dog Green Sector... If I have my history correct (Which Is Limited), There MG-42 Nests all over the place....Even as the Germans were changing out their barrels, the American were so suppressed at times they didn't move much.... But then again, I think I would have been just as scared. Thanks for the Info that you gave me [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] And yes, from what I read, the Dog Green Sector was a hell hole.... I can only imagine what it was like, and I don't even like doing that ------------------ " Even The Fog Of War Cannot Obscure The Horror Of It"



Fuerte -> (9/30/2000 2:51:00 AM)

Tom, if you have time to write messages here, then 4.1 must be ready?



Kluckenbill -> (9/30/2000 3:06:00 AM)

Basically, lots of things went wrong on Omaha Beach. The movie portray a Ranger unit that went in with the 29th ID on Omaha. I've seen it twice and although I am a veteran (3rd AD, '76-'80) , I've never been in combat, so I can't vouch for its realism. Both the initial naval and aerial bombardments were relatively innefective due to horrible weather, difficult terrain and excellent defenses. Unfortunately, the invasion timetable was very restricted by the calendar (tides, day length, weather) so Ike almost certainly made the right decision to go, even with the questionable weather, rather than wait. As stated earlier, very few of the Duplex Drive Shermans made it ashore due to the waves and surf. The plan was to take dozens of Shermans ashore in the first wave. Certainly things would have been different if they had made it. Also destroyers did take the defenders under fire from 5 inch guns with reasonable success, but remember, there was a whole division of Germans on Omaha, probably 7-8,000 men, thats a lot of guys to suppress with one or two ships (try that in SPWAW and see how it works.) Unlike the Pacific, where the shore was pounded for days, in Normandy they didn't want to give the Germans too much warning so the bombardment was very short. Also they were worried about mines (we did lose several ships to mines, including at least one destroyer) so the big ships kept far out to sea. Ultimately it was firepower, training, weight of numbers and personal valor that won the battle, at great cost. As an aside, I know a guy who went ashore on Omaha with the 29th ID (it was mostly PA, MD and VA National Guard. I asked him if he saw much action in the war and he said "Not much, I was wounded in the first few minutes on D-Day and evacuated to a hospital in England, I recuperated enough to join my unit just before the battle of the bulge and I was wounded again after about a week in the line and evacuated again. I didn't recover until the end of the war in Europe." That's his idea of "not much" action.



Paul Vebber -> (9/30/2000 3:16:00 AM)

Tom's outstanding work is done - its down to the last minute testing and packaging...



IronicFate -> (9/30/2000 3:22:00 AM)

SEESH! Thanks for the GREAT INFO! Can't get any better than this! ------------------ " Even The Fog Of War Cannot Obscure The Horror Of It"



Pillbox -> (9/30/2000 3:39:00 AM)

Hey bud. I recently purchased "Saving Private Ryan" due to my renewed interest in the War (because of SP:WAW). It is the best war movie I have ever seen and may well be the best _movie_ I have seen. It profoundly changed my perspective on the war and the men who fought for our country. For a definitive history on the D-Day invasion, esp. related to Private Ryan, go to http://normandy.eb.com/. It is a overview of the battle, complete with video, pictures, maps, testimonials, etc from both Germans and Allied troops. Really a great and informative read. Fuerte, the film is very violent, but my wife, who HATES violent movies, was impressed with the movie and very glad she saw it, despite the violence. I reiterate, it changed my perpective completely. I couldn't possibly recommend a movie more than "Saving Private Ryan". You likely won't regret it. Pillbox



Wild Bill -> (9/30/2000 3:56:00 AM)

So many folks answered you Ironic Fate I had no chance to get in the door! First of all, welcome our rowdy group. There are a bunch of great guys here as you hav already seen. I like your enthuiasm. That is contagrious. Bring more of it. Next, allow me to say thanks. I appreciate the very kind words from you. It makes the many hours all worthwhile. Now to the questions at hand. I strongly recommend your check out two scenarios in version 4.0 Do you have it? They are Omaha Beach, a big scenario portraying the landings all along Omaha. Drake did the map. I did the scenario. I think you'll like it and get a good feel for "how it was." Next, be sure and play the other scenario, "The Battle for Ramelle, Saving Private Ryan." You'll find Captain Miller, Sgt. Horvath, Mellish, Rieben, Upham and of course, Pte James Francis Ryan. The trick is to keep him alive and also keep the Germans out of the Alamo. Give it a try. I know you'll love this one. The landing craft were ordered to return immediately to the transport vessels for bringing in more troops. Against most of the emplacements, their weapons were practically useless against the well dug-in Germans. It was guts and grit that took Omaha. And that is what it will take in the scenario. To find these two, Omaha and Ramelle (the top scenario downloaded from the Depot) scroll through your scenario listings till you find them. Ramelle is #85 and Omaha is #135. Let me know how you like 'em, Mike. Thanks for joining us. We're delighted to have you. Behave guys! We have guests! [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



Fuerte -> (9/30/2000 4:04:00 AM)

I'm sure that it is a good movie, Spielberg is after all one of my favourite directors (Raiders of the Lost Ark). But when seeing "Seven" in movies, I was so uneasy with it, so I decided to stay away from cinemas, where I don't have the possibility to do anything else but to watch the movie and the violence. I'm sure that I enjoy watching Saving Private Ryan at my home, from TV or DVD (I plan on getting a DVD player). I also didn't see Blair Witch Project on movies, because one of my friends, who is an expert on horror movies, said that he felt very distressed when he saw it in a movie theater.



Kluckenbill -> (9/30/2000 9:58:00 AM)

Saving Private Ryan is very violent, not for the kiddies. However, I took my daughter to see it at age 15 because I think there is some value in seing how horrible war really is. Maybe Bill Clinton should watch it before he send more troops on some God forsaken peace keeping mission. Nah, he's miss the whole point. Anyway, I have 3 almost grown daughters and I didn't let them watch horror/slasher movies but I approve of movies like SPR and Schinlders List because they have redeeming values and use the violence appropriatly.



NOVA350 -> (9/30/2000 10:27:00 AM)

If you all want to watch a movie that is BETTER than Saving Private Ryan, Check out the THIN RED LINE. It is about a US / Japan altercation...IMHO, it is FAR more realistic than SPR. SPR is alright, but THIN RED LINE seems to be a more realistic view of combat and has some cool scenes that make you think a little bit more about the big picture. I agree with Fuerte about movie violence, but war is violent, and that is why war movies are so violent..(Apocalypse Now). SPWAW is FINALLY up and running on my computer thanks to a post on this site w/ a mech.exe file that somebody offered for download. I am relatively new to this type of game (couldn't ever figure out DESERT FOX for C64!).... SPWAW is A GREAT game (although a tad difficult at first), with GREAT graphics, GREAT sound, and most of all a GREAT community with people helping out each other with the issues involving the game.



Randy -> (9/30/2000 10:57:00 AM)

Hi, as the other posts have said, the landing scene in saving Private Ryan is very realistic. Imagine in the Pacific war the Navy would pound the Japanese for days and the Japanese troops would still be waiting for them in their bunkers. The Marines even had their amphibious assault vehicles (amtracs) with small guns (37mm and 75mm) and the Japanese were still there. The Army didn't use them in Europe because they were designed initially to cross the coral reefs in the Pacific. Enjoy the game, Wild Bill and Matrix have made an awesome game. Semper Fi Randy



Jon Grasham -> (9/30/2000 11:23:00 AM)

Never saw Blair witch project... new a few people that got sick, and had to run to the restroom though.. it got to them THAT bad! Of course, they weren't scared... they got motion sickness from the choppiness of the camera! I can imagine, from the previews that they weren't the only ones. :-) As for SPR, I was in awe when I saw it in the theater... and the next time, repeat multiple times. (got free tickets several times, so figured what the heck). It is a great movie, in many ways... If you haven't seen it, I HIGHLY reccomend it.



Tom Proudfoot -> (9/30/2000 11:39:00 AM)

It is much better in the theatre, though. I saw SPR in a nice, old-style big-screen theatre with updated sound, and the Omaha landing was pretty intense. The entire audience was hunkered low down in their seats because of the quad-speaker bullet zings, something I have never seen before. I wasn't as impressed with Thin Red Line; I think is more of an artistic, internal kind of film that shows you more of what the characters are thinking and how they are affected. The pacing and the soundtrack made it seem very dreamlike, more like a memory than the "you are there" feeling I had during SPR. Tom [This message has been edited by Tom Proudfoot (edited September 30, 2000).]



Cona -> (9/30/2000 12:16:00 PM)

http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/~filmhis/filmreview/ryan.html Comments ? Cona.



Fuerte -> (9/30/2000 2:32:00 PM)

Heh, the dreamlike feeling may be the real one! I remember when I was doing my compulsory military service in coastal artillery, once we were in woods for several days, and had not slept much, at some point the world seemed very dreamlike! [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] I remember firing a bazooka, and carrying ammunition for a AT gun, in half not knowing what I was doing. But I also saw the Thin Red Line, and was not impressed much.



Pillbox -> (9/30/2000 7:03:00 PM)

I referred to "The Thin Red Line" as a "war poetry" movie. It was slower paced in sections, not as bloody as SPR, and had lots of poetic voice-over that confused me more than advanced the plot. Still there were some interesting characters in it and it was interesting to see Guadalcanal depicted on film. It doesn't touch SPR though, with regards to SPR's grittiness and its truthfulnes to squad level tactics and warfare. Heh,.. after this thread I went ahead and watched it again.



Iron Cross -> (9/30/2000 7:49:00 PM)

Mike - AKA: Ironic Fate Just wanted to fill you in concerning the landing shown in the movie "Saving Private Ryan." What was portrayed in the movie was the worst part of the worst beach in the entire D-Day landings. Needless to say, but if all the beaches were like that one, we might not have been able to maintain the foothold we got on June 6, 1944. To begin with, the naval and aerial bombardment of the beach areas fell 3/4 to 2 miles inland, so the bomb craters/shell craters that were supposed to provide some cover were not there. Some of the infantry units landed in the wrong place (right under some of the bunkers shown on the movie and were literally chewed to pieces). To top it off, most of the DD (amphibious tanks) either landed in the wrong zone or sank in the heavy swells off of the beach. The unit that was supposedly defending the beach was the 716th infantry division, an untried unit that was full of "walking wounded" and foreign conscripts. They were there, but the veteran 352nd infantry division, fresh off of the Russian front, had arrived just before the invasion, so they did not break and run as the allied planners had thought they would. There were designated destroyers for close-in fire support, but most of the shore party and naval gunfire radios were lost in the assault waves. The destroyers had no terminal control for fire support and couldn't fire without hitting our own troops. What was shown in the movie was that well trained and led men can perform heroically even in the worst of situations. As a U.S. Marine officer, "Saving Private Ryan" is an excellent example of why we do not attempt opposed amphibious landings any more. If you think that "Saving Private Ryan" was bloody and screwed up, do some reading about the USMC assault in 1943 against Tarawa (Betio) in the Pacific. Over 1,100 dead, 3,000 wounded in 76 hours. I pray we never have to ask men to exhibit that kind of courage again, but knowing human nature, we most likely will. If you have any other questions concerning amphibious assaults, just post them and I will help you with them. Iron Cross Wenn Alles Bruders Es Schweigen



Fuerte -> (9/30/2000 10:19:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Cona: http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/~filmhis/filmreview/ryan.html
I read the article. So Wild Bill's Ramelle scenario is very unrealistic. The stupid AI matches the stupid Germans well, that's why the scenario works so well. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] SPWAW could also be more realistic with infantry: "While it seems logical that infantry would fire their weapons, the US Army discovered that during the fighting in France, only 15% of the troops actually fired their rifles in any given battle. Nerves and fear played a role in producing this low number, but many American troops were also reticent to fire their rifles because American gunpowder was of poor quality and instantly revealed the position of anyone who fired their weapon." 15%, unbelievable.



Peregrine Falcon -> (9/30/2000 10:40:00 PM)

I agree - 100% [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] SPR is nice - But far from excellent...
quote:

Originally posted by Cona: http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/~filmhis/filmreview/ryan.html Comments ? Cona.



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