Elmer refuses to attack (Full Version)

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Boonierat -> Elmer refuses to attack (7/25/2008 8:07:43 AM)

Playtesting Volume 8 of my Vietnam series and I'm having several cases where Elmer systematically refuses to attack (even with Strategic Bias: Berserk on) and just I can't understand why. Here's a example: The VC unit K2/Dong Nai is supposed to enter on turn 5 and attack along the axis shown but Elmer never moves it and choses to 'consolidate' instead. Can anyone see a reason why? does the presence of enemy units all around has any effect?

[img]http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg272/Boonierat1972/Volume%207%20After%20Action%20Report/Screencap2.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg272/Boonierat1972/Volume%207%20After%20Action%20Report/Screencap1.jpg[/img]



Silvanski -> RE: Elmer refuses to attack (7/25/2008 9:05:52 AM)

Have you tried setting the unit on "advance"?



JAMiAM -> RE: Elmer refuses to attack (7/25/2008 9:19:05 AM)

Attack will have Elmer being mindful of his flanks. Advance will have him disregard those threats. Being that the unit is smack dab in the middle of the enemy, you'll want to use Advance. Also, you should insert Obj 1 at the location where the unit is appearing, so that Elmer has an easier time of setting his advance axis, from Obj 1 > Obj 2 > Obj 3 > Obj 4.



Boonierat -> RE: Elmer refuses to attack (7/25/2008 9:40:37 AM)

Cheers guys, gonna try that [8D]



Boonierat -> RE: Elmer refuses to attack (7/25/2008 10:46:38 AM)

I've tried your suggestions guys, but it had absolutely no effect on Elmer [:D]. Can you think of anything else that could force him to attack?



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Elmer refuses to attack (7/25/2008 2:13:15 PM)

Um, only guessing here, but maybe try objective 1 at the entry hex, and obj 2 as the final objective, eliminating the intermediate stops. Just to see if he at least moves. I've found that 'advance' does work well in this type of situation. Maybe also try Internal Support instead of Force Support. I may be crazy, but I swear sometimes Elmer on Force Support is also looking at everybody elses objectives, instead of just his own.



sstevens06 -> RE: Elmer refuses to attack (7/26/2008 2:01:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Um, only guessing here, but maybe try objective 1 at the entry hex, and obj 2 as the final objective, eliminating the intermediate stops. Just to see if he at least moves. I've found that 'advance' does work well in this type of situation. Maybe also try Internal Support instead of Force Support. I may be crazy, but I swear sometimes Elmer on Force Support is also looking at everybody elses objectives, instead of just his own.



I agree its worth a try. Go a step further and don't even put an objective at the entry hex - let objective 1 be at the final objective and see what happens.

I had similar problems getting Egyptian Ferry Engineer and 1st-echelon forces to attack appropriately on turn 1 of my Suez Canal 1973 scenario and solved them by changing these units' formation objectives as I suggest above. (Btw, there was also a bug involving the way Ferry Engineer-type units reacted to formation 'Attack' orders - which Ralph promptly and effectively fixed in one of the recent patches.)



Boonierat -> RE: Elmer refuses to attack (7/26/2008 6:44:01 AM)

Gonna try your suggestions over the weekend [:)]



ColinWright -> RE: Elmer refuses to attack (7/26/2008 7:32:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Boonierat

I've tried your suggestions guys, but it had absolutely no effect on Elmer [:D]. Can you think of anything else that could force him to attack?


Calculated insults and suggestive remarks concerning his mother?



*Lava* -> RE: Elmer refuses to attack (8/8/2008 12:10:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Boonierat

The VC unit K2/Dong Nai is supposed to enter on turn 5 and attack along the axis shown but Elmer never moves it and choses to 'consolidate' instead. Can anyone see a reason why?


The unit appears to be pretty isolated on the map from a supply viewpoint. That and the 60% supply the unit has would probably cause it to consolidate.

Two possible options: Up the supply of the unit and/or put a supply point at the units start position.

Cheers,

Ray (alias Lava)



Boonierat -> RE: Elmer refuses to attack (8/8/2008 1:47:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava
The unit appears to be pretty isolated on the map from a supply viewpoint. That and the 60% supply the unit has would probably cause it to consolidate.

Two possible options: Up the supply of the unit and/or put a supply point at the units start position.



Cheers, Ray, I'll try to raise the formation and unit supply and see how it goes.





*Lava* -> RE: Elmer refuses to attack (8/8/2008 3:19:03 PM)

I think if you turn on the supply circles (thingy) you will see that the area is pretty poor for supply due to all the rivers around the unit. The unit will take a severe supply hit just by moving.

If that is true, I'd test it by putting a supply point at the start hex and giving the unit 150 supply. If the unit then does what you want it to, you can adjust the supply/readiness stuff to give you the effect you want.

I think even on Berserk Elmer still respects supply a whole lot and will try to move along the best supply route. The only way to get around that would be to include a new Strategic Bias called "Suicidal" in which the supply checks are taken out of consideration for movement and attacks.

Another way the game could be improved would be to add "foot paths" which give a very nominal supply bonus but which would almost certainly be used by Elmer when setting the Strategic Bias to Berserk.

If you don't want to use a supply point, you might also try something like this (although I have no idea whether it will actually boost supply to the area or not):
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v732/lavaslair/Supply-2.jpg[/img]

You could treat it as a small bridge, which were very common in Vietnam.

Good luck,

Ray (alias Lava)



Boonierat -> RE: Elmer refuses to attack (8/8/2008 4:39:51 PM)

Yeah, I'm not willing to add a PO supply point on the unit location if I can avoid it, gonna try raising the area supply as best as I can though.

Funny you should mention a "Suicidal" bias for Elmer, I was thinking the exact same thing. It would be great to have a setting where Elmer does not take into account supply, presence of other enemy units and combat odds when attacking.



*Lava* -> RE: Elmer refuses to attack (8/8/2008 4:48:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Boonierat

Funny you should mention a "Suicidal" bias for Elmer, I was thinking the exact same thing. It would be great to have a setting where Elmer does not take into account supply, presence of other enemy units and combat odds when attacking.


I think folks would be surprised just how useful such a bias could be and the types of scenarios which could make use of it.

Hope you solve your problem.

Ray (alias Lava)



jmlima -> RE: Elmer refuses to attack (8/8/2008 7:41:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava
...

Another way the game could be improved would be to add "foot paths" which give a very nominal supply bonus but which would almost certainly be used by Elmer when setting the Strategic Bias to Berserk.
...


If there's something TOAW does not need is more supply. At best it needs a lot less supply.



jmlima -> RE: Elmer refuses to attack (8/8/2008 7:44:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Boonierat

Playtesting Volume 8 of my Vietnam series and I'm having several cases where Elmer systematically refuses to attack (even with Strategic Bias: Berserk on) and just I can't understand why. Here's a example: The VC unit K2/Dong Nai is supposed to enter on turn 5 and attack along the axis shown but Elmer never moves it and choses to 'consolidate' instead. Can anyone see a reason why? does the presence of enemy units all around has any effect?
...


Out of curiosity, would you attack if you were in the position of that unit and had full knowledge of what's ahead? I would almost dare to say Elmer is being wise enough for an PO, and not doing hat would be an attack at suicidal odds.

It does raise the question of how much knowledge Elmer has of the other side units...



Boonierat -> RE: Elmer refuses to attack (8/8/2008 8:20:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jmlima
Out of curiosity, would you attack if you were in the position of that unit and had full knowledge of what's ahead? I would almost dare to say Elmer is being wise enough for an PO, and not doing hat would be an attack at suicidal odds.

It does raise the question of how much knowledge Elmer has of the other side units...


The first attack is 7-2, hardly 'suicidal'. The other objectives were set just to get PO to move on. What I'm trying to do is simmulate the VC hit-and-run attacks, but Area Warfare is not what Elmer was programmed for.



jmlima -> RE: Elmer refuses to attack (8/8/2008 11:13:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Boonierat


quote:

ORIGINAL: jmlima
Out of curiosity, would you attack if you were in the position of that unit and had full knowledge of what's ahead? I would almost dare to say Elmer is being wise enough for an PO, and not doing hat would be an attack at suicidal odds.

It does raise the question of how much knowledge Elmer has of the other side units...


The first attack is 7-2, hardly 'suicidal'. The other objectives were set just to get PO to move on. What I'm trying to do is simmulate the VC hit-and-run attacks, but Area Warfare is not what Elmer was programmed for.



Any of us still have to see a PO in any PC Wargame that is capable if hit-and-run. Unfortunately that's PC Wargames biggest failure, their promise to give an even half-decent (without cheating) PO.



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