subs and large seiges help!

subs and large seiges help! (Full Version)

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Myung -> subs and large seiges help! (6/15/2008 10:49:26 PM)
Hi there! Firt post and just started playing witp a few weeks ago. Dunno how this game slipped past my attention as it's great! ok so I having some problems. I am playing stock with the latest patches and am having 2 problems I would like some insight on please! Ok first off I am playing as Japan and the allies sub force is starting to irritate me. I constantly have 10-15 subs between Formosa and Luzon. They are hitting my convoys going thru this area. So I thought I would try and eliminate them! So i put about 5 air groups on Formosa on ASW 5 or so more air groups on ASW on Luzon and on top of that I had 4 TFs of nothing but DD's (about 5-6 DD's in each)on ASW in that area. After 2 months I had sunk a grand total of 2 subs, and in that time they had sunk 2 DD's in the ASW groups..... So I split the ASW TFs into a pair of DD's each and still after a month not a single new sub is sunk. What gives? How does one sink subs in this game? I get action reports where I get several hits on various subs and even fires but they never sink! Second. It took me from the end of December to about the 2nd week of April to make the Garrisons in Batann(sp?) and Singapore. Why would this take so long when I have 3-4 times the assualt value of my attacking force? I bombed both sites multiple times a day doing ground attacks to disrupt the troops. I also sents some airgroups to dmg the airfields to use up their supplies. On top of that I had 3 TF's nightly doing bombardment on Batann (all had BB's and CA's in them) I would do bombardment attacks for a few days then do a dilibert attack and even though my attack value is higher and I have many eng units to take down fortifcations I would get slaughtered. Why did it take almost 4 months to take these bases down even though they were cut off from supply and reinforcements, getting air attacked many times a day on ground units and airfields, plus naval bombardment plus all the assaults?? thanks for any advice!

niceguy2005 -> RE: subs and large seiges help! (6/15/2008 11:51:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Myung Hi there! Firt post and just started playing witp a few weeks ago. Dunno how this game slipped past my attention as it's great! ok so I having some problems. I am playing stock with the latest patches and am having 2 problems I would like some insight on please! Ok first off I am playing as Japan and the allies sub force is starting to irritate me. I constantly have 10-15 subs between Formosa and Luzon. They are hitting my convoys going thru this area. So I thought I would try and eliminate them! So i put about 5 air groups on Formosa on ASW 5 or so more air groups on ASW on Luzon and on top of that I had 4 TFs of nothing but DD's (about 5-6 DD's in each)on ASW in that area. After 2 months I had sunk a grand total of 2 subs, and in that time they had sunk 2 DD's in the ASW groups..... So I split the ASW TFs into a pair of DD's each and still after a month not a single new sub is sunk. What gives? How does one sink subs in this game? I get action reports where I get several hits on various subs and even fires but they never sink! Second. It took me from the end of December to about the 2nd week of April to make the Garrisons in Batann(sp?) and Singapore. Why would this take so long when I have 3-4 times the assualt value of my attacking force? I bombed both sites multiple times a day doing ground attacks to disrupt the troops. I also sents some airgroups to dmg the airfields to use up their supplies. On top of that I had 3 TF's nightly doing bombardment on Batann (all had BB's and CA's in them) I would do bombardment attacks for a few days then do a dilibert attack and even though my attack value is higher and I have many eng units to take down fortifcations I would get slaughtered. Why did it take almost 4 months to take these bases down even though they were cut off from supply and reinforcements, getting air attacked many times a day on ground units and airfields, plus naval bombardment plus all the assaults?? thanks for any advice! Welcome to the game. Second question first. I would point you to the "Must Read" Sticky Thread at the top of the page to read up on land combat and sieges. Bataan often holds out for a while. Singapore should fall by sometime in Februaury...in a standard game. As to your first question...Japanese ASW is terrible at the start of the war. 2 DDs for 2 Subs in not bad. You have the right idea in combining air and sea ASW, but the implementation is not right. 1. ASW missions halve the range of the AC. DOn't know if this is documented, but it's true. ASW works if the subs are within half normal range of the AC your using. 2. Naval Search also works well for spotting and attacking subs, but the range is not halved. Altitude must be 2,000 feet or less and pilot experience must be fairly high, probably above 75 and above 80 is better. 3. Don't split up your ASW groups like that. ASW TFs of 5-6 ships is considered normal. ASW ships hunt subs better in packs and are more vulnerable is alone. 4. I have found Lilys to be about your best ASW weapon. Most of the float planes suck IMO.

Chris21wen -> RE: subs and large seiges help! (6/15/2008 11:57:18 PM)
Japanese ASW is not very good. There's a lot and I mean a lot on the subject. In game terms you can have upto 25 ships in an ASW group but that doesn't mean they will all attack. An unofficial rules is widely in use for the human player that limits ASW groups to 6 ships. But agaun they don't all attack. Other thing like experience, leadership, ASW rating will all have an effect. But above all Jap ASW is poor. Historically Singapore fell in Feb while Bataan held out until June. So you down in one up in the other. It does take a ling time to take a well fortified position. Again experience, leadership will all have an effect. Agin lots of threads.

pompack -> RE: subs and large seiges help! (6/16/2008 2:33:55 AM)
A major modeling problem with ASW a/c is that any a/c with a normal weapons loadout of "torpedo" will virtually never sink a sub since it tries to torpedo it! Against all logic and real-life practice, use Japanese Army a/c for ASW patrol. And as Niceguy said, set them to naval search (or naval attack) with 100% search and an altitude of 2000 feet (although I have reasonable success at 3000 feet also). The Allies do not have this problem to the same extent since most Navy Patrol a/c (except the PBY!) use bombs as the normal loadout.

Gem35 -> RE: subs and large seiges help! (6/16/2008 5:33:54 AM)
Welcome and glad you are enjoying this great game.[:)] Another thing to note that if you have fog of war on and you manage to hit some of the allied subs and cause fires or other damage, they may have been sunk but because of fog of war the computer will assign a delay from 0- 60 days for the ship in question to be reported in the ships sunk list on the intelligence report screen.

niceguy2005 -> RE: subs and large seiges help! (6/16/2008 5:51:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chris H Japanese ASW is not very good. There's a lot and I mean a lot on the subject. In game terms you can have upto 25 ships in an ASW group but that doesn't mean they will all attack. An unofficial rules is widely in use for the human player that limits ASW groups to 6 ships. But agaun they don't all attack. Other thing like experience, leadership, ASW rating will all have an effect. But above all Jap ASW is poor. Historically Singapore fell in Feb while Bataan held out until June. So you down in one up in the other. It does take a ling time to take a well fortified position. Again experience, leadership will all have an effect. Agin lots of threads. While all ships in an ASW TF won't attack, more than one ship can attack. The first trick is detecting the sub and engaging it. Japan really is terrible at this at first. I have experimented with flooding the sea between Formosa and Luzon with PC/PG/MSW TFs and although the TFs often locate the subs they almost actually drop DCs. My guess is that this has to do with a combination of crew experience and poor Japanese ASW technology. I forgot to mention that in the beginning of the war the best Japanese ASW ships are APDs, some of which have an ASW rating of 8. [X(] If you want to kills subs find 6 of those and put them in a TF - as mentioned earlier, using large ASW TFs is usually considered gamey. Another trick for handling subs is that once a sub is "spotted", it reacts defensively and the chances of its attacking is reduced. I read this in the forum a couple years ago and all of my playing experience seems to support it. Therefore, while you may not kill subs with planes on naval search, you can dramatically decrease the number of attacks they make. I actually find this to be one of Japan's most useful tactics early in the war. I sail TFs without fear through sub water by escorting them and conducting massive naval search.

Mynok -> RE: subs and large seiges help! (6/16/2008 6:06:27 AM)
Make sure you have leaders with high aggressiveness commanding your ASW TFs. And use Naval Search at 3000' with Army LB to do this search from Formosa.

hvymtl13 -> RE: subs and large seiges help! (6/16/2008 10:30:20 AM)
A very large number of troops historically held Bataan. They were ordered to surrender. (By what General?) - Your seeing what would happen if they hadn't made that dreadful decision.

rjopel -> RE: subs and large seiges help! (6/16/2008 10:58:18 AM)
When MG Edward King ordered the surrender of Allied forcese in Bataan they were basicly without food and ammunition. They couldn't have held out much longer.

Bogo Mil -> RE: subs and large seiges help! (6/16/2008 11:29:05 AM)
The best planes for ASW are those who have good range and many bombs. The size of these bombs matters, but the number is much more important. 4x100 kg is certainly better than 2x250 kg. Torpedo planes (e.g. Bettys) carry only one bomb on ASW-missions, so they are quite ineffective. If you want to kill subs, you have to hunt down the wounded ones. If a sub was damaged by a plane or ASW ship - send your ASW task forces for the kill. They do much better against an already damaged sub than against an intact one.

Chris21wen -> RE: subs and large seiges help! (6/16/2008 1:11:49 PM)
True for the Bettys and Nells but the default for FPs is a bomb and they have the same range as IJA LBs. Note the I'm playing CHS and there's the G5N Liz which has bombs as the default load. Would be nice to beable to chage the load out. Wonder if you can do that in AE.

Myung -> RE: subs and large seiges help! (6/16/2008 8:25:09 PM)
thanks for the replies guys. I did some of the changes you guys mentioned and havn't seen anything different just yet but then i only played a few turns lastnight, so time will tell! my game is going well, havn't lost anything bigger then a DD and have sunk a few BB's and CA ect from the allies but those carriers are playing hide and go seek with me. It was bad having Batann and Singapore last so long. It tied up all my land units in the south. So I didn't take Borneo, Java or Sumatra till the last 2 weeks of April. But I did take all 3 islands in 2 weeks atleast.

niceguy2005 -> RE: subs and large seiges help! (6/16/2008 8:50:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Myung thanks for the replies guys. I did some of the changes you guys mentioned and havn't seen anything different just yet but then i only played a few turns lastnight, so time will tell! my game is going well, havn't lost anything bigger then a DD and have sunk a few BB's and CA ect from the allies but those carriers are playing hide and go seek with me. It was bad having Batann and Singapore last so long. It tied up all my land units in the south. So I didn't take Borneo, Java or Sumatra till the last 2 weeks of April. But I did take all 3 islands in 2 weeks atleast. Borneo and much of Sumatra needs to be taken with NLF units. Except for Java, light infantry, with support is more than enough to take care of the Dutch. Are you sending your DDs back for upgrade. Starting in 2/42 many of them upgrade and double their ASW capability...until then ASW efforts will bear little fruit.

Myung -> RE: subs and large seiges help! (6/17/2008 12:02:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: niceguy2005 quote: ORIGINAL: Myung thanks for the replies guys. I did some of the changes you guys mentioned and havn't seen anything different just yet but then i only played a few turns lastnight, so time will tell! my game is going well, havn't lost anything bigger then a DD and have sunk a few BB's and CA ect from the allies but those carriers are playing hide and go seek with me. It was bad having Batann and Singapore last so long. It tied up all my land units in the south. So I didn't take Borneo, Java or Sumatra till the last 2 weeks of April. But I did take all 3 islands in 2 weeks atleast. Borneo and much of Sumatra needs to be taken with NLF units. Except for Java, light infantry, with support is more than enough to take care of the Dutch. Are you sending your DDs back for upgrade. Starting in 2/42 many of them upgrade and double their ASW capability...until then ASW efforts will bear little fruit. I have sent some of my DD's back and indeed they have started the upgrade process. I have not done a general fleet check though on all of them yet, guess I should look into that!

niceguy2005 -> RE: subs and large seiges help! (6/17/2008 12:07:06 AM)
get the WitpDecoder utility. It's a free download and lists by month and class the ships that can upgrade. [&o]

hvymtl13 -> RE: subs and large seiges help! (6/17/2008 10:06:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rjopel When MG Edward King ordered the surrender of Allied forcese in Bataan they were basicly without food and ammunition.� They couldn't have held out much longer. He was ordered Not to surrender. Which, when viewed in contrast to what happened to those guys after they surrendered was not any better. Roosevelt ordered Mcarthur to not surrender, he ordered Wainwright, who ordered King Not to surrender. I guess those guys didn't know the Japs would kill them anyway. Alot of them at least. I wonder why no units surrender in WiTP? Odd they wouldn't put that in there to cover some of the really hopeless cases I've seen where units were starved, out of supply and were surrounded.

Oldguard1970 -> RE: subs and large seiges help! (6/19/2008 12:12:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gem35 Welcome and glad you are enjoying this great game.[:)] Another thing to note that if you have fog of war on and you manage to hit some of the allied subs and cause fires or other damage, they may have been sunk but because of fog of war the computer will assign a delay from 0- 60 days for the ship in question to be reported in the ships sunk list on the intelligence report screen. My opponent and I are playing stock version 1.806. FOW is on. I sent him my sunk ships list as of 28 Dec 1941. The Allied and Japanese lists are the same. There are plenty of ships on the list, so they cannot all have been slated for zero or short delays. The FOW delay does not appear to be working in our gaem. (That is not a problem for us, but I thought I would share the information.)

bradfordkay -> RE: subs and large seiges help! (6/19/2008 7:47:19 AM)
hvymtl13 wrote: " I wonder why no units surrender in WiTP?" What on earth are you talking about? I've watched my troops surrender all over the place. I'm pretty sure that I've seen Chinese troops (at least) even surrender when not in a base hex (it was a road intersection, IIRC). Chez, wasn't that the case? Those troops that were on the trail in the woods of southeastern China that you wiped out last month; didn't they surrender on a trail hex?

Milman -> RE: subs and large seiges help! (6/20/2008 2:25:39 PM)
Allied units do surrender .

rtrapasso -> RE: subs and large seiges help! (6/20/2008 3:54:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bradfordkay hvymtl13 wrote: " I wonder why no units surrender in WiTP?" What on earth are you talking about? I've watched my troops surrender all over the place. I'm pretty sure that I've seen Chinese troops (at least) even surrender when not in a base hex (it was a road intersection, IIRC). Chez, wasn't that the case? Those troops that were on the trail in the woods of southeastern China that you wiped out last month; didn't they surrender on a trail hex? ANY unit not in a base hex generally will not surrender soon... it can take weeks to reduce them, sometimes.

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