Best way to Kill PT Boats? (Full Version)

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Coach Z -> Best way to Kill PT Boats? (7/27/2008 1:24:00 AM)

Ok so whats the best way to kill PT Boats?

My IJN CLs won't fire on them and my DDs are getting chewed up.
MY A6M2's occasionally attack them and then only do minor damage.
I have a sentai of ANN dive Bomers at the base in question (where my opponent kept sending his PT Boats in to) now the ANNs will attack his AKs and APs but won't go after the PT Boats. I even tried putting the ANNS on solely Naval Strike and limiting them to range 1 but still after several days (Clear weather) nothing.

I am going bonkers.



bilbow -> RE: Best way to Kill PT Boats? (7/27/2008 1:44:19 AM)

Aircraft at 100 feet altitude will attack PT boats. Anns, Zeros, also float planes. Even a small bomb from a float plane will do in a PT quite nicely. I suspect the altitude is your main problem here.



floydg -> RE: Best way to Kill PT Boats? (7/27/2008 1:53:40 AM)

Give up. Abandon Koumac. There is no hope.
[:D]



Coach Z -> RE: Best way to Kill PT Boats? (7/27/2008 4:49:34 AM)

So I need to set my Dive Bombers (or Float Planes) to 100 feet?



Gem35 -> RE: Best way to Kill PT Boats? (7/27/2008 5:07:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Coach Z

So I need to set my Dive Bombers (or Float Planes) to 100 feet?



quote:

ORIGINAL: bilbow

Aircraft at 100 feet altitude will attack PT boats. Anns, Zeros, also float planes. Even a small bomb from a float plane will do in a PT quite nicely. I suspect the altitude is your main problem here.




n01487477 -> RE: Best way to Kill PT Boats? (7/27/2008 5:08:20 AM)

In the game I'm playing, zero's@100 are doing the trick nicely...Oscars to much less extent and float and DB's are also in the mix. High exp and good leaders can help too ... watch out for Op's losses though.



wild_Willie2 -> RE: Best way to Kill PT Boats? (7/28/2008 12:41:13 PM)

Remember that Fighter bombers will bomb PT's and barges even when set to 2000 feet...

So, get yourselve some FB's (if you already have them that is) and give them a naval attack order.....



niceguy2005 -> RE: Best way to Kill PT Boats? (7/28/2008 6:11:07 PM)

Folks, dealing with PTs isnt THAT hard.  The way you kill PT boats is with destoryers....period.  It's what they were built for.  I have never in the many, many turns I've played, seen PTs best a surface fleet more often than the occassional fluke engagement.  It's just random dumb luck if they do.  Furthermore, I have seen MSW and PGs handle PTs quite nicely.  Any hit with a 3" gun will pretty much do in a PT boat made of plywood.  There is no need to send in cruisers.  They are not designed for small boat action.  Use destroyers.

Finally, yes, zeros do quite nice at attriting PT Boats.  If you have the time and no better missions for zeros to fly they will damage PTs pretty good.  Float planes, if within range are another way of damaging a PT boat.  A 60kg bomb will do quite a number on a PT boat...but again, it takes time.

An option I haven't tried yet is to form up a TF with a scout cruiser (with planes set to naval attack and some set to naval search) and attach 6 or so DDs.  That should be a force that could operate under any friendly air space and would be death to PT boat squadrons.

As a side note, from the reading I've done the single greatest danger to PT boats in the Solomons was moving through the uncharted waters.  I read somewhere more PTs were lost to running aground than to enemy fire.  The second biggest killer of PTs were places.  Usually float planes or the occassional fighter plane on patrol.  My opinion why this is different from WitP is that the typical PT mission had the boats operating alone or in a group with 1 or 2 other boats.  Most were not surface combat missions.



John Lansford -> RE: Best way to Kill PT Boats? (7/28/2008 6:45:00 PM)

Destroyers were originally named "torpedo boat destroyers".  They were bigger, faster, had more and larger guns than the smaller torpedo boats, which had little more than some rapid fire guns and torpedoes.

Sort of like PT boats, in fact.  I agree that sending a TF of 2-4 DD's would do a number on even a large group of PT's, just as they did IRL.



castor troy -> RE: Best way to Kill PT Boats? (7/28/2008 8:46:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Destroyers were originally named "torpedo boat destroyers".  They were bigger, faster, had more and larger guns than the smaller torpedo boats, which had little more than some rapid fire guns and torpedoes.

Sort of like PT boats, in fact.  I agree that sending a TF of 2-4 DD's would do a number on even a large group of PT's, just as they did IRL.



no, surely not like they did IRL. In the game (not just in my games, but in most of the AARs I´ve been reading too) you will lose one DD for 5 PTs sunk, another DD heavily damaged from cal .50 and 20mm Oerlikon fire. Of course there were not nearly as many encounters between PTs and DDs IRL like there are in the game.



Coach Z -> RE: Best way to Kill PT Boats? (7/28/2008 9:15:04 PM)

When I sent an IJN CL & 2 Destroyers to take care of the problem...thinking things would be like IRL....BUt I got both DDs beat up and then one DD later finished off by the PTs all for the loss of 1 PT Boat.



niceguy2005 -> RE: Best way to Kill PT Boats? (7/29/2008 12:12:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Destroyers were originally named "torpedo boat destroyers". They were bigger, faster, had more and larger guns than the smaller torpedo boats, which had little more than some rapid fire guns and torpedoes.

Sort of like PT boats, in fact. I agree that sending a TF of 2-4 DD's would do a number on even a large group of PT's, just as they did IRL.



no, surely not like they did IRL. In the game (not just in my games, but in most of the AARs I´ve been reading too) you will lose one DD for 5 PTs sunk, another DD heavily damaged from cal .50 and 20mm Oerlikon fire. Of course there were not nearly as many encounters between PTs and DDs IRL like there are in the game.

I have never seen this personally. I have seen a posting of it once. It's my belief that it is an extreme case. Most PTs are sunk without ever firing a shot. I rarely see Japanese DDs go down due to PT torpedos. If I was an IJ player I would worry a lot more about the DD TF still being under allied air space during the daylight phase than I ever would that a PT was going to sink one.

Also odds matter. If you send in 2 DDs to attack 6 PTs you're asking to get one sunk. As you can imagine IRL PTs might well overwhelm the guns of a DD if they surge at once, so too can it happen in the game. To take on 6 PTs I would want 4+ DDs and if you're not worried about allied air daylight encounters are preferable.

Of course surprise matters as well, so recon, recon, recon. Raise the detection level of the PT group and reduce the chance of getting your DDs surprised.



niceguy2005 -> RE: Best way to Kill PT Boats? (7/29/2008 12:13:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Coach Z

When I sent an IJN CL & 2 Destroyers to take care of the problem...thinking things would be like IRL....BUt I got both DDs beat up and then one DD later finished off by the PTs all for the loss of 1 PT Boat.

How many PT boats? What were the conditions? Were the PTs spotted?



Andvari -> RE: Best way to Kill PT Boats? (7/29/2008 12:44:56 AM)

See also this thread from just a couple of weeks ago, Zeroes on Naval Attack Against PTs:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1853318




niceguy2005 -> RE: Best way to Kill PT Boats? (7/29/2008 12:48:09 AM)

Indeed.  I have not only seen it, I posted in it. [;)]



Coach Z -> RE: Best way to Kill PT Boats? (7/29/2008 2:34:05 AM)

Yes the PT Boats were spotted, for several days previous. His PT Boat TFs spotted every turn.
I have a base @ Koumac, the PT's are based @ Noumea and we are fighting over La Foa on New Caledonia.


Here is one incident:

Night Time Surface Combat, near Koumac at 67,111

Japanese Ships
DD Yukaze, Shell hits 8,  on fire

Allied Ships
PT PT-115, Shell hits 3, and is sunk
PT PT-116
PT PT-118
PT PT-119
PT PT-120
 UNBELIEVABLE>>>53 SYS Damage from this incident!
 
They returned the next day and finished her off w/10 more shell hits and 1 torpedo.
 




Gem35 -> RE: Best way to Kill PT Boats? (7/29/2008 2:39:46 AM)

well you can't expect good results with only one destroyer.



niceguy2005 -> RE: Best way to Kill PT Boats? (7/29/2008 2:57:48 AM)

Coach.  I saw that result in the first post.  All I can say is very atypical.  I've never seen anything like it.  I have seen small caliber weapons start fires on tankers which leads to 10-20 sys damage, but never anything like that from 8 shell hits.  I'd say it's mostly a fluke.  I have seen 8 to 30 shell hits before.  Usually sys damage will be on the order of 0-10 from .50 cal and 20mm.

As a rule I would send more ships...whatever you have.  I would rather have 5 PGs trying to shoot at PTs than 1 DD.  



John Lansford -> RE: Best way to Kill PT Boats? (7/29/2008 1:56:35 PM)

The small caliber weapon damage subroutines are all screwed up in this game.  I've sunk AK's using only the AA suite on a surfaced submarine (40mm and 20mm hits, no deck gun or torpedoes), and seen PT boats maul much bigger ships with their guns too.  Not seen as much damage from strafing planes vs ships but that's because I don't have them do that very often.

0.50 caliber machine guns shouldn't be disabling destroyer main gun turrets and creating floatation damage on any ship larger than a minesweeper, though.  For that matter, neither should 20mm or 40mm hits.



Feinder -> RE: Best way to Kill PT Boats? (7/29/2008 2:36:31 PM)

Well, they're made of plywood, so...

Termites!

-F-



niceguy2005 -> RE: Best way to Kill PT Boats? (7/29/2008 4:37:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

The small caliber weapon damage subroutines are all screwed up in this game. I've sunk AK's using only the AA suite on a surfaced submarine (40mm and 20mm hits, no deck gun or torpedoes), and seen PT boats maul much bigger ships with their guns too. Not seen as much damage from strafing planes vs ships but that's because I don't have them do that very often.

0.50 caliber machine guns shouldn't be disabling destroyer main gun turrets and creating floatation damage on any ship larger than a minesweeper, though. For that matter, neither should 20mm or 40mm hits.

I've never seen this. I guess I should insert the caveat that I have rarely played past 6/43, so maybe the PTs are modified in some way that extends their abilities. I can honestly say I have never, ever seen a PT boat sink an undamaged AK/AP/TK (or DD for that matter) with only small caliber guns. I have seen them hit them and cause some damage. For a sanity check it usually takes more than 1 torp to sink an AK.

Note, it could be possible for a PT or AK to sink some AKs in mods with guns. Some of those AKs are just wooden yachts.

Edit: I will again assert that the vast majority of witp PT engagements could be summarized by 6 PTs meet any surface group numbering more than 1 or 2 ships; 2 PTs sunk without firing a shot; task forces disengage.



John Lansford -> RE: Best way to Kill PT Boats? (7/29/2008 4:55:09 PM)

I've had PT boats shoot up AK's but not sink them with gunfire alone, but I have seen a sub do it without using either the deck gun or torpedoes.  Apparently the AK was carrying fuel, because one of the hits generated the "fuel cargo burning" notice and it sank afterwards.



niceguy2005 -> RE: Best way to Kill PT Boats? (7/29/2008 5:17:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

I've had PT boats shoot up AK's but not sink them with gunfire alone, but I have seen a sub do it without using either the deck gun or torpedoes. Apparently the AK was carrying fuel, because one of the hits generated the "fuel cargo burning" notice and it sank afterwards.

This IS one of the real a-historical things I see happening. While it seems within the realm of possibility that a stray 50 cal bullet could ignite fuel, the likely hood would be a one in a million shot. Obviously the game favors that outcome way too much. My experience with fire damage is that it is never enough to sink a ship alone.



Q-Ball -> RE: Best way to Kill PT Boats? (7/29/2008 5:21:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

Folks, dealing with PTs isnt THAT hard.  The way you kill PT boats is with destoryers....period. 



I have to agree with previous posters: Using DD's is not advised. I have experienced what Castor said, about 1 DD for every 5-6 PTs, which is not good math for the Empire. I have seen 20mm hits too, not a ton, but enough to put a couple DDs in the shop for awhile.

FB's are the best way, though that doesn't work either if the Allies have fighter cover.

My biggest gripe on PT's is the ability to refuel from Subs or transports. That ability allows them to patrol off IJN bases without trips back to refuel, very annoying.



Coach Z -> RE: Best way to Kill PT Boats? (7/30/2008 2:29:42 PM)

Unfortuantely its August 1942 and Japan has no FB in my current game.
My ANNS @ 100 ft actually hit them last turn and sunk 1.



Q-Ball -> RE: Best way to Kill PT Boats? (7/30/2008 4:21:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Coach Z

Unfortuantely its August 1942 and Japan has no FB in my current game.
My ANNS @ 100 ft actually hit them last turn and sunk 1.


You should get some Nick FB's pretty soon, and PT busting is about all they're really good at. If your opponent can get some CAP up though, look out, your Anns and Nicks will all hit the water.



niceguy2005 -> RE: Best way to Kill PT Boats? (7/30/2008 7:26:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball


quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

Folks, dealing with PTs isnt THAT hard. The way you kill PT boats is with destoryers....period.



I have to agree with previous posters: Using DD's is not advised. I have experienced what Castor said, about 1 DD for every 5-6 PTs, which is not good math for the Empire. I have seen 20mm hits too, not a ton, but enough to put a couple DDs in the shop for awhile.

FB's are the best way, though that doesn't work either if the Allies have fighter cover.

My biggest gripe on PT's is the ability to refuel from Subs or transports. That ability allows them to patrol off IJN bases without trips back to refuel, very annoying.

It sounds like the problem is that you're opponent is playing a lunacy game....

PT's refueling from subs. [8|]



castor troy -> RE: Best way to Kill PT Boats? (7/31/2008 7:46:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Destroyers were originally named "torpedo boat destroyers". They were bigger, faster, had more and larger guns than the smaller torpedo boats, which had little more than some rapid fire guns and torpedoes.

Sort of like PT boats, in fact. I agree that sending a TF of 2-4 DD's would do a number on even a large group of PT's, just as they did IRL.



no, surely not like they did IRL. In the game (not just in my games, but in most of the AARs I´ve been reading too) you will lose one DD for 5 PTs sunk, another DD heavily damaged from cal .50 and 20mm Oerlikon fire. Of course there were not nearly as many encounters between PTs and DDs IRL like there are in the game.

I have never seen this personally. I have seen a posting of it once. It's my belief that it is an extreme case. Most PTs are sunk without ever firing a shot. I rarely see Japanese DDs go down due to PT torpedos. If I was an IJ player I would worry a lot more about the DD TF still being under allied air space during the daylight phase than I ever would that a PT was going to sink one.

Also odds matter. If you send in 2 DDs to attack 6 PTs you're asking to get one sunk. As you can imagine IRL PTs might well overwhelm the guns of a DD if they surge at once, so too can it happen in the game. To take on 6 PTs I would want 4+ DDs and if you're not worried about allied air daylight encounters are preferable.

Of course surprise matters as well, so recon, recon, recon. Raise the detection level of the PT group and reduce the chance of getting your DDs surprised.



amazing that you´ve seen that only once, it happens all the time, mentioned in many AARs. [&:]



laien607 -> RE: Best way to Kill PT Boats? (8/5/2008 7:36:59 AM)

PT is the nightmare of the beginner!



jeffs -> RE: Best way to Kill PT Boats? (8/11/2008 9:57:45 AM)

But in real life, there were lucky hits. One of the first Japanese DDs sunk (IRL) was nailed at Wake when
an F4-3 strafed it. Apparently the pilot put some bullets into the depth charges and they went boom..

Bye, bye DD.



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