Fog of War...unfortunately...not the case

Fog of War...unfortunately...not the case (Full Version)

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Bigdog128 -> Fog of War...unfortunately...not the case (7/17/2008 9:19:15 PM)
I have found what I think is a significant bug in the game. Under the correct set of circumstances, a Japanese player is able to re-run turns, until he/she is satisfied with the results. I have successfully tested this theory of mine 3 different times. The circumstances to set this up are difficult to duplicate unless the Japanese player is trying to duplicate the bug for his/her gain in the game. Basically, both players must save the game and then restart the game from a position above 20. Then....I think....they must both restart from the same position at some time in the game. This, I believe, sets the bug/cheat in motion. Example. The Japanese player saves the game in position 12, 21, 25. Restarts in position 12, 21, and also 25. Finally ends his turn in position 13. Allied player gets the save game. Starts it from position 13. Saves it in position 21. Comes back later to finish his turn, restarting it from position 21, a position that the Japanese player has previously saved to. At this point, the bug/cheat is enabled. From now on, the Japanese player can watch the animation, and if he/she is unsatisfied with the results, quit the game with out saving, and run the animation again...until he/she is satisfied with the new, cheating result. He then sends the turn off to the allied player. The way to know that cheating is going on, is that the combat text save file from the jap is not the same one the allied player will generate. no matter what the Jap sends, running the allied turn will print the original, true turn text save file, and the watching the animation will also be the original true turn result. What is different is that no matter what was originally done the first time around, the actual save game file now has the new, cheating results and the allied player has to live with the results. the only way to know the cheating is going on is know you have saved beyond position 20 at some point as the allied player, and the animation and combat text file you generate does not match what the Japanese player sends you. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I feel people should know and how to look for it and how to avoid it by not saving in positions above 20. I am done testing at this time. I am satisfied, as I have duplicated the results with 3 unique runs of the coral sea scenario, and each time i could duplicate the results. What exact number of saves to positions beyond 20 and what not I leave to someone else to discover and post. I am done with this post, and very disappointed that people would knowingly hack and cheat the system. Bigdog128, aka Jamie Steffens

bigbaba -> RE: Fog of War...unfortunately...not the case (7/17/2008 10:14:18 PM)
it seems that you think that i am cheatting in our game, because you sent me 2 different combat logs back via email with your "comment". if thats the case, i am very very dissapointed and would end our realy enjoyable game immidiatly. as for the difference in the combat logs, just surf here in the forum and you will find a lot of posting about this problem. even i had the same problem in my game vs ike where i got 2 realy different combat logs (check the AAR about my game with ike). thats a game issiue and should not be used to name other players "cheater". this 2 logs you sent to me seem to be the problem: AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 03/08/43 Weather: Rain Air attack on TF, near Buna at 12,38 Allied aircraft Hudson x 3 no losses Japanese Ships AG 2053 Attacking Level Bombers: 3 x Hudson at 100 feet -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Air attack on TF, near Buna at 12,38 Allied aircraft B-25J Mitchell x 6 no losses Japanese Ships AG 2067, Shell hits 8, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage Attacking Level Bombers: 2 x B-25J Mitchell at 100 feet 4 x B-25J Mitchell at 100 feet -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Air attack on TF, near Buna at 12,38 Allied aircraft Hudson x 3 B-25J Mitchell x 7 no losses Japanese Ships AG 374, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage AG 375, Shell hits 4, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage AG 121, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage Attacking Level Bombers: 3 x Hudson at 100 feet 4 x B-25J Mitchell at 100 feet 3 x B-25J Mitchell at 100 feet -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- and: Weather: Rain Air attack on TF, near Buna at 12,38 Allied aircraft Hudson x 3 no losses Japanese Ships AG 2053 Attacking Level Bombers: 3 x Hudson at 100 feet -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Air attack on TF, near Buna at 12,38 Allied aircraft B-25J Mitchell x 6 Allied aircraft losses B-25J Mitchell x 1 damaged Japanese Ships AG 2067, Shell hits 12, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage Attacking Level Bombers: 2 x B-25J Mitchell at 100 feet 4 x B-25J Mitchell at 100 feet -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Air attack on TF, near Buna at 12,38 Allied aircraft Hudson x 3 B-25J Mitchell x 7 no losses Japanese Ships AG 375, Shell hits 4, Bomb hits 6, on fire, heavy damage Attacking Level Bombers: 3 x Hudson at 100 feet 4 x B-25J Mitchell at 100 feet 3 x B-25J Mitchell at 100 feet ----------------------------------------- all i can say it: -i run every turn only one time. -i saved all savegames in slots between 1-20. now if you trust me, we can continue...but if not, then game over. feel free to send the savegame files to someone from matrix to check them. but i do not accept that someone calls me a cheater although i too had very high loses in our game and you won many battles against me.

Bigdog128 -> RE: Fog of War...unfortunately...not the case (7/18/2008 2:57:40 AM)
Unfortunately, it is not what I want it to be...or what I wish it to be....it is what it is. I can duplicate this bug 100% of the time as I have tested this 3 times in a row in three games that I set up PBEM. I am not sure what the minumim requirement is to set off the bug/cheat, but I know I can set it off by the methods described above. The results that I got exactly duplicated the type of discrepencies I was getting. I am a relative newcomer to the UV world and I would not have even thought it was possible had not Hans Bolter and I discovered it by chance. We were playing at the local coffee shop last week. There was a carrier battle about to happen, but the shop was about to close. So, we just ran the combat animation for the jap turn, and it was very exciting to watch. However, no carriers were hit in these initial results. When Hans got home and ran the combat animation again, I got about 5 hits on a carrier of his, and he got several on mine. He had to run two hours worth of turns to get very close to the original turn that we both watched that initial time. He never did get EXACTLY the same result, but it was close enough to continue. That got me thinking about all the discrepancies that were occuring in my game. I started to research to see if I could duplicate the bug, and unfortunately, I was. I had thought that Hans had also saved and restarted a game in a position above 20, but tonight, when we played again, he told me that he had not. So that is telling me thatonly the allied player saving/restarting above 20 in some sequence can anable the bug. I will research this more to try and determine exactly what can duplicate the bug with only the allied player saving/restarting above position 20. jamie

fuelli -> RE: Fog of War...unfortunately...not the case (7/18/2008 7:44:27 AM)
If I understand correctly there is simple method for the allied player to prevent this: Never change the saveslot of the incoming japanese turn. Correct? Or to make things more save: Befor starting the game both players agree upon one savespot used by both and neither of them should change them during the. As I understand the described above can not happen and the allied player has the control over that matter even if the japanese player tries to cheat. Or did I got something wrong?

HansBolter -> RE: Fog of War...unfortunately...not the case (7/18/2008 11:06:14 AM)
I don't know why, but feel responsible for the can of worms that is being opened here. As Jamie stated WE discovered it accidently. We were impatient and didn't want to wait to see the combat phase as we both knew it was going to be full of action with both surface and carrier combats. We started the Japanese turn, watched the combat phase resolution and then QUIT out of the game without saving the progress of the Japanese turn. I believe that if we had saved the progress of the turn it would not have been possible to rerun the combat phase and get completely different results. The different results were NOT fog of war. When I got home and ran the turn again the next day I was aghast at the fact that it was completely different. The differeing results were real. It wasn't just fog of war in reporting the outcome. Realizing that Jamie might think I had somehow cheated, I immediately quit out of the turn again without saving it to test what was going on. Sure enough, I got different results again that were not fog of war. I then decided to run and reun it until I got something very close to the original results we had watched the first time. It left me with a very sour taste in my mouth to have been forced to "cheat" multiple times in an attempt to avoid cheating. When this occurred, I recalled some threads on the WitP forum where half the posters were claimiing that it was impossible to reun a turn and get different results and half were making the counter claim. I can never remember his screen name, but the guy with the avatar of the sad sack GI from a Bill Maudlin cartoon was repeatedly assuring people that there is a way to rerun a turn and get different results, but he refrained from explaining it in an apparent attempt to keep the cat from getting out of the bag, so to speak. I believe we stumbled on to it. As for whether, or not, saving in a slot above 20 somehow removes some kind of security lock that is applied to slots 1-20 is something I cannot personnally confirm, Jamie experimented with this. I have only ever moved a saved PBEM game to a different slot once, and that was at the request of my opponent to move it to a slot he had open, which was #16. Believe me, I am not happy about being the one to have "discovered" this. It opens a huge can of worms. It is still certainly possible that the differeing results an Allied player sees between his run of the combat phase and the combat text report are the results of fog of war. The potential implication this "discovery" has is that now everyone will be suspicious every time they see a differing result. I really, really, hope we can get Matrix/2x3 to comment on this.

Bigdog128 -> RE: Fog of War...unfortunately...not the case (7/18/2008 11:37:26 AM)
To be honest, I have not completely tested whether the Japanese player can initiate the bug on his own, without Allied help. I sure hope he can not. I will be testing for that possibility in the next few days. I will report back when I have tested and re-tested and then re-tested yet again. Jamie.

Erik Rutins -> RE: Fog of War...unfortunately...not the case (7/18/2008 3:56:43 PM)
I'm not sure what's possible here, but we'll look into this ASAP.

Ike99 -> RE: Fog of War...unfortunately...not the case (7/19/2008 5:04:09 AM)
quote: Unfortunately, it is not what I want it to be...or what I wish it to be....it is what it is. I can duplicate this bug 100% of the time as I have tested this 3 times in a row in three games that I set up PBEM. quote: it seems that you think that i am cheatting in our game, because you sent me 2 different combat logs back via email with your "comment". if thats the case, i am very very dissapointed and would end our realy enjoyable game immidiatly. bigbaba, if you remember in our game you sent an early turn in a slot above 20 and I told you to always put your PBEM turns in slots 1-20 because these are PBEM secure. I have no doubt you did that not to cheat, but just because you didn�t know. I was playing a long time player and did the same thing (save in a slot above 20) and he told me the same thing i told you. There are several post of mine on here mentioning this prior. Bigdog128, as far as I know slots one through 20 are totally secure. Always play your PBEM turn in one of these slots, then there are no problems or doubts.

bigbaba -> RE: Fog of War...unfortunately...not the case (7/19/2008 8:06:33 AM)
ike, jamie and i saved our games only in 1-20 slots. so there is no logical reason in my eyes to end a game in which we invested so much time and which advanced into the middle of 1943.

Bigdog128 -> RE: Fog of War...unfortunately...not the case (7/19/2008 11:15:58 AM)
Unfortunately for me, I had temporarily saved and restarted in save game slots above position 20 in this game and in all the games I have going, enabling the bug. I did not know about the bug. Now I do, and will not do this in the future. Jamie

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