Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? (Full Version)

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Cavalry Corp -> Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? (6/10/2008 6:54:38 PM)

OK
So all CV are in play its stock PBEM , I am thinking as Japs to look for a moment to fight the allies BY Dec I will have the Unryu and two more CVE.

So I am waiting for all units to get the Zeke firtsly

how much better is the Jill and Judy vis Kate and Val ??

What exp level do I need to stand a chance , I think the allied level is nt so high as they have lost a lot of CV planes

single CV TF on the basis of my idea below?

I had an idea to set all CAP at 90% plus all the LRCAP I can find ( as I will only fight near a base ) and stand down the bombers and take the allied attack , any thoughts on this idea could it work?

Michael



okami -> RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? (6/10/2008 7:09:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

OK
So all CV are in play its stock PBEM , I am thinking as Japs to look for a moment to fight the allies BY Dec I will have the Unryu and two more CVE.

So I am waiting for all units to get the Zeke firtsly

how much better is the Jill and Judy vis Kate and Val ??

What exp level do I need to stand a chance , I think the allied level is nt so high as they have lost a lot of CV planes

single CV TF on the basis of my idea below?

I had an idea to set all CAP at 90% plus all the LRCAP I can find ( as I will only fight near a base ) and stand down the bombers and take the allied attack , any thoughts on this idea could it work?

Michael

If you are going to standdown the bombers then take them off the carriers. No use in losing them when some of your carriers get sunk.



Cavalry Corp -> RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? (6/10/2008 7:19:20 PM)

Valid point but I need them for the return strike do I not ? with 90% escorts
Maybe I BAIT the allies with one CV one hex in advance o the main body - does hat work , ever ? Its historica I think .

M



okami -> RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? (6/10/2008 7:22:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

Valid point but I need them for the return strike do I not ? with 90% escorts
Maybe I BAIT the allies with one CV one hex in advance o the main body - does hat work , ever ? Its historica I think .

M

With only 10% of your fighters for escort, you would lose almost all of your bombers and score no hits. Let him attack, assess the damage, transfer bombers to carriers and give chase. Reset cap to 30% and attack.



niceguy2005 -> RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? (6/10/2008 7:58:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

OK
So all CV are in play its stock PBEM , I am thinking as Japs to look for a moment to fight the allies BY Dec I will have the Unryu and two more CVE.

So I am waiting for all units to get the Zeke firtsly

how much better is the Jill and Judy vis Kate and Val ??

What exp level do I need to stand a chance , I think the allied level is nt so high as they have lost a lot of CV planes

single CV TF on the basis of my idea below?

I had an idea to set all CAP at 90% plus all the LRCAP I can find ( as I will only fight near a base ) and stand down the bombers and take the allied attack , any thoughts on this idea could it work?

Michael

I don't think Jill and Judy are much of a real improvement...don't they carry the same ordinance? That's what really counts IMO as any bomber is just going to be fodder to a Hellcat.

Zeke is definitely an improvement.

I personally don't like the CAP 90% tactic. CVs are an offensive weapon and in a campaign such as this wouldn't be used otherwise.

Further, I think CV battles are like fencing, you have to go on the attack to win. Unless you know your opponent to be wildly aggressive, going on the defense first opens yourself up to a wild or lucky strike. Better to attack as soon as you have a chance and hope that you get a wild or lucky strike.

Fight within close range of a base if possible and not only include LRCAP, but also LB TB. That could be the difference maker.



niceguy2005 -> RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? (6/10/2008 8:00:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: okami


quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

Valid point but I need them for the return strike do I not ? with 90% escorts
Maybe I BAIT the allies with one CV one hex in advance o the main body - does hat work , ever ? Its historica I think .

M

With only 10% of your fighters for escort, you would lose almost all of your bombers and score no hits. Let him attack, assess the damage, transfer bombers to carriers and give chase. Reset cap to 30% and attack.

If he runs with 40%-50% escort of Hellcats with the entire 12/43 fleet I don't think you're CAP will stand a chance.



herwin -> RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? (6/10/2008 8:14:05 PM)

If you attacked Pearl, it's basically down-hill from here. Have fun.

If you didn't, a good hard punch in the nose at this point would have brought America to the conference table.



Shark7 -> RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? (6/10/2008 9:03:36 PM)

Personally, I find the following is the best way to deal with allied Carriers during the early war years...much less of my own high VP equipment at risk. [:D]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 63,95

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 21
G3M2 Nell x 23

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 17

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 6 destroyed, 1 damaged
G3M2 Nell: 3 destroyed, 17 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat: 4 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied Ships
CA Louisville, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CA Chicago, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CV Yorktown, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CA Portland, Torpedo hits 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 63,95

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 13
G3M2 Nell x 6

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
G3M2 Nell: 1 destroyed, 4 damaged


Allied Ships
CA Portland
CV Yorktown, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage



John 3rd -> RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? (6/10/2008 9:56:52 PM)

This very question has been raging in my AAR 'Forlorn Hopes.'  Start reading about Page 20 of it and you can see the discussion that has raged about this topic.

Good Luck from one who is in the same boat!



Cavalry Corp -> RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? (6/10/2008 10:10:51 PM)

ok thanks I will take a look
M



Q-Ball -> RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? (6/10/2008 10:29:54 PM)

I am in late '43 as Japan, and been trolling for ideas for months. I am in the same boat, except he is down 6 CV, 5 CVE, and I am down 3 CV, 1 CVL.

I have seen/been given advice around the following:

1. Fight within range of your LBA. Do not fight within range of HIS LBA. As Japan, you should be able to get "Home Court Advantage" in '43.
2. Speed is not as important as it is early in war. As such, you can: A) Mix in at least 1 BB in every CV TF to soak attacks. Use the old 14in BBs if you like. B) Use the CVE's; load each with a TB Daitai or Zeke Daitai.
3. Split CV's into multiple TF's, mix in BB's, etc.
4. Set CAP to no more than 50%; you need the escorts to punch through his CAP.
5. Accept that you will suffer enormous pilot losses, and will lose ships in the exchange.

If you have every CV, and you have accelerated everything, that is ALOT of aircraft you can put up, I would estimate 1000 to 1100 aircraft. Even at 50% CAP, you would still have maybe 200 Zekes on CAP.



niceguy2005 -> RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? (6/11/2008 1:21:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

If you attacked Pearl, it's basically down-hill from here. Have fun.

If you didn't, a good hard punch in the nose at this point would have brought America to the conference table.

Seems every opponent the US has ever had has said a good stinging defeat will make America surrender...it's never happened.



herwin -> RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? (6/11/2008 1:47:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005


quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

If you attacked Pearl, it's basically down-hill from here. Have fun.

If you didn't, a good hard punch in the nose at this point would have brought America to the conference table.

Seems every opponent the US has ever had has said a good stinging defeat will make America surrender...it's never happened.


Read your American history carefully. I said nothing about a surrender--I was discussing the conditions under which America might have been willing to talk with Japan. I was also assuming Hitler would have made the mistake he made historically. Suppose there had been no surprise attack on Hawaii, Japan had taken a defensive stance against the Pacific Fleet, and there had been a major reverse at the beginning of War Plan Orange offensive. At a minimum, Washington would have gone on the strategic defensive in the Pacific to concentrate on Germany, and it is quite possible the Pacific War would have come to a close with Japan being allowed to keep a few of its goals while returning the American and possibly British possessions. Remember, the Western Allies were happy to give Eastern Europe to the Soviets in return for staying in the war against Germany. Why not give the NEI to Japan in return for cobelligerancy against Germany? Italy switched sides on a similar basis.



sventhebold -> RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? (6/11/2008 4:35:40 AM)

Sad but true my grandfather was Estonian and in 1939 everyone was watching Hitler as he ran through Poland.
But nobody said anything about "Uncle Joe" Stalin as he invaded the Baltic states, In Tallin(the capitol) of Estonia the Soviet soldiers rounded up the mayor, the city council, bankers anyone of importance took them out to a
field and shot them. Everyone above the age of 16 was "enlisted" into the Army at gunpoint. If you didnt agree
you were shot also and your family imprisoned. He was a mechanic(i think) and recieved favorable treatment and allowed to go home on leave from time to time. Thus my mother was born but in a wild turn of fate he was captured by the Nazis when his unit was overrun. While being transported on a prison train back to the fatherland American bombers blasted the train and he was killed. My grandma always said thet germans treated them better than the russians did. NOT to make a comparison of what really happened but that was what her persective was. As the war progressed and the russians came back the were exterminating whole villages who were suspected of helping the germans. My grandmother walked from Estonia to central Germany to stay ahead of the russians and all this with a small infant(my mother). Sad to say but some compromises in the name of "peace" should never be made. Period.



spence -> RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? (6/11/2008 7:57:23 AM)

quote:

Read your American history carefully. I said nothing about a surrender--I was discussing the conditions under which America might have been willing to talk with Japan. I was also assuming Hitler would have made the mistake he made historically. Suppose there had been no surprise attack on Hawaii, Japan had taken a defensive stance against the Pacific Fleet, and there had been a major reverse at the beginning of War Plan Orange offensive. At a minimum, Washington would have gone on the strategic defensive in the Pacific to concentrate on Germany, and it is quite possible the Pacific War would have come to a close with Japan being allowed to keep a few of its goals while returning the American and possibly British possessions. Remember, the Western Allies were happy to give Eastern Europe to the Soviets in return for staying in the war against Germany. Why not give the NEI to Japan in return for cobelligerancy against Germany? Italy switched sides on a similar basis.



What you are talking about has nothing to do with reading ANY history at all. You're just inventing "history" to "prove" your position. I suggest you start again with some connection to what really happened in the 1940s.





castor troy -> RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? (6/11/2008 9:27:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005


quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

If you attacked Pearl, it's basically down-hill from here. Have fun.

If you didn't, a good hard punch in the nose at this point would have brought America to the conference table.

Seems every opponent the US has ever had has said a good stinging defeat will make America surrender...it's never happened.



the Soviets didnīt surrender in Afghanistan either I guess as otherwise Afghanistan would be the biggest country in the world now. Nor did the Americans surrender to the North Vietnamese, oh forgot, they won the war. I donīt want to offend any vets or people in active duty, just to make sure my words arenīt misunderstood. I donīt want to make it a political thread either. It doesnīt always need a surrender if you know what I mean.



okami -> RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? (6/11/2008 10:30:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005


quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

If you attacked Pearl, it's basically down-hill from here. Have fun.

If you didn't, a good hard punch in the nose at this point would have brought America to the conference table.

Seems every opponent the US has ever had has said a good stinging defeat will make America surrender...it's never happened.

Not one to bash Americans but TET, it may have taken another 4 years but the war was lost in Feb of 68. Even though there were indications that the VC had been all but destroyed, the American public(not the military) saw it as a defeat.



herwin -> RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? (6/11/2008 10:37:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

Read your American history carefully. I said nothing about a surrender--I was discussing the conditions under which America might have been willing to talk with Japan. I was also assuming Hitler would have made the mistake he made historically. Suppose there had been no surprise attack on Hawaii, Japan had taken a defensive stance against the Pacific Fleet, and there had been a major reverse at the beginning of War Plan Orange offensive. At a minimum, Washington would have gone on the strategic defensive in the Pacific to concentrate on Germany, and it is quite possible the Pacific War would have come to a close with Japan being allowed to keep a few of its goals while returning the American and possibly British possessions. Remember, the Western Allies were happy to give Eastern Europe to the Soviets in return for staying in the war against Germany. Why not give the NEI to Japan in return for cobelligerancy against Germany? Italy switched sides on a similar basis.



What you are talking about has nothing to do with reading ANY history at all. You're just inventing "history" to "prove" your position. I suggest you start again with some connection to what really happened in the 1940s.





See WPPac-46 and WPL-46 (Rainbow Five). This called for a defensive strategy in the Pacific and the Far East. The offensive phase in the Pacific was envisioned as capturing Eniwetok during the second or third year (hopefully during the latter half of the first year) and Truk at some indefinite date thereafter (no sooner than the second year). After two to five years of defensive operations and development of Truk, the offensive would move to the Philippines. Finally, five to ten years after the outbreak of war, a close blockade of Japan would be mounted from bases in the Ryukyus.

If Japan hadn't burnt its bridges behind it with the Pearl Harbour attack, we would have been willing to talk by the second or third year of stalemate.



herwin -> RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? (6/11/2008 10:41:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005


quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

If you attacked Pearl, it's basically down-hill from here. Have fun.

If you didn't, a good hard punch in the nose at this point would have brought America to the conference table.

Seems every opponent the US has ever had has said a good stinging defeat will make America surrender...it's never happened.



the Soviets didnīt surrender in Afghanistan either I guess as otherwise Afghanistan would be the biggest country in the world now. Nor did the Americans surrender to the North Vietnamese, oh forgot, they won the war. I donīt want to offend any vets or people in active duty, just to make sure my words arenīt misunderstood. I donīt want to make it a political thread either. It doesnīt always need a surrender if you know what I mean.


Sorry about pulling politics into this. Let's adjourn to the local pub.



herwin -> RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? (6/11/2008 10:42:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: okami


quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005


quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

If you attacked Pearl, it's basically down-hill from here. Have fun.

If you didn't, a good hard punch in the nose at this point would have brought America to the conference table.

Seems every opponent the US has ever had has said a good stinging defeat will make America surrender...it's never happened.

Not one to bash Americans but TET, it may have taken another 4 years but the war was lost in Feb of 68. Even though there were indications that the VC had been all but destroyed, the American public(not the military) saw it as a defeat.


There's a motion to adjourn to the local pub on the floor. Ayes? Nays? Adjourned!



Shark7 -> RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? (6/11/2008 6:35:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I am in late '43 as Japan, and been trolling for ideas for months. I am in the same boat, except he is down 6 CV, 5 CVE, and I am down 3 CV, 1 CVL.

I have seen/been given advice around the following:

1. Fight within range of your LBA. Do not fight within range of HIS LBA. As Japan, you should be able to get "Home Court Advantage" in '43.
2. Speed is not as important as it is early in war. As such, you can: A) Mix in at least 1 BB in every CV TF to soak attacks. Use the old 14in BBs if you like. B) Use the CVE's; load each with a TB Daitai or Zeke Daitai.
3. Split CV's into multiple TF's, mix in BB's, etc.
4. Set CAP to no more than 50%; you need the escorts to punch through his CAP.
5. Accept that you will suffer enormous pilot losses, and will lose ships in the exchange.

If you have every CV, and you have accelerated everything, that is ALOT of aircraft you can put up, I would estimate 1000 to 1100 aircraft. Even at 50% CAP, you would still have maybe 200 Zekes on CAP.



Back on topic.

I've put some thought into this, the main thing is that you need to save your LBA for the raid, and definately make the allies fight on your terms.

The one thing no one has mentioned is setting up a wolf-pack to attack the allied CVs on there way to where you want to fight. An effective sub screen 6-10 hexes from your desired battlespace on the most likely path of the allied strike force might be beneficial. one or two successful sub strikes can really ruin the coordination (and if they hit right even sink a ship or two) of the allied force. Slowing down 1 carrier just a bit would put the odds less in the allies favor, as there wouldn't be as large an uber cap over the main fleet.

Just some random thoughts on the matter.



crsutton -> RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? (6/11/2008 7:00:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin


quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005


quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

If you attacked Pearl, it's basically down-hill from here. Have fun.

If you didn't, a good hard punch in the nose at this point would have brought America to the conference table.

Seems every opponent the US has ever had has said a good stinging defeat will make America surrender...it's never happened.


Read your American history carefully. I said nothing about a surrender--I was discussing the conditions under which America might have been willing to talk with Japan. I was also assuming Hitler would have made the mistake he made historically. Suppose there had been no surprise attack on Hawaii, Japan had taken a defensive stance against the Pacific Fleet, and there had been a major reverse at the beginning of War Plan Orange offensive. At a minimum, Washington would have gone on the strategic defensive in the Pacific to concentrate on Germany, and it is quite possible the Pacific War would have come to a close with Japan being allowed to keep a few of its goals while returning the American and possibly British possessions. Remember, the Western Allies were happy to give Eastern Europe to the Soviets in return for staying in the war against Germany. Why not give the NEI to Japan in return for cobelligerancy against Germany? Italy switched sides on a similar basis.


Nawh...not a chance. The war was just as much racial as political or territorial-especially after Pearl Harbor. I don't think there is anyway that Americans would have accepted anything but victory. Maybe a short term truce but eventually the war would have continued and the American economy would have prevailed. Any sort of Japanese position of strength in Asia would have been unacceptable for a variety of reasons.

But....we have hijacked this thread. Sorry.

Late 1943, I don't think KB can win given that both sides have all their carriers. The moment has passed. You should have picked the fight a lot earlier. No amount of tactical acumen will make up for the hellcats and helldivers. Not to mention, the massive AA values of the Allied ships.

Oh you might pick off a few Allied carriers but it will cost you all your top pilots and most of your carriers. It is a fight that the Americans should be spoiling for.





castor troy -> RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? (6/11/2008 8:01:22 PM)

Honda wiped out Ravers carriers in late?? 43...



okami -> RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? (6/11/2008 8:31:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Late 1943, I don't think KB can win given that both sides have all their carriers. The moment has passed. You should have picked the fight a lot earlier. No amount of tactical acumen will make up for the hellcats and helldivers. Not to mention, the massive AA values of the Allied ships.

Oh you might pick off a few Allied carriers but it will cost you all your top pilots and most of your carriers. It is a fight that the Americans should be spoiling for.




Actually it is also a fight that the Japanese should be spoiling for. Victory is a relative term. In Witp it can mean many things. After mid 43 as the Japanese player you are going to lose all of your navy at some point or leave them in port which is the same thing. Getting something for your assets is victory. Doing better than historical is the gauge. If you can sink more than was sunk and if you can slow down the allied advance then you can claim a small victory in the hard times ahead. It is all about attitude. We Japanese players know we are going to lose(short of playing gamey) the idea is to lose hard and die well. In so doing lies the only victory that is possible.



crsutton -> RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? (6/11/2008 8:47:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: okami


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Late 1943, I don't think KB can win given that both sides have all their carriers. The moment has passed. You should have picked the fight a lot earlier. No amount of tactical acumen will make up for the hellcats and helldivers. Not to mention, the massive AA values of the Allied ships.

Oh you might pick off a few Allied carriers but it will cost you all your top pilots and most of your carriers. It is a fight that the Americans should be spoiling for.




Actually it is also a fight that the Japanese should be spoiling for. Victory is a relative term. In Witp it can mean many things. After mid 43 as the Japanese player you are going to lose all of your navy at some point or leave them in port which is the same thing. Getting something for your assets is victory. Doing better than historical is the gauge. If you can sink more than was sunk and if you can slow down the allied advance then you can claim a small victory in the hard times ahead. It is all about attitude. We Japanese players know we are going to lose(short of playing gamey) the idea is to lose hard and die well. In so doing lies the only victory that is possible.



Well, I agree with your statement but my point is that the time to use and lose KB is in 1942 when you can really deal out some damage to the Allies. By 1943 with all things equal in ships and such, a big carrier fight is going to be soundly won by the Allies.
Allied carriers are loaded with hellcats, allied dive bombers drop 1,000 pound eggs, and allies torps actually work a bit. Figure in the mass of alllied AA and better overall ship quality and KB starts to become a bit redundant.

You are going to get a whole lot less for your money if you wait.



herwin -> RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? (6/11/2008 8:47:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I am in late '43 as Japan, and been trolling for ideas for months. I am in the same boat, except he is down 6 CV, 5 CVE, and I am down 3 CV, 1 CVL.

I have seen/been given advice around the following:

1. Fight within range of your LBA. Do not fight within range of HIS LBA. As Japan, you should be able to get "Home Court Advantage" in '43.
2. Speed is not as important as it is early in war. As such, you can: A) Mix in at least 1 BB in every CV TF to soak attacks. Use the old 14in BBs if you like. B) Use the CVE's; load each with a TB Daitai or Zeke Daitai.
3. Split CV's into multiple TF's, mix in BB's, etc.
4. Set CAP to no more than 50%; you need the escorts to punch through his CAP.
5. Accept that you will suffer enormous pilot losses, and will lose ships in the exchange.

If you have every CV, and you have accelerated everything, that is ALOT of aircraft you can put up, I would estimate 1000 to 1100 aircraft. Even at 50% CAP, you would still have maybe 200 Zekes on CAP.



Back on topic.

I've put some thought into this, the main thing is that you need to save your LBA for the raid, and definately make the allies fight on your terms.

The one thing no one has mentioned is setting up a wolf-pack to attack the allied CVs on there way to where you want to fight. An effective sub screen 6-10 hexes from your desired battlespace on the most likely path of the allied strike force might be beneficial. one or two successful sub strikes can really ruin the coordination (and if they hit right even sink a ship or two) of the allied force. Slowing down 1 carrier just a bit would put the odds less in the allies favor, as there wouldn't be as large an uber cap over the main fleet.

Just some random thoughts on the matter.



Subs are about ten times too vulnerable to ASW--my experience setting up sub screens is that the TF DDs eat them alive. In fact, it's unlikely you'll have any left in late 1943 if you use them aggressively.



jerrylt2008 -> RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? (6/11/2008 8:54:06 PM)

Hey all,

Newbie here, but how about the allies hurting the KB by 12/16/1941. I did not take it out of service but i did damage 2 fleet carriers as they ran from PH. I was going for a surprise attack somewhere else and ran into them. Now I have to run from them, but I know alot of their DB and TB were damaged at PH. With this KB with 2 damaged CV plus alot of planes damaged, would you use a Surface TF to maybe get lucky while they are trying to escape?



okami -> RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? (6/11/2008 8:54:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: okami


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Late 1943, I don't think KB can win given that both sides have all their carriers. The moment has passed. You should have picked the fight a lot earlier. No amount of tactical acumen will make up for the hellcats and helldivers. Not to mention, the massive AA values of the Allied ships.

Oh you might pick off a few Allied carriers but it will cost you all your top pilots and most of your carriers. It is a fight that the Americans should be spoiling for.




Actually it is also a fight that the Japanese should be spoiling for. Victory is a relative term. In Witp it can mean many things. After mid 43 as the Japanese player you are going to lose all of your navy at some point or leave them in port which is the same thing. Getting something for your assets is victory. Doing better than historical is the gauge. If you can sink more than was sunk and if you can slow down the allied advance then you can claim a small victory in the hard times ahead. It is all about attitude. We Japanese players know we are going to lose(short of playing gamey) the idea is to lose hard and die well. In so doing lies the only victory that is possible.



Well, I agree with your statement but my point is that the time to use and lose KB is in 1942 when you can really deal out some damage to the Allies. By 1943 with all things equal in ships and such, a big carrier fight is going to be soundly won by the Allies.
Allied carriers are loaded with hellcats, allied dive bombers drop 1,000 pound eggs, and allies torps actually work a bit. Figure in the mass of alllied AA and better overall ship quality and KB starts to become a bit redundant.

You are going to get a whole lot less for your money if you wait.

I agree with your assessment but Sir Robin will usually mean that you can not get at carriers sitting on the West Coast in 42. In one of my games my opponent came out to fight in October of 43 I lost 600 planes for 1 CV and 3 CVE's sunk and 2 CV's damaged. I sustained no hits on my fleet. I have not recovered from the pilot loses, but his carriers have not come out to play since and we are in December so I gained two months of breathing space.



niceguy2005 -> RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? (6/11/2008 9:13:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: okami


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Late 1943, I don't think KB can win given that both sides have all their carriers. The moment has passed. You should have picked the fight a lot earlier. No amount of tactical acumen will make up for the hellcats and helldivers. Not to mention, the massive AA values of the Allied ships.

Oh you might pick off a few Allied carriers but it will cost you all your top pilots and most of your carriers. It is a fight that the Americans should be spoiling for.




Actually it is also a fight that the Japanese should be spoiling for. Victory is a relative term. In Witp it can mean many things. After mid 43 as the Japanese player you are going to lose all of your navy at some point or leave them in port which is the same thing. Getting something for your assets is victory. Doing better than historical is the gauge. If you can sink more than was sunk and if you can slow down the allied advance then you can claim a small victory in the hard times ahead. It is all about attitude. We Japanese players know we are going to lose(short of playing gamey) the idea is to lose hard and die well. In so doing lies the only victory that is possible.



Well, I agree with your statement but my point is that the time to use and lose KB is in 1942 when you can really deal out some damage to the Allies. By 1943 with all things equal in ships and such, a big carrier fight is going to be soundly won by the Allies.
Allied carriers are loaded with hellcats, allied dive bombers drop 1,000 pound eggs, and allies torps actually work a bit. Figure in the mass of alllied AA and better overall ship quality and KB starts to become a bit redundant.

You are going to get a whole lot less for your money if you wait.

I think a decisive battle in 43 is still a possible winning scenrio for Japan, done well and with a bit of luck - let's face it luck is a HUGE part of any carrier engagement.



esteban -> RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? (6/12/2008 7:18:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: okami


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Late 1943, I don't think KB can win given that both sides have all their carriers. The moment has passed. You should have picked the fight a lot earlier. No amount of tactical acumen will make up for the hellcats and helldivers. Not to mention, the massive AA values of the Allied ships.

Oh you might pick off a few Allied carriers but it will cost you all your top pilots and most of your carriers. It is a fight that the Americans should be spoiling for.




Actually it is also a fight that the Japanese should be spoiling for. Victory is a relative term. In Witp it can mean many things. After mid 43 as the Japanese player you are going to lose all of your navy at some point or leave them in port which is the same thing. Getting something for your assets is victory. Doing better than historical is the gauge. If you can sink more than was sunk and if you can slow down the allied advance then you can claim a small victory in the hard times ahead. It is all about attitude. We Japanese players know we are going to lose(short of playing gamey) the idea is to lose hard and die well. In so doing lies the only victory that is possible.


I am only getting into 1944 in my one PBEM game that has gone a long ways, but it seems to me that you should not be trying to trade a lot of your Japanese carriers for a few Allied carriers. One thing that I have noticed is that if one side keeps their carrier force in being it basically forces the other side to commit its own fleet carriers to make any significant advances. Once you lose your carriers your opponent has much more freedom of action to advance at will.






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