Hey Tanker Veterans - is this possible? (Full Version)

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Polrbear -> Hey Tanker Veterans - is this possible? (9/30/2000 7:32:00 AM)

Looking for real tanker advice. "Which WW2 tanks types, given a veteran crew and unbuttoned status, are capable of pivoting 60% in 12 seconds and getting off a kill first shot after reversing 30 feet from an out of sight position in falling snow? What is the probability that an American Tank Destroyer achieves this result"?



Leibstandarte -> (9/30/2000 7:39:00 AM)

I'm not a WWII tanker but not very likely under those circumstances. This is not to say impossible. A well trained tank crew can do ANYTHING they set their mind to, just ask a tanker and they will tell you. ------------------ Cavalry Trooper (8th US) and Grandson of a Leibstandarte Tanker.



Venger -> (9/30/2000 8:16:00 AM)

Apparently 100% in your current game I presume... Venger



DoubleDeuce -> (9/30/2000 8:35:00 AM)

I have been on tanks from M48A5's through M1A1's and have seen Tankers hit things in situations you think to yourself "No Way!" Then again I've seen tank crews pump round after round down range and never hit a thing. Same with M3 Bradleys. IMHO those pulling the triggers either have a knack for it, or they don't. Of course practice helps, with some more than others. ------------------ "Double Deuce on the Loose"



Leibstandarte -> (9/30/2000 8:53:00 AM)

As far as Bradley's are concerned they are lucky to hit anything that is farther than a football field. Just Kidding to all you Grunts out there. "Infantry may very well be the Queen of the battlefield, but ARMOR is the chastity belt that keeps the b--ch in line" ------------------ Cavalry Trooper (8th US) and Grandson of a Leibstandarte Tanker.



Paul Vebber -> (9/30/2000 8:55:00 AM)

Sounds like you're playing Combat Mission :-) I take the time clock with a grain of salt...if you take it literally you get lots of really strange results. Trying to track individual seconds ticking off is problematic to say the least. [This message has been edited by Paul Vebber (edited September 29, 2000).]



Wild Bill -> (9/30/2000 9:15:00 AM)

I'm not a tanker but after reading hundreds of books on WW2 - Post WW2 including dozens about tank experiences I have learned, if what I have read is true, that anything is possible in any given situation. Not common, but possible. Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



Polrbear -> (9/30/2000 9:19:00 AM)

That's correct Paul. The Mad Minute scenario as the Germans. American TDs are uncanny in accuracy - 5 kills in 6 shots despite little acquistion time and "very slow' turrent rating. Makes me wonder if there isn't an American bias in the game. I'm not slaming CM, as its great in other aspects. Just wondered what the tried and true SPWAW guys thought about this question.



Fuerte -> (9/30/2000 2:06:00 PM)

Heh, I also "saw" the situation in CM. I have also wondered sometimes when my tank has been blown up, if that would have happened in real life. But I hope that it is the same for both players.



Warhorse -> (9/30/2000 7:52:00 PM)

I sometimes like to break out Panzer Commander, just to get a 'sort of' feel for how things are in armored combat. Even crawling along cross country at 12 mph, it is hard to hit a stationary, let alone moving target!! But then sometimes, you make a snap shot, and do it!! It's like anything I suppose, IT CAN HAPPEN;-) ------------------ Mike Amos Meine Ehre Heisst Treue



Paul Vebber -> (9/30/2000 10:30:00 PM)

No game can "get it right" they just try in dofferent ways to "give a feel for it". I play Panzer Comander when I want one "feel", Combat Mission for another, and SPWaW for a third. All require a "willing suspension of disbelief" that works better for different people in different situations and moods. Choice is good :-)



Wild Bill -> (10/1/2000 4:00:00 AM)

Despite its lack of infantry, for some good pure WW2 tank fighting from the turret, it is a classic in my mind. Simple, easy to understand, with nice 3D graphics, I've always loved the game...WB ================== ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



Greg McCarty -> (10/1/2000 4:26:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Polrbear: Looking for real tanker advice. "Which WW2 tanks types, given a veteran crew and unbuttoned status, are capable of pivoting 60% in 12 seconds and getting off a kill first shot after reversing 30 feet from an out of sight position in falling snow? What is the probability that an American Tank Destroyer achieves this result"?
Well, if any vehicle was capable of this sort of thing, given an experienced crew it was probably the (m18?) Hellcat. It was fast (55mph) on road, had a power driven turret, and was very low and agile. It had a decent high velocity 76mm gun. If any vehicle was capable of such a thing, it might be this one. Greg.



Bulldog61 -> (10/1/2000 5:23:00 AM)

Don't no about timing in ww2 tanks. I remember the triple threat scenario while in Germany 78-81. Your tank (in M60A1 Rise Passives at the time) started in turret defilaide you had 10 seconond to close (finish) the engagement on the tanks (T-62 shilouette) at 2000 meters. Time started when you fired the first round or the spocket stopped turning in the firing position. So, in reference to the initial question a well trained crew could probablty accomplish it. Lets not forget how much more your capable of when the adrenaline is flowing! Mike



Kluckenbill -> (10/1/2000 11:42:00 AM)

I agree with Mike. I commanded M60A1s in 1976/77 with no electronic anything. We could regularly hit two targets at 2000+ meters in 10-12 seconds. However we had a few advantages over the old Hellcats, such as sabot with its very flat trajectory, a reasonably good stabilization system that kept the target in view, a coincidence range finder (although for the Hellcat out to 1000 meters or so that should'nt matter much.) Unlike the WW2 Hellcat I'm afraid we weren't an elite crew.



Mike Oshiki -> (10/6/2000 7:02:00 AM)

Ditto the above, plus the luck factor. Seems that the CVC mikes would always go out on Table VIII, the new driver would slam on the brakes too hard vs. the times that the loader hot seated a 105 round and your two shots were off before the dust settled from the first... But as long as the heater was working, life was never TOO bad...



Bulldog61 -> (10/6/2000 7:16:00 AM)

Not to mention the heater exhuast was great for heating the water in your canteen cup for instant coffee!



Mike Oshiki -> (10/6/2000 10:46:00 PM)

Yes... diesel flavor, a classic from General Foods International Coffees, served in armored units at sites around the world from Graf 301 to the sands of the Middle East, making tankers smile (and stay awake) for years...



Kluckenbill -> (10/6/2000 11:24:00 PM)

Working heaters? Wow, you guys had it good. Seriously, I was never able to get more than one or two working heater at a time for my five tanks (thank you Jimmy Carter.) During winter maneuvers at Wildflecken I used to rotate troops through the tanks with the working heaters so they could be warm for at least an hour or two per night. The troops were only partly joking in 1979 when they said the biggest improvement of the M60A3 over the M60A1 was that the heaters worked (since they were new.) I've got to agree about the diesel smell. I've been a lowly civilian for 20 years now but it all comes back to me every time a bus drives bye.



Leibstandarte -> (10/6/2000 11:34:00 PM)

Nothing better than a working heater. The funny thing about it is that will all the improvements in the tanks to date (last I was on was a SEP) it's still the same damn leaky heater! Only difference now is it has a "computer" controlled start. Wonder how much the Army paid for that? ------------------ Cavalry Trooper (8th US) and Grandson of a Leibstandarte Tanker.



Nikademus -> (10/7/2000 12:03:00 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wild Bill: [B]Despite its lack of infantry, for some good pure WW2 tank fighting from the turret, it is a classic in my mind. Simple, easy to understand, with nice 3D graphics, I've always loved the game...WB ================== and now thanks to a new HD i can load the dang thing back in (whoo hoo) of course now i'll have to go thru the stat files and re-adjust half of em again to get them closer to realistic armor settings (DOH) but then again there's nothing like running full tilt in a BT-7 yee haaaaaaaaaaaaaa



Mike Oshiki -> (10/7/2000 12:36:00 AM)

Seems like the best PSG's were the ones who had their stash of ignitors (the key piece in the puzzle of the working heaters). Of course, it always helps to befriend the PLL clerk...



DoubleDeuce -> (10/7/2000 2:22:00 AM)

Whenever going to the field or gunnery my CVC Bag always had required 2 firing pins and 2 heater ignitors. I remember one winter in Kansas I even had an brand new heater "still in the foam package" in my bustle rack. Always made sure we left a guard on the tank, even when breaking for chow or an Op Order. Shame you can't even trust your wingman or the rest of the platoon :-) ------------------ "Double Deuce on the Loose"



reaper2100 -> (10/7/2000 2:38:00 AM)

I was in the 3/8 in Mainz. We wished we had heaters. Our heater was pulling behind an M1 and heating our whole 113 from the exhaust! The sides of the 113 would actually get hot to the touch. Really handy on those cold Graf and BH nights.



Kluckenbill -> (10/7/2000 2:58:00 AM)

Unfortunately, on the M60's nothing got hot. The engine was an air cooled deisel buried under the armored deck and at idle the exhaust was barely warm, although it would give you a good insulating coat of grime. I thought I had it made when I became Support Platoon Leader and got my very own Jeep (M151 rollover special) with a lap blanket, working heater and an engine just perfect for cooking C-Rationis.



Pack Rat -> (10/7/2000 11:11:00 AM)

Heater? They had heaters? We dug a hole in the sand, lit a fire and then buried the coals and slept on them. C rats (Korea vintage in 1970) were put on top of an ammo box that had a fire in it. They probably had sent the heaters to Viet Nam. ------------------ Good hunting, Pack Rat



Wild Bill -> (10/7/2000 11:57:00 AM)

Tankers and grunts! You guys have got to be the most inventive people in the world! [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



Mike Oshiki -> (10/8/2000 6:39:00 AM)

Yes, the speed was nice. Yes, the driver had an instant bed. Yes, (with the IP and beyond) you had more bustle rack stowage than ever before. But the single greatest thing (from a non-tactical, field-craft perspective) about the M-1 over the M-60 was the heat of the turbine exhaust. You had an instant heater (just ask the aggressive drivers that tailgated the M-1's when they first rolled out). The crunchies never loved us more. What made it even more useful was when they finally made a heat shield so that you could tow another M-1 without melting it. The heat shield vents the exhaust straight up. With a little re-bar and a torch, you could make a rack that would allow you to heat water in containers of varying sizes, from a .50 cal ammo can to a 5-gallon water can (metal, of course). I got my first hot shower from an aussie bucket after that...



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