Linux version in works??? (Full Version)

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JaseP -> Linux version in works??? (4/6/2002 4:42:33 PM)

Would it be possible to get a Linux version of this Title. It looks really good and I think a Linux version would boost sales of the game. I've already posted a link to the site for Starships Unlimited on the Linux forum I frequent...

I am sure there are a lot of programmers who would be willing to take on the responsibility of porting the game to Linux.



Andrew Ewanchyna -> (4/6/2002 9:48:28 PM)

While, technically, Linux may be head and shoulders above Windoze, I've always heard that Linux wasn't the greatest O/S for selling stuff on.



bobcat -> Linux (4/8/2002 8:35:59 PM)

Actually, that is a myth that has some basis, but needs to be qualified.

This bit about games not selling comes from 3 places. One source is the makers of Shogo who have gome online and blasted how poorly Shogo sold on Linux. Never mind the game was YEARS old and every one who might have ever bought it could get it for $1.99 in the bargin bin. Same thing for Sin. It never even sold well on Windows and was so full of bugs you couldn't even finish the game. Then years later, they put it on Linux and expect it to sell. Not gonna happen when You can get it for next to nothing and run it under Windows.

The last place that the poor sales remark comes up is in Quake 3 sales. When Quake 3 came out, you had to recompile your desktop and compile in your own 3D drivers and you had to have a 3DFX Voodoo chipset. Not exactly things that foster alot of game sales.

Those days are long gone now thanks to nVidia. 3D support is a download away and is no harder than installing drivers under Windows.

Brian Hook says on his website that Linux games have almost infinite shelf life. Games that sell well, do so for a long time, due to less competition.

On http://www.canux.com a Linux online seller (moved on to new Linux projects) says his best selling software were all Linux games.

I'd say that if you want some sales figures, check with http://www.tuxgames.com and ask them. They may impart some sales info to a potential Linux game developer.

I do know that every single copy of every single Linux game has sold out of Best Buy, & Electronics Boutique locally, and Amazon and EB online are all sold out of most every Linux game as well. Somebody is buying them.

I almost forgot to mention:
Return To Castle Wolfenstein came out for Linux, and Never Winter Nights from Bioware is shipping with Linux binaries in the box. Not to mention Terminus came with Linux binaries as well.

ID, Activision, Bioware and Vicarious Visions (to name few) all feel Linux is important enough to write for now.



Andrew Ewanchyna -> (4/8/2002 9:02:50 PM)

Interesting stuff but I was referring to the notion that Linux users are use to not paying for software, so don't. Myth?

Also your statement, "Brian Hook says on his website that Linux games have almost infinite shelf life. Games that sell well, do so for a long time, due to less competition." seems to contradict your earlier paragraphs.

Funny thing is, my father, of all people, has recently moved to Linux. So far it's a love/hate relationship. As for me, I've developed on Unix systems for most of my developer's career so I know the power Linux holds. I'll have to check out those links. If anything, I figured that the Mac was a better platform for porting games.



bobcat -> Linux (4/9/2002 12:02:23 AM)

The Mac OS/X runs on Unix (Free BSD / Darwin) now. If you port to the Mac, I think it's a pretty quick recompile away from running on Linux too.

Here's the Brian Hook quote:
"Financial reasons: If a program is done right from the start, the cost to move it to new platforms is small, but the potential for extra sales increases. Mac and Linux users do tell their friends about software they like, and they tend to be very vocal in their praise of the companies that are willing to support their platforms. Games for Linux tend to have an infinite shelf life, whereas their Win32 counterparts tend to land in the bargain bin in a month or so. "

Here's the link to the page:
http://www.pyrogon.com/about/diary/2_26_2002.php

Note that this is just a quote. Obviously there are limits to how old a program is and how well it will sell and how many pontential customers already have access to the Windows version.

DOH! HUGE GAFF!!!! This is a quote from Ryan Gordon not Brian Hook. I got confused because I was following links to "Brian Hooks Candy Cruncher". DOH! Sorry about that. Still interesting though.



Andrew Ewanchyna -> (4/9/2002 8:14:37 AM)

Not sure if that article was suppose to encourage or discourage me from entering the Linux fray. More the latter, I think.



JaseP -> (4/9/2002 1:08:58 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Andrew Ewanchyna
[B]Not sure if that article was suppose to encourage or discourage me from entering the Linux fray. More the latter, I think. [/B][/QUOTE]

Don't think of it that way. There are many Linux programmers that would agree to a non-disclosure agreement and port the code for you. They might do it for just [expletive deleted] and giggles or for a modest royalty. As long as your sources are well documented, they could do it fairly easily. The hardest part is exchanging DirectX for OpenGL. You have to do that for porting to MAC anyway...

If the Linux people do it for you, then you can use that to make the OS X port easier...

Think about it.



Andrew Ewanchyna -> (4/9/2002 9:44:57 PM)

Unfortunately, my code is undocumented assembly. Knew I should have picked a higher level language! :D

Seriously, I'm far too paranoid to release source code to anyone (including Matrix Games). :eek:

Anyways, there are emulators that you can run on Linux to run this game. I know that people have done it with the shareware version. Don't see why it wouldn't work with Divided Galaxies.



bobcat -> Buying games (4/9/2002 9:45:59 PM)

Heh.
Well, it was SUPPOSED to encourage you. Haha.

Well. Back to buying games, I've bought a ton of games in the last year. All for Linux. I base all my purchases on Linux, and really really hate buying games that don't run on it. It's such a pain to boot to Windows because everything else I use is in Linux. (Grip MP3, Netscape, Yahoo IM, lopster/napster, Ogle DVD, and so on). I buy Linux games and I know others who do as well.

I'm done badgering you though. Thanks for thinking about a port. That's more than alot of developers do.

bobcat

Owner of (Linux Games):
Terminus
Quake 1,2, & 3
Unreal Tournement
Soldier Of Fortune
RTC Wolfenstein
Sim City 3000
Heroes Of Might & Magic 3
Heretic II
Railroad Tycoon 2
Kohan
Tribes 2
Alpha Centuari
Descent 3
Myth II

Future owner of:
Rune 1 & 2
Mind Rover

Anxiously awaiting the release of:
Never Winter Nights
Nomads
Zenrai
Trade Wars Dark Millenium



bobcat -> Emulators (4/9/2002 9:49:40 PM)

Ewww. WINE eh? No thanks. It's a mess. Constant crashing, graphic speed and sound problems. That is, even if a game will install at all. Not to mention it doesn't work with copy protection.



zorach -> (4/10/2002 2:34:10 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Andrew Ewanchyna
[B]Interesting stuff but I was referring to the notion that Linux users are use to not paying for software, so don't. Myth?[/B][/QUOTE]

Myth, with some sort of basis in reality. I bought D3 for linux despite having the Windows version; I bought Terminus (primarily to play under Linux), I've bought Mathematica and I also have a nice proud copy of the GIMP 1.0 CD (which I could have just downloaded).

Now, like anyone, no Linux user in their right mind is going to purchase something they can get for free. So I'm not going to buy StarOffice, when I can get OpenOffice, and I'm certainly not going to buy the WP suite. Honestly, though, for me free-as-in-speech is far more important than free-as-in-beer: I'm likely to buy open source stuff that has a packaged version if I think it's worthwhile. Since the tendency under Linux is to try to get a complete across-the-board setup entirely free-as-in-speech, there's a lot out there that's free in both senses, which attracts some leeches that are only there for free-as-in-beer.

All in all, most Linux users who wouldn't just plain pirate the game under Windows would be willing to pay for a Linux version. I'd personally suggest using the Simple Direct media Layer (SDL), http://www.libsdl.org/
It might not be wise to port SUDG right now, but for your next project this could make the whole business very painless.

One more thing to be aware of: One thing Linux users hate is to pay for the game twice. Ideal is to have both binaries on the same CD in the same box--makes stuff nice and available (Terminus did this). Otherwise one of two options: Linux version released about the same time, or have the Linux binaries available for download to work in tandem with the Windows data files. Unfortunately for SU, most of the content's in the code, not art and level data. But releasing a linux version well after the Windows version, with no upgrade path, means the dual-boot audience will just ignore the Linux version.

I'd love to see a Linux version though :)



MacCready -> (4/10/2002 3:39:12 AM)

What possible atvantage would there be in anyone running linux?

Ok its supposed to be(or is)a more stable operating system.

Problem is not many users=not much software.

I can understand a die hard linux person wanting to change that though.

Linux to me is a viable way to Rebel against the corporate giant Microsoft. But my addiction to quality software keeps me on Win
95 (233 mhz system) and Win 98SE (1333mhz system).

Im loathed to even go with a newer windows enviorment, 2000.ME'or the new one XP.



madmax88 -> (4/10/2002 10:41:26 AM)

How about a version for Ms-Dos 5.0 while you're at it. :D

I'll set my screen rez to 320x200. Reconnect my old adlib card and non-optical mouse... and my ancient keyboard without the #%& Windows keys. ;)



Andrew Ewanchyna -> (4/10/2002 9:54:32 PM)

Unless Microsoft screws up future version of Windows then I can't see Linux offering Windows too much competition in the home market (I'm assuming people play games at home rather than work ;).

Let's face it, Linux is still geared for the techie. Not sure what the state of driver support is on Linux but it can't be any better than the Windows Plug-and-Pray. I don't want to imagine the configuration nightmares I'd have under Linux. I could just see people contacting me about the Linux version that doesn't work with their ancient hardware, like the stuff madmax88 describes.

So porting the game to another system is one thing, supporting it is another. In this point, the Mac would be easier to work with. And doesn't the Mac have a larger market share that Linux anyways?

Zorach, let's face it, it's rare for someone to buy the same game for 2 platforms. Consider yourself the exception.



zorach -> (4/11/2002 12:40:40 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Andrew Ewanchyna
[B]Let's face it, Linux is still geared for the techie. Not sure what the state of driver support is on Linux but it can't be any better than the Windows Plug-and-Pray. I don't want to imagine the configuration nightmares I'd have under Linux. I could just see people contacting me about the Linux version that doesn't work with their ancient hardware, like the stuff madmax88 describes.[/B][/QUOTE]
Actually driver support is IMHO better under Linux; it's a little bit more involved but it does work rather than having to deal with random flakiness. I understand that Windows gaming has a lot of issues with program/driver/hardware interaction; this honestly is very rare under Linux. That's partly why I suggested SDL: code to the API, and it works. Honest.

[B][QUOTE]So porting the game to another system is one thing, supporting it is another. In this point, the Mac would be easier to work with. And doesn't the Mac have a larger market share that Linux anyways?[/B][/QUOTE]
Support-wise, I don't see much worries. Label it "limited support," set clear system requirements, however you like to do it. If you want, grab me and a few other zealots, throw us on a mailing list, and say "Talk to these guys; they'll feed me bug reports if my code's really the problem."

Market share: Linux has passed up the Mac total; desktop-wise they're close to equal. Now, many (or most) of those Linux installs *are* dual-boot systems, so Mac obviously has more exclusive desktops. However, once you're doing the port once, you've already opened a really big can of worms :). Even just for the mac port, I'd really recommend looking into the SDL/OpenGL combination. Code to those API's to start with, and other systems come almost for free.

[QUOTE][B]Zorach, let's face it, it's rare for someone to buy the same game for 2 platforms. Consider yourself the exception. [/B]
[/QUOTE]
'course I am; I tried to address that in my post. Not sure you'll sell very many Linux copies to people who have bought the Windows version--that approach killed Loki (well, that approach and good old-fashioned INCOMPETENCE). But you'll probably get some sales you wouldn't have otherwise if you make a Linux version available in some form. I probably wouldn't have preordered Terminus at full price if it weren't for the Linux version, for example. Only reason I didn't get Alpha Centauri for Linux was because I had the Windows version already. If the Linux version had been available when I bought SMAC, I would have gotten the Linux one, new, instead of a used Windows copy.

In short, there's additional revenue available. Cruiserloads? Nah. Enough to make it worthwhile? Probably. Pick your development environment carefully, and you'll be in pretty good shape to do "cheap" ports. I think somebody whipped up a simple SDL-based game (Minesweeper or something similar) and did the whole process from planning through coding to Be, Windows, Linux, Mac ports in a weekend. The porting was almost exclusively setting up the makefiles. The Terminus team obviously had their problems, but the multi-platform nature wasn't one of them. Bioware's doing NWN as a tri-platform game (drooool.....)

Obviously it's your call. But consider this: SUDG has some competition on the Windows platform from other 4X games and strategy games in general. It also, to be blunt, looks somewhat dated. Doesn't make it a bad game, but makes it a little bit lost in the clamour.

Now consider the Linux side. Competition? Nothing really in the space 4X genre; closest competitor would be SMAC--from a company that just underwent Chapter 7 dissolution. Bet there's a lot of people going to be buying *that* in the near future (although I might....could probably get it cheap). Other than that--freecraft? Appearace-wise, SUDG is up there, easily on a par with other offerings. So what you've got is a leaner field, and persons who generally are more likely to pick up a borderline title for Linux than for Windows.

I think it's worth a shot in some form, and I'd certainly love to see a Linux incarnation of SU at some point. If you pass, I understand, but I'd also be willing to give you some support in making the decision and in proceeding if you think the port's a good idea.



Andrew Ewanchyna -> (4/11/2002 8:22:30 PM)

I think I'd rather write something new than port SU to another platform. I think that you're severly underestimating the requirements, both during development and in support. You can't offer "limited support", what's the point?



zorach -> (4/11/2002 11:06:34 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Andrew Ewanchyna
[B]I think I'd rather write something new than port SU to another platform. I think that you're severly underestimating the requirements, both during development and in support. You can't offer "limited support", what's the point? [/B][/QUOTE]
'course, that's why I was suggesting a cross-platform API such as SDL for your next project, write something new that's designed with that in mind. As far as "limited support," it's possible. "Here's the stuff, you're pretty much on your own."

If you don't want to do it, of course, then there's certainly no point :)



madmax88 -> (4/12/2002 4:15:54 PM)

-or-
You could spend 7 years in college studying computer programming and write your own game.

In the end mate, you can never please everybody and all you do must have a potent commercially viable outcome.



zorach -> (4/13/2002 1:36:19 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by madmax88
[B]-or-
You could spend 7 years in college studying computer programming and write your own game.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Gee, or I could spend the six years I already have for my BS in CS and BA in physics and continue on with my astrophysics training once I've got enough money in the bank to do so. I rather resent the implication.

I *do* write code for a living at the moment (in a mixed environment as a matter of fact, so I have some understanding of cross-platform code). Maybe I will do a game at some point; I'm not sure. It's not really where my primary skills lie but it would be a stretching experience for sure. At the least, I think it's awesome that there are folks out there making stuff for my enjoyment, especially ones who are so involved in keeping in touch with the players.

Andrew seemed at least interested in the possibility of a port, so I was trying to convey my understanding of the current state of both the market and toolset out there.



Stringer -> (4/14/2002 7:58:03 AM)

I think Linux is getting better and bigger everyday now. When the Lindows comes, it might even spread to home systems like Linux has never before; it might be the first system, not the second OS on computers that are just hanging on corners.

What comes to drivers and HW support, it its distribution spesific thing as fas as I see it. We just recently moved to Linux driven database server (from Windows2000+MS Sql server 2000, because normal pro windows limits remote accesses to 10 users at a same time). First we tried Redhat, but it didnt were able to start at all on our server. We heard later that it might have been because redhat was using some odd kernel optimized for AMD (the computer had AMD). Well, anyway, next we _bought_ SUSE and it worked great. Absolutly no need to do any hardware configuration, everything worked just fine (including network card and display card).

Because it worked so good on the work, I decided to install it for my second computer too. Im not using that computer for anything, so I dont have much to say about that. But if there were Linux games or ports that would be "must have", I wouldnt hesitate to buy em. Anyway, I have been thinking that when Lindows comes I might install it as my primary OS to my gaming computer and really start using it.

As what comes to this game, I think its like Linux. Not really a game the mass would play. More like game hardcore players play, and that makes Linux a good platform for it.



bobcat -> HW support (4/15/2002 9:03:00 AM)

The trick with Linux support, is to buy stuff that supported. For example, buy nVidia video cards. They have AWESOME drivers for Linux that install easy as pie. A quick reboot and you're in 3D heaven.

Not to mention that most hardware is trully plug and play. It works alot better than Windows in my experience. Just buy stuff that's known to work in Linux. You wouldn't buy a Mac portrait display for Windows, then bitch about it not working..... Same goes for Linux. Get supported hardware. It's not hard.

Is Linux harder than Windows? No. It's DIFFERENT.

All users are ignorant of all systems prior to use. Printing or saving a file is hard for every single user.

Give a newb BeOS and teach them how to use it, then switch them to Windows, and they will have trouble until they learn Windows and it becomes second nature.

Switch them to a Mac and they will have just as hard of a time. Same goes for Linux. It only seems hard until you use it for a little while.

Now you want an OS that's hard to use..... Try XP. Uhhgggg. What a butt ugly hideous mess that thing is.



JaseP -> (4/15/2002 8:57:02 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MacCready
[B]What possible atvantage would there be in anyone running linux?

Ok its supposed to be(or is)a more stable operating system.

Problem is not many users=not much software.

I can understand a die hard linux person wanting to change that though.

Linux to me is a viable way to Rebel against the corporate giant Microsoft. But my addiction to quality software keeps me on Win
95 (233 mhz system) and Win 98SE (1333mhz system).

Im loathed to even go with a newer windows enviorment, 2000.ME'or the new one XP. [/B][/QUOTE]

Not many users??? Try 20 million worldwide and growing. Granted, many of them are i the server market, but Linux is gaining momentum worldwide. I hear France and Germany are switching to Linux for Gov't uses. As the system gets easier and easier to install, users are popping up all the time. Soon, most Linux boxes will be able to run most Win9X software using either Lindows, Wine, WineX (none of which are really emulation, so much as intercept and translation of system calls) or an emulation software like vmware.

Not much software??? Granted the commericial software is limited, but there are titles to be found for virtually everything else. Quake1-3, Castle Wolfenstein 3D, SimCity 3000, FAKK2, Tribes2, Alpha Centuri, The Sims, and several other titles are available in Linux native. Other titles will run under WineX (Jedi Knight, Fallout 1&2&Tactics, etc.) by Transgaming (go to the transgaming website to see a list of games that people have gotten to run under Linux). Word processors and web browsers can be found for free, as are programming tools (full APIs for various open-source things such as OpenGL are available). CD burning software is generally free, and many times it is superior to its Windoze counterparts. Database software is free, as are database serving software,...

Linux has built in firewalling (something that wasn't available until WinXPee). Linux is a multi-user operating system by default (so a different login for each family member,... no more screwing up your settings). There are virtually no native viruses that attack Linux (maybe 12 to Windoze's 200,000),... and no way to get software to install itself automatically like in Windoze, so no web based infection. E-mail under Linux has features only found in expensive business productivity products, such as filtering of e-mails (if it's not addressed to you specifically, you can have it automatically be dumped to the deleted mail bin). Linux distros usually come with a choice of about 5-6 web browsers, 2-3 word processors, 1-3 e-mail programs, 20+ games (tetris clones, mahjongg clones, some 3D stuff). Games under Linux generally run 20% or better more efficiently than their Windoze counterparts (less OS overhead). Linux is generally more secure than Windoze. Linux boxes can be set up to be anything from servers (print, e-mail, fax, file, database) to desktop machines. Linux is gaining in the embedded device market as well (PDAs, Cell Phones, the PlayStation2,... etc.). Linux is more likely to have working emulators for consoles than Windoze (again, the PS2 connection may bear fruit soon).

So, yeah, I can't see any advantage to switching to Linux either,...
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:



JaseP -> (4/15/2002 9:31:38 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Andrew Ewanchyna
[B]Unless Microsoft screws up future version of Windows then I can't see Linux offering Windows too much competition in the home market (I'm assuming people play games at home rather than work ;).

Let's face it, Linux is still geared for the techie. Not sure what the state of driver support is on Linux but it can't be any better than the Windows Plug-and-Pray. I don't want to imagine the configuration nightmares I'd have under Linux. I could just see people contacting me about the Linux version that doesn't work with their ancient hardware, like the stuff madmax88 describes.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Granted Windoze is the OS of the technically,... challe... no,... stupid. But that is changing fast. User to user support is unprecidented with Linux. Have a problem?,... about 20 users will fight over themselves trying to help you solve it.

Microshaft has already screwed up badly with Windoze XPee. Their product activation code crap and their push towards software and OS renting instead of purchasing has alienated tons of users. It will continue to alienate users as it becomes clear that they want to hold you hostage to upgrades and force you to continue to pay for products that you already own. Their developers are following a similar model. Ever try to use a 2 yr old version of accounting software to import data to you latest tax program??? They force you to upgrade at the cost of about $200.00 or more. Also the cosmetic changes of the OS have angered a lot of veteran users. XPee by default goes into this new cartoonish view. Upgrade yuour machine and you have to call M$ to get a new product activation code. Your OS shuts down if you don't have one or fail to get one. It then holds all of your other software hostage.

So, don't count on M$ greed to change.

[QUOTE]
So porting the game to another system is one thing, supporting it is another. In this point, the Mac would be easier to work with. And doesn't the Mac have a larger market share that Linux anyways?

Zorach, let's face it, it's rare for someone to buy the same game for 2 platforms. Consider yourself the exception. [/B][/QUOTE]

Most Linux users don't care much about support. They only care about having a product that runs native on their system. If a Linux binary was released as an unsupported download, then They'd buy the game.

besides, Linux users buy both platforms all the time, just so they can run it on their favorite OS. You'd be very surprised in fact.



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