The decision to buy Harpoon (Full Version)

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tpope -> The decision to buy Harpoon (8/6/2008 9:37:32 PM)

So after playing a demo about 6 years ago, watching (from a safe distance, and only intermittantly) some of the history and trauma unfold, downloading the demo again and posting questions on this forum, I finally decided to buy Harpoon on Sunday.

This has been an interesting process. Far more interesting than any other computer game purchase has been in the past, and arguably far more "interesting" than it should have been. So, I wanted to provide an AAR of sorts to the process, in the hopes that it will either allow the next person to make an informed decision or provide the developers and publishers with feedback that is useful, or hopefully both.

The Good

  • Herman Hum. Between answering every question I had on this forum, a handful more over IM and offering to play a MP scenario once I'd taken the plunge, Herman pretty much single handedly convinced me to buy this game, rather than wait another few years.
  • FreekS, VDCH and other forum members. Many other folks here were quick to answer my questions as well, usually within hours of posting. The answers were not always what I wanted to hear, but the general amount of attention to the forums and helpfulness was a big plus. The fact that several prople have very strong (often negative) feelings and are STILL willing to answer questions here is impressive.
  • Likewise, answers to questions by rsharp was another big plus. Seeing that a lot of my complaints with the demo are being actively addressed by the developers mitigated a lot of my worries.
  • The demo. Bugs, problematic features and UI aside, the core game engine still does what it is supposed to to. Being particularly interested in as high a realism quotient as possible, I can't really express how cool it was the first time I launched Harpoons from a P3, watched them fall off my scope as the plane turned away, then watched them come back on as their active seekers lit up, and then seeing them disappear when they reached the target, though with no indication of damage until the follow-up plane got close enough to confirm destruction. That was a small moment, but something that you couldn't find in any other game, and pleased me all out of proportion to it's importance in the grand scheme of things.


The Bad

  • ANW vs HCE. The fact that two games exist at all, and that there is no clear reason WHY two games exist, is a serious stumbling block in the process. The FIRST line in every FAQ on the Matrix and AGSI websites and forums should answer this question. I realize it's not an easy question to answer cleanly, but it needs to have an answer, and that answer needs to be easy to find and understandable.
  • The demo. When the demo contains mostly tutorials, and those tutorials don't work as stated in the manual, this is a serious problem. There is no need to harp on this, it's being fixed shortly. One thing I would suggest however is to fix ALL flakiness in the tutorials, even if the fix is forced. For something like the bug about not shooting at unarmed targets, if a fix doesn't make it into 3.9.4 then give the overflying planes a light weapon that will trip the ship's auto defense AI. Make certain that when the manual says "do X and you will see Y" that you really get that effect in all 8 tutorials.
  • The bugs. As above, no reason to harp on these. They exist, they need to get fixed, and they're getting fixed.


The Ugly

  • UI annoyances. I'm not looking for a beautiful game here. If I want pretty explosions, I can always get my fix playing Fleet Command or Dangerous Waters. But there is a significant amount of clunkiness in the interface, and a fair bit of it isn't even tied to the windowing engine, but is just odd design choices. This was a serious turnoff when I played the demo however many years ago, and even now, with multi-monitor support (sort of) and some fixes, was basically a lead weight dragging down my initial impulse to buy the game.
  • The flamewars on the forum. I don't see a solution to this, it simply is what it is. If "The Bad" are fixed above, it'll have much less of an effect on whether or not you get a sale, since you'll be seeing existing customers coming in hopefully more often than people looking for help to make their decision.


In the end, I made my choice because of the good, despite the bad and with the ugly looming in the background. When all is said and done, I'm not at all sorry I bought the game, and as I said in the beginning I hope that this has some small value in suggestions to make this process easier for the next person.




Anthropoid -> RE: The decision to buy Harpoon (8/6/2008 9:57:14 PM)

I bought it with a lot less cogitation than you gave it. Can't say I disagree with anything you've said, but maybe add my two cents.

I agree on the Tutorial. Kinda annoying to read in the manual that something is gonna happen then something slightly different happens.

Also agree on the UI, or at least I think I do. I noticed some of the buttons are 'not reachable' by the mouse cursor in some screen resolutions.

On the whole, I'm taking this one slowly. It took me about 4 or 5 months to get the manual PDF on a machine that I could print it from. Having now done that (and put it in a nice three-hole-punch binder), I've made up through 4 or 5 of the tutorials. Might make a bit more progress in a few days, and maybe even play a scenario within the next month. I figure eventually I'll figure it out and it'll be fun! [:D]




ssclark -> RE: The decision to buy Harpoon (8/6/2008 10:23:03 PM)

Tpope, I pretty much share your sentiments.

I recently bought the game, and Herman was very helpful in enlightening me, esp. when the tutorials turned out to have some "show stopping" problems. His pointing out the there are other databases out there, including his own PlayersDB, that fix many of those problems, was instrumental in my buying the game.

Maybe new players like us can help move the game and community forward from what appear (to me) to be the two big rifts in the H3 community: the rival database factions and the critics vs. AGS on bug reporting/fixing. Or, maybe we can't. Lots of bad blood there.





rsharp@advancedgamin -> RE: The decision to buy Harpoon (8/6/2008 11:55:37 PM)

Thanks for the feedback. It's rare to get such in depth feedback on the purchase decision.

Let me take this chance to say that we've fixed two issues that impacted the tutorials in the betas of 3.9.4. Unarmed (or non-threatening) craft will be engaged and f6 will no longer force a craft to weapons tight.

Again, thanks for your feedback.




Anthropoid -> RE: The decision to buy Harpoon (8/7/2008 3:44:05 AM)

Hey Russ, I'm playing ANW I think, is that the same game as this thread?

Anyway, the issue I had with the tutorial was pretty minor. In Tut3 I think, the one about air contacts and shooting missiles, there was supposed to be an air contact, then another air contact, then a boat, something like that. What I actually experienced was slightly different.

It was only mildly bewildering to me, so no big deal about fixing it. But if you guys like feedback, that was the one thing about it the game that kinda (sorta) threw me for a loop (for about five minutes).

Honestly, when I bought it back in like Feb, I got all fired up as usual with a new game (I'm sure all you gameaholics know what I'm talkin' bout) installed it, opened it up, started left-clicking and right-clicking like a madman and found a user interface that was much less like any "game candy" game I ever met in my life (note, not a criticism, just an observation). At first I got kinda peeved, then I went and looked at some of your websites and stuff and realized: this is not your average computer game. Then I reread the Matrix blurb I had read that had prompted me to buy it (I'm a WiTP player and was hankering for a bit more modernesque sorts of naval-air simulation fun) and realized: there is no secret about this, it is not your average computer game. Its a frickin' computer game built off a Cold War military trainer APP!! How cool is that! At that point I simmered down quite a bit and just said, "Oh. Okay, I guess I need to read the manual then, and treat this like I'm a new recruit in a military training sequence if I really wanna learn how to play it."

So that is what I've done since then: when I had the time I went and printed out the manual--took me a total of 15 min to remember to put the CD in my backpack, and when I arrived at my office, take it out, install it on my work machine, and then print it out, plus about 10 min to 30-hole punch it--but 4 or 5 months to remember to PUT IT _IN_ the backpack and TAKE it to work . . . Anyway, once that manual was in hand in print, it was pretty quick (couple hours??) getting through Tutorials 1 through 4 . . . That a bottle of Bourbon and I'm a pretty satisfied customer.

Lookin' forwad to explorin' this baby and blowing up some **** [:D], or actually blowing up MORE **** than my opponent!




hermanhum -> Harpoon (8/7/2008 8:00:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tpope

The Good
  • Herman Hum. Between answering every question I had on this forum, a handful more over IM and offering to play a MP scenario once I'd taken the plunge, Herman pretty much single handedly convinced me to buy this game, rather than wait another few years.

That's very generous of you to say so, but all I did was provide what I believed to be factual data. Some folks are scared away by the responses while others are able to tolerate the situation and embrace the game. That's the way it should be.

In the past, folks were banned for simply mentioning problems. Now, it's all out in the open and no one gets to hide unpleasantness. I'm just honoured to aid the process in some small way. [8D]

quote:

ORIGINAL: tpope

The Ugly
  • UI annoyances. I'm not looking for a beautiful game here. If I want pretty explosions, I can always get my fix playing Fleet Command or Dangerous Waters. But there is a significant amount of clunkiness in the interface, and a fair bit of it isn't even tied to the windowing engine, but is just odd design choices. This was a serious turnoff when I played the demo however many years ago, and even now, with multi-monitor support (sort of) and some fixes, was basically a lead weight dragging down my initial impulse to buy the game.

I also utterly despise the UI. After a few hundred games, you just have to either learn to deal with it or find another game to play. It's as simple as that. After a few thousand clicks in just the first week I played H3, I thought that I would die from a Repetitive Stress Injury like Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. [:D]




hermanhum -> Harpoon (8/7/2008 8:05:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Anyway, the issue I had with the tutorial was pretty minor. In Tut3 I think, the one about air contacts and shooting missiles, there was supposed to be an air contact, then another air contact, then a boat, something like that. What I actually experienced was slightly different.

This was one of the things we fixed with the PlayersDB version of the Tutorials. What happened was that the Tutorials specified two aerial contacts were supposed to appear on your radar screen, but only one actually appears. This is due to one plane diving below the radar horizon and, thus, never appearing. It's a quick fix and will hopefully be incorporated when he revised tutorial sessions are released.




tpope -> RE: The decision to buy Harpoon (8/7/2008 3:37:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rsharp@advancedgamin

Thanks for the feedback. It's rare to get such in depth feedback on the purchase decision.

You're quite welcome. It wasn't like any normal game purchase I've made since in this case the game is evenly split between research and entertainment for me. Add in finances such that I'm making a choice of this versus something else from my list for the next few months and I had to give it a lot of thought.

quote:

Let me take this chance to say that we've fixed two issues that impacted the tutorials in the betas of 3.9.4. Unarmed (or non-threatening) craft will be engaged and f6 will no longer force a craft to weapons tight.

That is fantastic news! ...and pretty much cements my "glad I made this purchase" position. [:)]

I'm looking forward to seeing 3.9.4 when it comes out.

Tom




ssclark -> RE: The decision to buy Harpoon (8/8/2008 2:04:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rsharp@advancedgamin

Thanks for the feedback. It's rare to get such in depth feedback on the purchase decision.

Let me take this chance to say that we've fixed two issues that impacted the tutorials in the betas of 3.9.4. Unarmed (or non-threatening) craft will be engaged and f6 will no longer force a craft to weapons tight.

Again, thanks for your feedback.


Great news! I look forward to the next patch.




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