Weapon Breakdowns (Full Version)

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Bernie -> Weapon Breakdowns (4/4/2002 9:35:10 AM)

Does anyone know just how the game engine handles weapon breakdowns? Supposedly there's a chance they can be "fixed" during a turn, but I don't think I've ever seen that actually happen yet. I find it hard to believe a unit could have a weapon break so completely as to put it out of commission for more than a two turns. Gun crews are drilled over and over again on how to clear jams and get the weapon back "up" until they can do it in their sleep. (I know, that was one of my duties, training gun crews, back in my Navy days)

Sure, you get a "dud" round every now and then, but 99.9% of the time you clear the round and you're ready to rock and roll again in a few seconds. So when, in the game, I see a Tiger lose it's 88, not for just a turn or two, but for the whole scenario, I have to wonder about it. And let's not even get on the subject of a 10 man squad suddenly having all its rifles jam at the same time...and stay jammed. I know it's because the game engine can't deal with a single weapon in a squad jamming, so when it happens it happens to the whole squad, but how about making it a quick repair, taking no more than a single turn?



Fallschirmjager -> (4/4/2002 10:16:40 AM)

Im no weapons expert but I can think of several ways for a gun to become damaged.

In response to your first question I have had a weapon stop firing and then have it repaired. This morning I had a MG-42 stop firing then 4 turns later it was repaired.


As far as large weapons go some of the possible things I can think of would be the simple things like jams, duds, overheating, premature explosions while still in the barrel (Ive read about that alot in the Civil war and a few times in WW2), the breach hatch becoming jammed and early M4s and Shermans due to poor craftmanship with prolonged firing had the rifling in their barrels worn away.

A a turn is between 2-5 minutes so a 15 turn scenario is maybe 30 min to an hour and a half so I can see losing a gun for that long. Plus we are dealing weaponary that is 60 years old and just think of the leaps in weaponary between the Spanish Civil war (45mm guns were the norm) and 1942 (88mm were installed on tanks) they probally shoved them out in the field as fast as possible and reliability be damned (look at the Panther).

One odd thing I have noticed is today I had a Sherman take an Rpg right in the side and become immobilized and lo and behold 7 turns later I get a message saying its been repaired. Unless they got out in the middle of battle and fixed the tracks or repaired the engine then I dont see how they got in running again.



tracer -> (4/4/2002 10:25:38 AM)

Repairs depend alot on the experience of the crew. The amount of damage also affects how long they could take (check the 'damage' value on the unit info screen). I had a Panther take an immobilizing side hit from a Jackson (damage=3), and was surprised when it completed repairs 5-6 turns later...and it had its full speed :eek:



Goblin -> (4/4/2002 10:30:49 AM)

tracer is right. While I would enjoy more rapid fixes (like Bernie), I have to admit, FJ had a valid point about turn length. I believe the crews DO get out and fix it, because a tool box hit negates their chance of fixing an immobilized vehicle. Medals all the way around?;)

Goblin



Fallschirmjager -> (4/4/2002 10:36:10 AM)

I was thinking the same thing, If a crew gets out and inspects the damage and begins repaires while bullets shells and mortars are hitting all around then medals all the way around.



Goblin -> (4/4/2002 10:44:40 AM)

What if they faked the damaged in the first place? Hollowpoints all the way around?

"Sure is quiet now, Sarge."
"Say, you're right, Private. Call in and tell them we 'fixed' this beast!"
Crew:"Hahahaha":)

Goblin



tracer -> (4/4/2002 10:50:16 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fallschirmjager
[B]I was thinking the same thing, If a crew gets out and inspects the damage and begins repaires while bullets shells and mortars are hitting all around then medals all the way around. [/B][/QUOTE]

If the vehicle is suppressed enough, the game engine won't even attempt checking on the status of repairs.



Bernie -> (4/4/2002 2:22:26 PM)

Okay, I'll grant the possibility of main guns breaking down for the duration of a scenario due to poor design and/or maintenance, but surely all the breakdowns aren't from those causes. When I used to train Navy 3" crews our goal for clearing a misfire was 45 seconds, and we frequently managed it in under 35. So, a jammed or dud round should still be able to be cleared by the following turn.

And yes, rounds can "cook off" in a hot breech, causing extensive damage. But if that happened it would also destroy the vehicle. At least it would with a main gun round, or any explosive round.

But what about the case of squads, where one guy has his rifle jam and it takes that away from the entire squad? At least let's get that fixed so an entire sqaud doesn't lose the use of a weapon for more than a turn. The only actual incident I've ever heard of where an entire squad suffered a failure of their rifles was with the early M-16's that would jam if a little dirt got in the chamber. This was fixed by adding a bolt "assist" lever to the right side, allowing the bolt to be forced home even if it was a bit dirty. That's the mod that changed the M-16 to the M-16A1.



Paul Vebber -> (4/4/2002 7:13:14 PM)

Think of those situations not as all teh rifles breaking, but Cpl Smudkin the ammo hauler gets lost, or shot, or waylaid by the squad next door...suddnely when everyone expects the next batch of ammo up, its nowhere to be found.



Svennemir -> (4/4/2002 8:45:08 PM)

I've never seen primary infantry weapons jam. I've often (not THAT often actually) seen squad LMGs jam, and sometimes hand grenades for some reason.

One explanation to the "quick" vehicle immobility repairs: sometimes the tank might be stuck in mud or other terrain "features" - while the crew is still inside they will be able to get free using the tracks. Possibly.



Charles2222 -> (4/4/2002 9:16:55 PM)

Actually ratio-wise, wouldn't you say, particularly the rifles and LMGs don't jam enough? I can't recall the last time I saw this happen (but I also don't fight with small-arms that terribly much). It also may be a bit mistaken to characterise the jam as 'one' jamming or broken and therefore extending to the whole lot, but rather that maybe the majority are broken/jammed as such, and that the program only bothers to break the entire set of that category of weapon when the majority are unuseable. Yeah, they should repair often enough in battle, but I must say I am pleased with the AFV immobility getting fixed quicker. It does make for some interesting situations when perhaps you expect the enemy armor is destroyed, only to find one of the earlier broken ones got repaired and comes charging out of nowhere when you had your guard largely down.



Jeff_Ewing -> (4/4/2002 9:38:47 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Svennemir
[B]I've never seen primary infantry weapons jam.[/B][/QUOTE]

Played "Russian Steel"? Apalling breakdowns have plagued my tanks and infantry weapons, always at the worst possible time (45mm ATG with clear short-range shot at PzKwIII, for example)

[QUOTE][B]I've often (not THAT often actually) seen squad LMGs jam, and sometimes hand grenades for some reason.
[/B][/QUOTE]

My take on the "grenade jam" -- the guys are crawling around in the brush and some grenades get knocked off jacket pockets or out of pouches, so the squad has fewer than they think they do. Later, an enemy sniper picks them up and close assaults your tank! (Paul, do I get a Marvel Comics style "No Prize" for that?)

Seriously, all 1st person combat accounts I've read speak of the amazing amount of lost/discarded weapons and equipement on a battlefield.

Jeff



tracer -> (4/4/2002 10:23:28 PM)

I think the weapon/vehicle breakdowns are very well done in SPWAW...with one exception: motorcycle squads. I've tried to come up with a 'what if' for them, but can't. Granted, they are the only 'vehicle' in the game that is actually multiple vehicles, so I understand why.



Charles2222 -> (4/4/2002 11:44:00 PM)

Jeff_Ewing:
quote:

Seriously, all 1st person combat accounts I've read speak of the amazing amount of lost/discarded weapons and equipement on a battlefield.


That would seem to defend the Tiger-slaying sniper syndrome, but on the other side of the equation, what about the sniper that blows up out of thin air, because he picked up a booby-trapped weapon?



Belisarius -> (4/5/2002 1:16:20 AM)

As frustrating as it is, weapons breakdowns can be ALOT of fun!

When it happens, it's usually my best positioned MG crew or Tank that gets a jam (or whatever). This might of course not be the case, but that's when I really notice it happening. *grr* So I leave the unit alone, knowing it won't do any good and usually only move it occasionally. WHEN, at a later stage in the battle, the crew fixes it (ta-daaa), and by this time it's usually positioned somewhere I never would have placed it if it was operational AND this location often turns up to have a great advantage.

It's almost like having a tank/MG teleported right into the place you need it to be. To have, or not to have, an MG in the right place can easily be decisive for a whole flank...



JimPY -> (4/5/2002 4:11:44 AM)

I have never had a weapon that brokedown get repaired. I have tried moving the unit well behind the battle, but it never has mattered. So I no longer use the weapons breakdown preference.
On the other hand, I have vehicles breakdown and get repaired all the time. So I do use the vehicle breakdown preference.



Fallschirmjager -> (4/5/2002 4:25:02 AM)

If you turn off the preference how do you expect to ever see it?


I can understand weapons getting repaired.
I can also understand vehicles becoming mobile again after smashing through a house or getting stuck on a terrain feature.

But taking an RPG in the side and getting it running again? I mean come on youd need a few days or even a few weeks to get an armor patch and the engine/gun/tracks/optics/barrel repaired. The US is the only ones I know that repaired their dameged vehicles on a reguar basis. Thats why the Germans when they got the chance put some extra rounds into the vehicle for good measure.



Charles2222 -> (4/5/2002 9:14:14 AM)

Actually the Germans were doing it probably before the US landed in NAfrica, as the British complained that Rommel had vehicle recovery vehicles and that they cared more for their equipment than the British did (in the desert anyway).



Belisarius -> (4/6/2002 1:18:20 AM)

I'll second you on that, Charles.

The Germans had excellent field repair shops (and a truly devoted mechanics corps..). Short of a completely burned out tank, most "destroyed" tanks were operational a few days later, or cannibalized for parts. They went to great lengths recovering disabled tanks, even under fire. Every division had at least one, if not many, tank repair shops.

If this was a practice adopted due to the shortage of new tanks, or just a standard army procedure is beyond my knowledge, but my guess is the former.

Anyway, the English, Russian and U.S. troops all noted the German efficiency and probably adopted their own versions.

Putting extra rounds in a dead tank was, AFAIK, practice on all sides, as HEAT does very little structural damage to a vehicle = easy claimed for repairs.



Capt. Pixel -> (4/6/2002 8:28:17 AM)

I, too, never recall having a weapon repaired.

But my vehicles get repaired on a fairly regular basis, if they were immobilized as a result of movement, not fire.

It also seems that when a vehicle does get immobilized, it's always with his side or rear to the enemy line. :o



m10bob -> (4/6/2002 9:23:30 PM)

Personally I do like the possibility of weapon breakdowns,but i don't think they should be as often as we have seen..As for an entire grunt unit losing their small arms,IT CAN HAPPEN!!(Remember the early days of the original issue "bayonet-barrel" M-16).....????.......:(



Irinami -> (10/4/2002 10:57:34 AM)

Something about fire-caused immobility fixes...

Ask a tanker about "slipping a track," or changing a tread plate (not sure the proper terminology). Motorcycle breakdowns (except from fire)... um... are kinda' ridiculous. Even in the 30's.



arethusa -> (6/23/2003 11:19:56 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Svennemir
[B]
One explanation to the "quick" vehicle immobility repairs: sometimes the tank might be stuck in mud or other terrain "features" - while the crew is still inside they will be able to get free using the tracks. Possibly. [/B][/QUOTE]

Another explanation could be what the tank was doing at the time it got immobilized.

If the tank was moving at top speed, it's quite possible for the tank to roll right off the track on one side. A repair that would take a considerable length of time to repair. Meanwhile, if a tank was lucky and stopped immediately (say the track link at the drive wheel broke) there might not be much to make the repair since they only had to connect one piece and not string along the entire tread. Or perhaps the hinge-pin of a tread broke and they realized this before moving so it was even easier to fix.

Working on artillery, I once saw the brakes on a 105mm break. The entire gun jumped about 3 feet into the air when it fired. You can bet nobody wanted to try firing that gun again without major repairs and we didn't carry spare brake assemblies out in the field so yes, a breakdown could put a main gun out of action for the entire game.

Another main gun possibility could be something happening to the sights. Fixing broken glass, mirrors and fiddly brass bits isn't that easy to do when you're being fired at and your tank is bouncing across rutted fields.

One additional strange thing I've seen though, is having a motorcycle unit of 10 men immobilized due to breakdown. I can just picture the whole Hell's Angels squad standing around with their beers and broads watching while one guy fixes the chain on his bike. What's with the other 9 men?



Sentry -> (6/23/2003 11:30:55 PM)

Hmmmmm.........i understand that weapons may break down so that its unable to fix them in combat situation.I even believe it may happen to tank main gun.....BUT: i never believe that 10-men squad`s ALL grenades malfunction:p .Thats most weird.Ofcourse one may not explode but all of them? Jeez....
In my experience none of malfunctioned guns were repaired during whole game and some have been 30+ turns long.
It really pisses me off,especially when its some good tank and its main gun.I have seen breakdowns being repaired several times and quite soon but as i said: i have never seen reapaired weapon.



arethusa -> (6/23/2003 11:31:58 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Belisarius
[B]

Putting extra rounds in a dead tank was, AFAIK, practice on all sides, as HEAT does very little structural damage to a vehicle = easy claimed for repairs. [/B][/QUOTE]
Too bad we can't do that in SPWAW. I've often seen a crew bail out of a tank and get away sinc eyour hit ratio on them is low. You know your opponent is going to try to reclaim that tank later in the game but it's covered by too many guns for you to be able to put a unit on it to 'spike' it. So, you have to leave it be and deal with again 10 turns later when it goes live again.

I wish there was a way to destroy an unnoccupied vehicle other than being in the same hex with it but you just can't target them.



Sentry -> (6/23/2003 11:35:16 PM)

Putting extra rounds in a dead tank was, AFAIK, practice on all sides, as HEAT does very little structural damage to a vehicle = easy claimed for repairs. [/B][/QUOTE]


I have question about this: i know that dead tanks were used as target practise but how does HEAT damage tank when not its structure?Does it burn the crew to their death or does its explosion wave knock out the crew?



Sentry -> (6/23/2003 11:40:26 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by arethusa

I wish there was a way to destroy an unnoccupied vehicle other than being in the same hex with it but you just can't target them. [/B][/QUOTE]


Actually i wish that my crewmen form my destroyed tank could man enemy`s abandoned tank.Imagine your Tiger crew that has lost its tank and 1 man standing next to empty T-34/85 and say:Sorry dude,we cant fight in Russian tanks.(although germans used some of soviets captured heavy tanks as their own).
Now thats something strange.I prefer dying in tank,shelling enemy and smashing his troops rather than run under heavy fire in the open ground in a small hope:maybe they run out of ammo.



arethusa -> (6/24/2003 6:45:01 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sentry
[B]Actually i wish that my crewmen form my destroyed tank could man enemy`s abandoned tank.Imagine your Tiger crew that has lost its tank and 1 man standing next to empty T-34/85 and say:Sorry dude,we cant fight in Russian tanks.(although germans used some of soviets captured heavy tanks as their own).
Now thats something strange.I prefer dying in tank,shelling enemy and smashing his troops rather than run under heavy fire in the open ground in a small hope:maybe they run out of ammo. [/B][/QUOTE]
The only problem with doing that is that there might be some language problems in reading the instruments and sights. However, I would think a speedometer would look similar in any language. Or maybe the controls are different enough that it would take some time to get used to them. Sort of like trying to ride an old Triumph MC when you're used to riding a Harley. The clutch, front brakes and I think throttle were reveresed.

But even more annoying IMHO, is when you have say a Tiger crew bail out because their tank is kaput, and they can't climb into another Tiger where the crew got shot by MG. The difference between one tank and another of the same kind should be minor enought that they could run the second tank about as efficiently as they could their original. (or HT, truck, ATG, etc.)

Using another countries vehicle might be difficult without some time but your own should be a snap. Heck, after firing 105mm in real life, I'm pretty sure I could figure out how to use a 75mm ATG pretty quick if there was an enemy tank heading right for me.



arethusa -> (6/24/2003 6:51:56 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sentry
[B]Putting extra rounds in a dead tank was, AFAIK, practice on all sides, as HEAT does very little structural damage to a vehicle = easy claimed for repairs. [/B][/QUOTE]


I have question about this: i know that dead tanks were used as target practise but how does HEAT damage tank when not its structure?Does it burn the crew to their death or does its explosion wave knock out the crew? [/B][/QUOTE]
IIRC, what HEAT did was knock off a piece of the armour on the inside of the tank. Called 'spaling', it was sort of like the cone-shaped hole you see on the inside of a plate-glass window that a stone has hit. The stone doesn't go through the window but a bit flakes off inside.

At least this is what happened with some AT rifles. The piece then ricocheted around the inside of the tank and the crew were left still sitting in their seats, but looking a little like hamburg when the round finally stopped, if it didn't hit something explosive on the inside of the tank first.

The other possibility is that the HEAT might have had such a concussion that it killed or at least incapacitated the crew. And again it might have set off internal explosions.



SkidLid -> (6/24/2003 11:27:14 AM)

Shaped charge warheads (like the PzFaust series weapons have) also have another, extremly nasty side effect. The "beam" of energy that punches through the armour spreads out inside the tank as a spray of flame and molten armour. This is usually enough to detinate fuel and/or ammo, but if it doesnt, it does horrible things to the crew... :eek:



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