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antarctic -> (4/10/2002 1:30:11 PM)

Hello All.

It's been very interesting reading about the reasons people play SP:WAW. I wish to add mine.
I once saw this quote "war brings out both the best, and worst in man". I do not enjoy this game because I like the gore and violence of battle, but to celebrate those brave souls, whose mateship, loyalty and courage gave us the freedom many of us enjoy today.
It is to acknowledge the leadership abilities of the NCO's in the armed services. It is to acknowledge the intellect of the generals. It is to acknowledge the brilliant engineers who develope the technology. It is to acknowledge the countless men and women who have strived for the world in which we live today.

Antarctic



AmmoSgt -> (4/10/2002 2:12:58 PM)

Bernie ..you an old 55D ? I'm a old retired 55G.. Some of us did stuff we really can't talk about , really don't want to talk about ..WW2 was a simplier time in some ways .. some of the best days of my life were the worst days of my life...combat comes in many forms ...not wanting to offend anybody, but I do miss the the squadies and the jargon and the mission orientation..blue lights and red fenders and a high pucker factor are good things in memory ... I don't see it as an "everybody was just serving thier respective countries" I was on the side of freedom and the other guys were on the side of tyranny ..but it all got wrapped up in MAD ..WW2 was simplier in a few ways .. would that my service could have been in that day and age, and I could be a little prouder, and a little more open, about what I came to understand that I was doing. It all worked out in the end the "bad guys" realized what they were doing and the wall came down. Now we are talking about WMD all over again, and everything is politics and messy all over again ....War Games are fairly clean, they have rules, and you can have an actual winning side, thats a nice thought in this day and age. I got into wargames to increase my tactical profiency, I think they did. But what are tactics in an age of politics and total destruction? I don't have any problems with folks that play war games ... it's the ones that think they are morally superior for being ignorant of history or whats involved in making war, in their name, that bother me. I never thought there was much glory in what soliders do, but, by God, there is Glory in the way they do it . "Power to Spare" 59th Ord Bde ( 96th Ord Co , 557th FA/ 99th Ord Det, 294th FA/ 545 Ord Co, 72nd Ord Bn/ and a few tours stateside as an instructor at MMCS Redstone)



jlaurila -> (4/10/2002 5:49:29 PM)

well this is most interesting topic of them all.

been wondering myself for some time now why i like playing war
games, whats the reason i am so fond of war. havent quite figured it out yet, but i have some ideas where it comes from.

after i served my time in Finnish army, i've been more keen to
wargames than ever before, and war in general.
somehow i tried to get those wibes that my grandfathers generation had to go through
i wear our national symbol as my necklace (the lion stomping a sabre), i've sworn myself, that id die for this country
but still, i am not 'warcrazy' or anything like that, i want peace, i dont want to kill, nor get killed, but i will not run, like few of my mates at work say theyre gonna do, if war would ever arise its dirty face. atleast for the honour of my grandfathers generation.

been playing all kinds of comp. games since C-64, played many sorts of games, but most seem to deal with war, especially wwii
been studying my own emotions now and then, trying to understand why i like those games. maybe its trying to reason and understand war, trying to imagine whats has it been like.
and ever since my respect for people living and fighting 60 years ago has grown quite enormous.

some of you earlier said, that other people accuse you for playing 'realistic' wargames, saying that they'll make you one
trigger happy sob. what i've seen here and subsims forum, people playing war games that intend to be as real as it gets
are most intelligent people, who mostly respect each other.
and its been surprising how little agression i've seen on these boads.
but go to counter strikes or similar's forums. geesh, those guys are nervous trigger happy sobs. theyre the ones creating the idea of games leading to aggression, not us!

nuff'said. my 2c :)



kurtbj -> (4/10/2002 6:59:06 PM)

Just wanted to add that I think people who point fingers at Wargame fans are the people with a problem not us. Most of the type of wargames we talk about on this board involve leading units of men where you don't actually see any death/killing etc. Basically we play the role of commanders and generals.
Surely other games like Quake, Doom etc are more bloodthirsty (I don't have anything against first person shooters, I enjoy them too at times). Do other games like Tekken etc cause people to start fights, do empire building games cause people to become megalomaniacs. The majority of people play these games without any crossing between fantasy and reality, there are the odd exceptions but those people probably had problems to begin with.
If someone calls you a warmonger or other such insult then turn around and ask them questions about the war such as "Why did it start?" Why did we become involved?" "Why did so many of our soldiers give their lives?"..... I'd be surprised if they can answer, they are the people with their head stuck up their backside, not us.

Rant over :)

BTW, this is the best and most intelligent forum I've ever visited and thats why its the only one I keep coming back to.



Gen.Hoepner -> (4/10/2002 8:23:48 PM)

It's surely a very difficult question to answer,but it's something i think every one who's interested in war has in mind...at least once.
Personally I asked myself many times this question....but cannot find a definitive answer...probably there's not only one ,but a lot of possible answers melting togheder.
First of all....I feel the importance of War as the Dialectic engine of world's history...It's always been like that...for ages.Peace is an Uthopy....War is the reality of Human's nature.We're all genetically addicted to contrast,to envy,to the feeling of having more power in our hands.So war has always been the easiest way to supply these addictions. But there's something more I think.......In my opinion this "more" is rappresented by the appeal of the struggle,with no othersecondary meanings or aims.I do not know how to say it in english....what in italian we call AGONE PITTICO.....wich can be described as the same feeling that pushed the medieval knights to fight during the tournays just to feel the adrenaline of the match.....
But probably these are concepts that can be described by words.... The "Spirit of War"is something which i think lies in every man....our culture,our society,our conscience forces us to hide it,but it will always remains inside us.That's what i think,but it's just an opinion of a guy that never faced the reality of war...so:take it as u'd like.
Thanks



Irish -> (4/10/2002 9:45:14 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Greg McCarty
[B]My observations:

Now as far as that crap about the evils of wargames. I've listened to that intellectually bankrupt blather from people since 1966. Ignore it. These kinds of people can't even cope with their own lives, let alone the realities of world history. One pattern I've noticed in people that were seriously engaged in this hobby over the years is that no one takes the study of war lightly or frivolously. There's nothing sick about the serious study of military history or the games that simulate it. Our efforts to learn and understand honor all those that lost their lives becoming that history. And we ignore that history at our peril. The euphoric fools that point and make criticizems spend precious time trashing everything and defending little. The words of such jackasses will be forgotten in a generation. In the broad scheme of history their momentary values will last just long enough to be annoying, but what we learn in settings like this will be discussed for centuries. [/B][/QUOTE]


WELL SAID!!!!!


Irish



Kanon Fodder -> (4/10/2002 10:29:34 PM)

I've been interested in WWII since I was 9 or 10 years old.
I think it originally game from watching movies (**** Busters, The Longest Day, The Desert Fox, Sink the Bismarck etc. etc.) and the multi-part documentary "The Valiant Years" with my parents.

My Dad served with the British army in Burma, but didn't talk about it a lot. When I was older he showed me some pictures he had saved, including a postcard taken from a dead Japanese soldier. He wasn't sure why he had kept that.

For some reason, despite my British background and having lived almost all of my life in Canada, I am more interested in the German side of the conflict. I almost always prefer playing as German in wargames, and find their equipment much more interesting than the British or American.

This fascination with "the losing side" carries over to my American Civil War preference for the Confederates.

Why a Canadian ex-Brit is so interested in the U.S. Civil War I cannot explain.

My ex-wife figured I was a reincarnated Wermacht soldier (who must have also died in the Civil War)

I play games like SPWaW for the historical accuracy, to try to get a better understanding of the tactical, rather than strategic, side of warfare. Most of my book collection is military history.

There was an interesting piece in [I]The Oregonian[/I] a week or so ago where they had 27 questions they asked some local college students to do with history. The average score was 15.
One 23-year-old explained her score saying she "hadn't studied history since high school".

I never went to college.
I graduated from high school almost 31 years ago.

I got 24 out of 27 ...



martinmb -> "the losing side" (4/11/2002 4:54:59 AM)

Kannon fodder
They may have been on the other side of victory, however the Confederates did it with style and grace. The Germans had more interesting toys(?). Your comment or question as to why you enjoy playing those sides is proof that you wanted to see if you could have done better than the real generals. At least on one hand,and to have fun on the other. The results from the "questionnaire" you posted, as well as your own score, just goes to prove what that uncle of mine said all those many years ago is true. Well done.



Charles2222 -> (4/11/2002 5:40:50 AM)

quote:

One 23-year-old explained her score saying she "hadn't studied history since high school".


Delete the s,c, and e, off of that, and you get the real message, "hadn't studied history 'in' high school. Of course taking the word 'history' out of that sentence would probably be even more accurate (hadn't studied in high school).



Fallschirmjager -> (4/11/2002 6:24:45 AM)

Just coming from high school myself I can yes yet it is mostly students. Yet it is also the insane demands and crap materials they give us and teachers.

The time we have to run through the course of history is very lacking. We cover very little detail and have skim every topic.
The textbooks are also quite terrible. They give biased, sugarcoated and insanly PC views on history that Id rather not read about. I havnt bought any college history text book simply for the fact that they would be a waste of money. I refuse to read history when it comes from the media or textbooks.



sven -> (4/11/2002 11:30:26 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]One thing that I havent seen said yet

The people I knew in the service were guys that thought about the unit the "other" guy was important.

But with civilians its all about "me". Its not about "us" or the company, its just what's in it for me.

"My" wages, "My" seniority, "My" hours.

I have long lost touch with the people I knew in the service, but friends in uniform are a world apart from "just friends".

"Just friends" will buy you a beer, but will they really do anything for you when it gets ugly.

I pity civilians, I really do. Most haven't got a clue what its like to have "real" buddies. [/B][/QUOTE]

You don't have to like your buddies you just have to be willing to risk all to help them and they are buddies because you know they'll do the same when the chips are down. Soldiering is not a job that is built on hate it is built on love. You love your nation, home, and buddies. You feed off the hate that there is when the chips are down but you join up and serve because of love.

That's what my uncles and grandpa taught me and it is how I tried to serve. I never saw the elephant and I am glad. I hope one day people spend as much time worrying about helping their neighbor as they do in finding ways to kill him.

regards,
sven



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (4/12/2002 12:19:32 AM)

Hey sven long time no see



Supervisor -> (4/12/2002 11:03:57 AM)

Sarge this thread has been nominated for The Hall Of Fame would you like me to move it with a link still here, you started this it's your choice.:D :D



WhiteRook -> (4/12/2002 11:22:01 AM)

This is a subject that comes up all the time I have found and I think it is good that people in this hobbie do talk about it.
I also have not had to witness a best friend dying as his lifes fluids seeped out of him or watch my home town be torn down by shell fire or bombs. No "sane" man would.
I enjoy this hobby for many reasons. First my father and many uncles were in WWII, I had cousins in Korea and Vietnam. I was lucky in the fact that all of them came home! Sadly they are all gone now except the one that had been in Nam. I play alot of these games to honor them in a way. I play these games as I have a never dying urge to see evil defeated.
I also play these games because I like to see things "blow-up" and I have always been infactuated with the toys of war!
But the thing I am always glad of is the simple fact that they are just Games! All I have "killed" is either cardboard counters, die cast metal ships or pixels on a crt screen.
My prayer is that this is all it will ever be........ :)



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (4/12/2002 7:12:21 PM)

Your kidding? right? man I would be honoured.

Hall of fame whooohooo. Makes all the efforts of trying to be useful worth the effort.:)

Yeah that would impress me please do.



Supervisor -> Ok (4/12/2002 9:47:16 PM)

Ok at your request it's done!:D



ruxius -> (4/12/2002 11:23:12 PM)

Yes , I too had long reflected after playing SP for a while...
which reasons go behind my passion...?
Am I on the right when I 'play' where other couldn't live in peace ?

This happened to me the first time I realized what really was the war...hell , death and desperation , great hope , life and ideals ,experience , void , rage , fear , spirit of honour and friendship as maybe never before , doom and piety , pain and defet...
That's why I never played for score...

So I found my reasons when i say :
Conoscere la guerra per amare la pace !
(Know the War to love the Peace..)

it's a sort of background that never expires...we have choosen in some way to be the Guardians of this perpetuum remembering..

Thank you Les...
I had to say it !



Belisarius -> (4/30/2002 1:07:40 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charles_22
[B]

Delete the s,c, and e, off of that, and you get the real message, "hadn't studied history 'in' high school. Of course taking the word 'history' out of that sentence would probably be even more accurate (hadn't studied in high school). [/B][/QUOTE]

Offtopic, but have any of you seen the 'Jaywalking' parts of "the Tonight show" with Jay Leno? OK, granted, the probably take the worst cases, but it kinda scares me that people can be so blissfully ignorant, naive and yet be eligible to vote.

Example: He once asked (Americans in downtown LA, I think)what countries won WWII?, and they couldn't even get that right :eek: Those who do not know their history are bound to repeat it! Just imagine what kind of president they would elect... oh wait. Nevermind :D



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (4/30/2002 4:03:16 AM)

Sorry my American friends, just reporting what is in print here

Carl Sagan's book The Demon Haunted World

(don't read this if you get angry easy though, some of what he says won't make you very happy)

Full 50% of American adults as of 1996 (that's not 1896) are currently unaware we are travelling around the sun (as opposed to it travelling around us).

AHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! but the Americans have nuclear weapons.

Alas I am willing to assume that a man as smart as Carl Sagan was, would not be guilty of quoting an eroneous detail additionally.

Now you know why, while I support the American desire to stomp the hell out of terrorist friendly countries, I am not overly fond of Bush's desire to build his Missile shield. Stupidity is open to all regardless of socio economic position.

But to be fair and not seen as anti American, while our students are a lot smarter than their US counter parts, twice as good as a US student still leaves Canada infested with a lot of dangerously uneducated youths. Most of my young friends can't even tell me much about the Gulf let alone something dim and distant as WW2.

Our youths rarely even want to go to the rememberance day services let alone understand why its a day we should not be forgetting.



Bernie -> (4/30/2002 4:47:06 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]Sorry my American friends, just reporting what is in print here

Carl Sagan's book The Demon Haunted World


Full 50% of American adults as of 1996 (that's not 1896) are currently unaware we are travelling around the sun (as opposed to it travelling around us).

[/B][/QUOTE]

And fully 85% of American teens believe it revolves around them. :)

Gotta be careful pushing radical theories like that sun business Les... Look what it got Coperenicus...



rawink -> (5/8/2002 9:02:49 AM)

Wow.. I just spent an hour reading all of this. I am stunned at the depth, and compassion shown towards MEN who DIED in comabt for whatever their home nation deemed as a Just Cause. There was no "Jap" or "Hun" bashing, no Viet Cong cracks.. just emotion towards the men on all sides of conflicts who simply went, fought, and died, many never knowing the full reason or Big Picture thinking that sent them to their deaths.

I have accomplished many things so far in my life, but I find I do not feel like sharing them with people. I share my triumphs and failures with my family and closest friends, but to an outsider, you wouldn not know if I was a prince or a pauper.

The ONLY thing I show outward pride in is my military service. I server in the US Army during President Ronald Reagan's second term. I did the training and came out as an Airborne RANGER assigned to the 3rd batt. 75th Infantry Regiment, as an 11Bravo (Light Infantryman). It was all I ever wanted to do. Never thought of a different unit, different branch, or even a different MOS. My Grandfather was 75th Infantry at Normandy, and my Father was 82nd in Viet Nam as part of a A-Detachment. It was destiny of sorts.

I fully understand the difference between being a civilian and being in one of the most elite infantry groups on Earth. In the US Army, NOBODY messed with you if you wore the Black Beret. As a civilian, I would actually be teased, and called vulgar terms meaning I was queer simply because i wore a beret. The physical and mental cost that was paid in blood and sweat to earn the RIGHT to wear that never occured to this mental midgets. A complete ignorance of the symbolism, or commitment to excellence required to do the job the beret denoted. I actually sent my uniforms out after I was discharged, got them cleaned, and put them away for good over 10 years ago. I was actually EMBARASSED to have people see a picture of me in my beret! I never dreamed I could be made to feel SHAME for something like that! I was a child during Viet Nam, but just the site of that beret would cause people to blame be for every trumped up, bogus thing they could think of!

I took part in the Panama Invasion, and the Grenada ops in the 80's, as well as some fo the stuff that happened in Central America with the Contras and all that mess. I have seen combat up close and personal. When it comes to wargamming, I chose Aircraft sims, and games such as Steel panthers because they do not realostically depict the blood and gore of death. SPWAW is a sterile game in that aspect. An inanimate Sherman tanks gets smoked by German 88 gun, poof! thats it, counters on a computer. I dont like FPS style games due to the programmers need to add as much blood and gore into the game as possible, I dont understand the mindset that begs for more gore, and them more, and themmore. it borders on mental illness in my opinion. I am no longer in the Military due to a wound i was given in an unnamed country in Central America. I took a 7.62x39mm round in the back and it cost my half a lung, and a fragment still lodged in my spine, so my jumping days are over. I took an out, and went to college on Uncle Sam. I dont regret leaving, sicne I would have never been happy again as anything other than being a RANGER.

I enjoy the tactics required for proper Tank command. As Light Infantry I saw more armor in movies than in the military, and Tanks, aircraft and warships have always fascinated me. This is my way of enjoying and admiring those who DID win at Midway and Antwerp , and ackmoledging what it took to make it happen. The brains, the talent, and sheer know how required to be an Armor General, or a CV Task Force Admiral.

btw.. I took my Uniforms out on 9/11/01.. put them on and drove to MacDill AFB. I stood at the gate for 4 hours with 20 other men in dress uniform from all services. All retired.. from ancient to young. We just stood there, never said much.. just stood there and saluted the men and women scrambling into the base that horrible morning. I will NEVER put my beret away again, for ANY **** BODY! It means far more today than it ever did before.

Sorry for the story, I went alittle overboard:)



WhiteRook -> (5/8/2002 9:38:06 AM)

rawink, don't be sorry - it is a great peice and from the heart!
Personaly I am proud of you and salute you and all others that have served and do serve this country! :)
And don't ever - ever be ashamed of your bret ever again! Any lame assed American that would treat one of our vets that way needs an enema with a flame thrower!! And I would be glad to administer it! :D

Rook



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