Is This Game Playable Yet? (Full Version)

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LarryP -> Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/8/2008 10:09:11 PM)

I've been on the tall fence on this since it came out. I don't think I have seen so many complaints against any one game here at Matrix. My question though is a simple one, and that is:

Is this game playable yet for a non board game owner? [&:]



NeverMan -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/8/2008 10:17:44 PM)

If you are looking for Empires in Arms then no, its not.
If you are looking for a challenging AI then no, it's not.
If you don't have much experience with this game then the learning curve is going to be REALLY HIGH for you.

That said, I have experience with EiA (not so much with EiH, which is what this game really is). I have not found solo play to be interesting or entertainment at all, it's mostly just a time killer if you like wasting time. The PBEM games have been fun, as long as the pace is fast. If the pace is slow (I am in 1 game where the pace is VERY slow, ie 48 hour turnaround) then the game ceases to be fun.

All of this is, of course, JMO.



LarryP -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/8/2008 10:24:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

If you are looking for Empires in Arms then no, its not.
If you are looking for a challenging AI then no, it's not.
If you don't have much experience with this game then the learning curve is going to be REALLY HIGH for you.


Thanks for the quick response. [&o]

I am only looking for a good game to play, not Empires in Arms.
Challenging AI, yes that would be nice. [;)]
I have NO experience with this game in any way.

Well I guess I will move on then... thanks again. [:)]



Mardonius -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/8/2008 11:26:12 PM)

I really like it in our <24 turnaround game... Lots of fun.



pzgndr -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/9/2008 12:13:30 AM)

quote:

Is this game playable yet for a non board game owner?


This game has been playable since it was released. There are recognized issues with the interface, rules deviations, AI weaknesses and the rest, all of which Marshall Ellis and Matrix acknowledge and have resolved to fix. But the game is what it is, it is playable, and even the not-so-brilliant AI still provides a few challenges for players learning the game.

I never played EiA before, so despite all the complaints I've found it to be an interesting and fun game. Learning the interface itself takes some time, and then learning how to play each individual country takes considerable time. I've been enjoying the game at my own pace and patiently waiting for the ongoing improvements and enhancements. My recommendation for anyone interested in this classic turn-based Napoleonic grand strategy game is to get into it. Have fun with it. The fixes will eventually catch up and the game will be great. [8D]



fvianello -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/9/2008 12:41:32 AM)

The game is playable via PBEM with other players; solo games could help you to get a grip on some rules but that's all.
Anyway, as you probably already know, this is a very difficult game; even an experienced player could be unable to evaluate the domino effects of his choices.



Grapeshot Bob -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/9/2008 1:24:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LarryP
Is this game playable yet for a non board game owner? [&:]



As you can see from some of the comments above and elsewhere in these forums, this is a niche game.

It is pretty much functioning as a PBEM game. And it is pretty much aimed at those who play and like the board game.

Those of us that own the game are currently functioning as non-paid beta testers, because the game has been quite buggy.

The AI will help you learn how to move the pieces around the board.

There is no in-game tutorial.

And there are some people in these forums (not the developers, though) who think that is a perfectly fine state of affairs.

One day they might get it right but the game is not currently ready for solo play.



GSB



von altair -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/9/2008 2:16:18 AM)

I have been waiting for this game to be playable as well. I am a great fun of
Napoleonic era (played paper & sheet game called Austerlitz a alot). I am going to buy this game when it achieves a real "release status". It might take couple more months though.

So far I have been playing Crown of Glory which is quite similar game and quite good one. It also have ok AI.



LarryP -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/9/2008 2:47:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: von altair

So far I have been playing Crown of Glory which is quite similar game and quite good one. It also have ok AI.


I too play Crown Of Glory and enjoy it very much. I am also eagerly waiting for the Emperor's Edition to come out.

I don't play much PBEM so I would be playing against the AI. It looks like this game might be too much trouble for the $70. I may just pass. [X(]



Obsolete -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/9/2008 4:33:51 AM)

Some people prefer 48 hours.  Particular those who want to micro-mange everything and spend as much time re-evaluating the board as possible, then asking for input in between moves at the same time.





ndrose -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/9/2008 5:20:41 AM)

I'm curious what people think about the PBEM system at this point. I've been playing solo only (which I find pretty fun; yes, it's easy to beat the AI, but if you set yourself tasks that would be impossible in a real game, it can still be challenging), and holding off on PBEM until the game was stable. It seems like it pretty much is now.

I'm a little surprised that people seem to consider turnaround time so important. Granted, that was always the gamekiller when all you had was the board game and email. I tried it a couple of times, and we never got out of 1805. But the catch there was that you only had one map, so a single game monopolized it. If it didn't move fast, you got itchy.

But I would think that with EiANW, one of the chief advantages would be that you can save as many separate games as you want and always still have the game available. In that case, what's the time pressure? I'm thinking about jumping in on the PBEM side, and wondering what people's experience with this has been.



NeverMan -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/9/2008 5:28:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ndrose

I'm curious what people think about the PBEM system at this point. I've been playing solo only (which I find pretty fun; yes, it's easy to beat the AI, but if you set yourself tasks that would be impossible in a real game, it can still be challenging), and holding off on PBEM until the game was stable. It seems like it pretty much is now.

I'm a little surprised that people seem to consider turnaround time so important. Granted, that was always the gamekiller when all you had was the board game and email. I tried it a couple of times, and we never got out of 1805. But the catch there was that you only had one map, so a single game monopolized it. If it didn't move fast, you got itchy.

But I would think that with EiANW, one of the chief advantages would be that you can save as many separate games as you want and always still have the game available. In that case, what's the time pressure? I'm thinking about jumping in on the PBEM side, and wondering what people's experience with this has been.


Play a PBEM game where everyone waits 48 hours to post their turn and then come back and talk to me. You will quickly realize how uninterested you become in that game, especially if you have other games where the people are doing 1 month in 1 week (that's essentially a little over 1 phase per day, aka 7 turns altogether). You will quickly notice the difference and how much you think about one game as opposed to the other.

PBEM right now REALLY needs to be streamlined IN A BAD WAY!!! It's just too long. It's slower than F2F and it's a COMPUTER game...........think about it.



Marshall Ellis -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/9/2008 2:27:06 PM)

Neverman:

You forgot to add that it's still faster and easier than Cyberboard :-)




Thresh -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/9/2008 8:25:11 PM)

PBem will almost always be slower in FtF games, especially mutiplayer games with this level of complexity and interaction...

Todd



NeverMan -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/9/2008 8:35:58 PM)

Marshall: It's certainly faster than Cyberboard, mainly just due to the rules tradeoffs. I'm not sure it's easier at the moment, although I guess "piece moving"-wise, that is the case.

Thresh: I disagree. I think that with the current streamlining and more streamlining, enough tradeoffs can be made so that this game can be just as fast as f2f, IMO.



Thresh -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/9/2008 11:50:48 PM)

Neverman,

Having played EiA Ftf and PBM(snail mail) and PBeM for quiteawhile now, I can honestly say that FtF is the fastest way to play.  While you can streamline the process for PBeM, theres always going to be issues that crop up that slow the game down.

Todd



NeverMan -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/10/2008 12:06:24 AM)

Thresh,

Like what kind of issues?

I have played ftf, PBEM and ePBEM now and have must say that CURRENTLY, yes ftf is the fastest, followed by ePBEM (although it has it's drawbacks with bugs and rules deviations) and then PBEM.

I honestly think (obviuosly we can't test this yet) that ePBEM (if streamlined, aka: eco and dip phases simul, would be faster if reinf was simul too but apparently this isn't possible) could be the fastest, simply by virtue of adding the rules deviations and making all MP dips and ecos go together. That coupled with skipping some players turns (like Au and Pr navs), the game can be quite fast.



Thresh -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/10/2008 2:10:50 AM)

Diplomatic phases should not be simultaneous, as there are always events that crop up from time to time that players need to sort out.  Random DoW's, call to Allies, and the like.  And in a war, you might want to see where the enemies reinforcements are going.  Depends on the situation.

PBeM is always going to go at the speed of the slowest player.



NeverMan -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/10/2008 2:25:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thresh

Diplomatic phases should not be simultaneous, as there are always events that crop up from time to time that players need to sort out.  Random DoW's, call to Allies, and the like.  And in a war, you might want to see where the enemies reinforcements are going.  Depends on the situation.

PBeM is always going to go at the speed of the slowest player.



I agree about your slowest player comment. Some players feel that the max turnaround time is what their turnaround time should always be; however, I think that it's possible to play PBEM game (if streamlined) just as fast as a ftf. This is JMO. I could be wrong. Personally, I would love to see EiA implemented with IP play, but that's never going to happen (I don't mean EiANW in IP play, I mean EiA in IP play).



borner -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/10/2008 4:25:04 AM)

Neverman, Agreed on all points


Given that this is not a straight adaption of EiA to start with, I see no reason with Eco, and reinf phases being conducted jointly. That at least takes about 20% of waiting out of play.

As for the Dip phase, it can also be combined in my opinion. If you are worried about issues, give players 48 hours to get the phase in to talk things out. that is still going to be far faster than waiting for 7 players to get things in one at a time. Again, a trade off from traditional Eia, but in my opinion well worth it.

P.S. Marshall.... at the risk of sounding like I am __________, I personally would like to commend you for taking all out shots about the game (mine included), and keeping your cool.




Kai -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/10/2008 4:36:55 AM)

I've been playing it against the AI. 

I'm enjoying myself.  It's fun to play various powers and work out their strengths and weaknesses.

I like this game.  Worth the wait.   



LarryP -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/10/2008 5:05:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kai

I've been playing it against the AI.

I'm enjoying myself. It's fun to play various powers and work out their strengths and weaknesses.

I like this game. Worth the wait.


Do you find it hard to understand like I keep seeing in posts? What you said is what I wanted to hear by the way. [;)]



gazfun -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/10/2008 6:14:15 AM)

To LarryP
Well we are used to listening to this type of retoric and wining response from neverman, so I wouldnt take too much greedance to it actually. [>:]
Because you can play it as slow as you like or as fast as you like, its all to do with the people you are gaming with at the time.
We have 72hour, 48hour, 24hour turn arounds and we have 24 minute turn arounds, it all depends on how you manage it, and who you have to play with, and the time people have to play it.
[:D] I remember neverman saying that the game will never come out, and [sm=00000939.gif] you know and more [sm=00000939.gif] and he "never" seems to stop "man"
But i guess some people are never happy unless they have a grip hey
If you dont like it, then dont play it, if you want to do something other than complain, get some people together who want to play 24 minute turn arounds, there are people out there.
Streamlined or not it doesnt matter, its the people playing



NeverMan -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/10/2008 7:18:58 AM)

I'm not sure what greedance is gazfun, but maybe I have it, LOL.

24 hour turnaround is the only way to go. I agree with Borner about Marshall, taking all these jabs and staying postive, that's what you need as a business man with a new product.

I actually didn't think this thing would ever get released, and IMO, it still hasn't. Empires in Arms is OUT THERE SOMEWHERE waiting to be developed in IP play. Maybe one day we will all get lucky and see it happen by someone, somewhere out there, who knows.

This is NOT Empires in Arms. Any claim to be such is a fraud. It's Empires in Harms and nothing more. That's just fact.



LarryP -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/10/2008 3:38:40 PM)

Well it looks like what this game really needs since it is not cheap, is a good demo with the manual included. I know, some gamers say that demos are worthless, but I think the opposite. Demos have sold the game to me and otherwise. I have an acquaintance here on the forums that bought this game the day it was available, and he collects boardgames and has since childhood. He said that this game is unplayable because he doesn't know what to do next. This was before it was ever patched.

Like I said before, I will only play this game solo against the AI. The main reason is my physical condition and not being able to depend on myself to return a turn in a timely fashion. So that's the story here. [8D]

So is it playable against the AI yet? [&:]



pzgndr -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/10/2008 4:10:01 PM)

quote:

So is it playable against the AI yet?


Yes, it has been playable against the AI since it was released. Experienced players will not be challenged by the AI, but as a newcomer you should not be quickly frustrated by AI performance. As I alluded to earlier, there is much to learn about playing this game and playing each country. The AI may not be great, but it does perform fairly well and offers a few surprises. And it is getting noticeably better with updates, and should continue to do so.

I still find myself tripping over my own dumb mistakes about as often as I find something about the AI that irritates me. There is a steep learning curve to the game, regardless of whether it's 100% bug-free or not, and from my perspective the game and AI have been improving about as fast as I have been. I have not had the time to devote to this game, so as a patient and occassional player I've been able to enjoy playing the game against the AI. Like everyone else, I want to see the bugs fixed, the AI improved and enhanced, additional features implements, more scenarios and an editor added, etc., etc., etc. And yet, while we wait for all these things, the game is here and is playable. Marshall needs feedback from newcomers starting from scratch as much as he needs experienced "rules-lawyers" harping about every nitnoid deviation in the game.

Jump in and have some fun. [:)]



yammahoper -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/10/2008 7:52:18 PM)

The game is playable.

That said, the AI is not aggressive.  It does fight well enough, mostly defensively.  Its offensives are a bit more limited.  A very steady and patient approach will always win in the end, with a few exceptions.  Because the AI fights well, losing battles can change everything.  Some nations are easier to play than others.  The only nation I have played were the AI has been able to force me to surrender is Prussia.  The big French stack beat me down in three straigh battles and held my capital.  This was early in the game, and I noticed three game years later I was able to hold my own against the French armies because they had far to many militia, which waters down the morale, an edge the Fr should not easily surrender.

I have seen a few brilliant moves by the AI, but only a few, and I have tried many experiements.  Invading Russia as the Austrian I left my depots unprotected, but the cossacks never moved in and cut my suppply.  Seriously, the primary use of the Cossacks should be cutting or blocking the supply of invaders, or seizing minors when on the offensive if the minors capital lacks a garrison. 

After playing numerous games against the AI, I have learned to like the interface. 

yamma



testcase4321 -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/13/2008 2:47:08 AM)

Well, I think the answer depends on how you define you terms.

Is this game technically playable? Yes. The game has rules which both human and computer players follow. The game has a beginning and an end. The game makes sense. So yes, it is playable.

Are you trying to ask if the game is fun/challenging? If so, the answer is not really. In my view, the essence of a good strategy game is that you are challenged (in logical ways and with a bit of luck) during the early and mid game. By the end of the game your superior intellect should have allowed you to defeat your opponents. Unfortunately, this really isnt the case with EIA. 

Playing against the computer, you will likely never be challenged by the system. Players will write that this game is complex and that a computer can never match the brain power of a human player. This is of course contrary to the entire gaming industry where good games are measured by how they challenge their human players. Think any of the Civilization games, Close combat, Europa Universalis series, etc.

Playing against other people is much more challenging. However, this is also an extremely time consuming process. In a 'fast' game (where you have 24 hrs to process your turn), I think someone documented that one week of real time is needed to process each month of game time. This translates into over two years of real time to finish one game.

This is not to say that EIA has not improved over the last six months. It definitely has. The problem is that it just has a long way to go before I personally could recommend shelling out $70



cato13 -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/13/2008 2:51:27 PM)

im still sittin on the fence with this game as well.   ive never really been a fan of pbem due to how long games take to progress but just last sunday i started my 1st ever pbem game of witp and i must say ive been pleasantl surprised as me and my opponent are crankin out 2 turns a day which is a good pace. 

obviosly witp is a 1 vs game whereas this game could be a 6 player affair.  when people talk about 24 hour turn arounds what do they mean by that?  for eg.

does it mean that all players are takin their turns within 24 hours (good for me) or does it mean that each player is takin 24 hours = 6 players takin 24 hours = the game progresses 1 turn after 6 days (bad for me)?



RayKinStL -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/13/2008 3:20:52 PM)

Sadly, I think its 24 hours per phase, per player, per turn.

So with multiple phases in a turn, and 7 players each turn, one month of play could take days/weeks!



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