RE: Canal ? Not Guadal the other one.. (Full Version)

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panda124c -> RE: Canal ? Not Guadal the other one.. (6/6/2008 8:08:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

quote:

Remember all you need to do is warp a gate, so it don't work quite correctly.


They're rebar-concrete, and 9 meters thick.

And the Ruhr dams are a lot thicker.

All I'm saying is, nothing is invincible, and since the US considered the Panama Canal to be a very valuable resource there would be forces in place to protect it, particularly in war time.

I'd hate to be the guy who had to hand crank those puppies open or closed. [:D]



crashTX -> RE: Canal ? Not Guadal the other one.. (6/6/2008 8:42:39 PM)

There was a show about the large I type subs with hangars. In 1945 they got as far as just past the Hawaiian Island before being recalled to participate in suicide attacks at Okinawa.

Anyways the plan was to launch the 5 planes the sub carried... and then using torpedos... attack the locks on the Atlantic side. Why that side you ask? Apparently not only the locks would be destroyed... more importantly.... the water would drain out of the Gatun lakes... and thus even after repairing the locks... you had to refill the lakes before the canal could be used again. 

An attack like this I believe would disable the canal for a year.




mikemike -> RE: Canal ? Not Guadal the other one.. (6/6/2008 8:54:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Bywater had a better idea than destroying the locks by floatplane or submarine attack. He had the Japs load a freighter to the gunvales with explosives, and then sent it through the canal before war broke out, detonating in the middle and causing big landslides to block the waterway.


There is a story by C.S.Forester (Hornblower) in much the same vein. IIRC (I don't have that collection of stories at hand) the malefactor was a German ship posing as Swedish, loaded with iron ore; the plan was to enter a lock, fire torpedos from concealed underwater tubes into the lock gates, and blow the bottom out of the ship, thus creating a giant heap of scrap in the lock chamber. The plan was foiled by an attentive British DEMS gunner who recognized German-style shoes on the feet of one of the supposed Swedes. The attack was timed to coincide with the PH attack.

I've seen a TV documentary about the canal a short time ago; they showed how a lock gate leaf was swapped by a large floating crane, and as far as I am concerned, the most vulnerable spot of a gate would be the upper pivot point (the lower pivot is just a fireplug-shaped lump of steel, maybe three feet in diameter, concreted into the floor of the lock chamber - looked pretty impervious to anything short of a nuclear device) - but I don't think this would be an easy matter. Causing a landslide in the Culebra Cut would be feasible, too, but this happens frequently, anyway, so the Canal Authority is equipped to clear that kind of obstruction as quickly as possible. Most damaging would be to blow up the Gatun Dam which would drain the Gatun Lake and b*gger up the water supply for several months after the dam was closed again, and that without taking into consideration the damage the resulting flood wave would do to the Canal infrastructure. But as far as I know, the Gatun Dam is essentially a large earth dike, and pretty resistant to blasting. To sum up, you could probably close the Canal for months if only you could get maybe 10 ktons of TNT in the right place. Piece of cake, obviously.



Feinder -> RE: Canal ? Not Guadal the other one.. (6/6/2008 9:53:30 PM)

quote:

Anyways the plan was to launch the 5 planes the sub carried... and then using torpedos... attack the locks on the Atlantic side. Why that side you ask? Apparently not only the locks would be destroyed... more importantly.... the water would drain out of the Gatun lakes... and thus even after repairing the locks... you had to refill the lakes before the canal could be used again. 


1.  One reason to attack the Atlantic side vs. the Pacific is that the locks are smaller on the Atlantic side (altho it might just be the practical difference between them being "dang that thing's big" and "dats one big mofo").

2.  It seems that blowing the locks to the Atlantic -and- blowing the locks to the center lake would be that much more effort.  Knocking out one lock is going to be tough with 5 planes (even if you can accomplish it), and now you've only got 2 planes on a lock and 3 on another - that's going to make it that much harder to disable.



Hornblower -> RE: Canal ? Not Guadal the other one.. (6/8/2008 1:20:53 AM)

I didn't know they were aiming for the atlantic side, and it makes sence to attack the "down-hill side" - thanks for the info



Twotribes -> RE: Canal ? Not Guadal the other one.. (6/8/2008 3:10:01 AM)

If the Japanese get the option does that mean the allied player gets all the assets assigned to Panama Canal Zone and areas?



Feinder -> RE: Canal ? Not Guadal the other one.. (6/8/2008 5:49:08 AM)

I know in CHS at start in Panama there is:

310 air support (over 3 bases)
3 RCT
Cbt Eng Rgt
4 AAA Rgt
Panama CD w/ 56 large guns

Within one month
2 RCT

Within two months
2 RCT
1 Arm Btn
2 AAA Rgt
5 Eng Rgt

Within three months
1 Arm Btn

So, can you capture Panma?  Sure.  I don't know what the historical OB is, but the CHS team seems to have done a good job of determining at least the starting OB of most of the units.  You'd need to go as early as possible, because for the first three months, it's steady build up.

I'm not sure if capturing Panama would break something tho.  Most of US reinforcments arrive in Panama, and if it's captured, it might wonker up their ability to arrive at all.

-F-



hvymtl13 -> RE: Canal ? Not Guadal the other one.. (6/8/2008 9:13:30 PM)

Well I have prob 20 Seebea units in Frisco that are aching for something to fix. I would take a 7 to 1 trade for Combat units. :)
Either way they will fix the locks up np with that Seabee Can-Do attitude. :D



Hornblower -> RE: Canal ? Not Guadal the other one.. (6/9/2008 7:00:15 AM)

So its safe to assume that there is nothing built into AE to allow an attack – OF ANY KIND – on the locks ?



Andrew Brown -> RE: Canal ? Not Guadal the other one.. (6/9/2008 7:53:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hornblower

So its safe to assume that there is nothing built into AE to allow an attack – OF ANY KIND – on the locks ?


That is right. There is no provision in AE for this.

Andrew



bradfordkay -> RE: Canal ? Not Guadal the other one.. (6/9/2008 6:46:22 PM)

Well... the Japanese can invade and capture the canal...



Andrew Brown -> RE: Canal ? Not Guadal the other one.. (6/10/2008 2:09:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Well... the Japanese can invade and capture the canal...


Actually in AE this won't be possible either. The Canal is in an "off map" area, and it was decided early on that allowing movement/combat between both sides in these areas would be too complex to add to the game, so use of the "off-map" areas is Allied only.

Andrew



bradfordkay -> RE: Canal ? Not Guadal the other one.. (6/10/2008 9:01:47 AM)

Cool, that means I won't have to worry about I-boats catching my new carriers in the narrow channel...



Hornblower -> RE: Canal ? Not Guadal the other one.. (6/12/2008 7:18:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown


quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Well... the Japanese can invade and capture the canal...


Actually in AE this won't be possible either. The Canal is in an "off map" area, and it was decided early on that allowing movement/combat between both sides in these areas would be too complex to add to the game, so use of the "off-map" areas is Allied only.

Andrew


That answers my question, thanks...



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