I leoni d'Etiopia ???? (Full Version)

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Il carabiniere -> I leoni d'Etiopia ???? (10/5/2000 11:54:00 PM)

Salve a tutti, prima di inviare in inglese una garbata risposta a Will Bill vorrei sapere dagli italiani che bazzicano questo posto cosa ne pensano dello scenario " I leoni d'Etiopia". Personalmente l'ho trovato a dir poco fantascientifico, soprattutto nel testo d'introduzione con quell'etiope che picchia sullo scafo del nostro L3 urla "uscite fuori" e il nostro equipaggio esce fuori e si fa affettare. Assurdo come assurdo e il massacro finale a colpi di sciabolate e teste mozze, neanche che Conan il barbaro si fosse arruolato nelle file etiopi. Non credo che Bill Will abbia un particolare motivo per avercela con gli italiani eppure č gią il suo secondo scenario (il primo fu "The lions of Leros" su Spww2)in cui la storia viene distorta o addirittura capovolta. Ho cercato nei miei libri una qualche menzione dei fatti narrati nello scenario, ma non ho trovato assolutamente nulla, se qualcuno dispone di informazioni migliori si faccia avanti. In attesa di un vostro segno di vita preparo una risposta per Will Bill (la traduzione andrą per le lunghe....) Ciao



Moonwolf -> (10/6/2000 12:11:00 AM)

Ciao, Scusare prego il mio italiano. Li penso necessitą di parlare fino alla prova per correggere l' accettazione generale della vista pregiudicata delle campagne italiane che abbiamo nei paesi anglofoni. Ci č una riluttanza da parte delle guide di gioco per ritrarre gli italiani poichč realmente erano, prefering preferibilmente per seguire la propaganda britannica. Forse se lo presentate con i clienti ed i riferimenti reali infine ammetteranno la loro propria vista corta. Ho provato, ma ascoltano me soltanto un piccolo. ------------------ Ed Mortimer Meglio un Giorno da Leone



Wild Bill -> (10/6/2000 12:51:00 AM)

I don't speak or read Italian, Carabiniere, but I assume you are unhappy, very unhappy with the scenario, Lions of Ethiopia. The scenario is based on a chapter in the book, Iron Cavalry, by Ralph Zumbro. You'll find it on pages 241-253. I tried to recreate what he describes in his book, as exactly as I could. In the book he names his sources. Now I have no prejudice against Italians or anyone else. If you have better information than this, then please let me know where to find it. If the scenario seemed too easy for the Ethiopians and you felt like it was a slaughter, according to Mr. Zumbro, that is what it was. I have since revised the scenario and made the Italians tougher, harder to fight. I am able to grasp enough of your message to see that you speak very harshly about this. Evidently you are angry. I'm sorry if that is the case. It was not intended to be offensive to you or anyone else. Now if you want to reply in English to me (you must have read it or you would not have known what the scenario is about) or have someone translate for you so I can see exactly what your point is, I'll be happy to answer. The information on Lions of Leros came from two books: The Mediterranean and Middle East, Moloney Surprise Attack, Darman. Here again, I based the scenario on what these books had to say about the battle. If you have information that is different, why not share it with me. I am always open to suggestions. I just used some of Fredde's suggestions to improve the Lions of Ethiopia. I am not open to attack. Of course, I can't really catch your point either Ed, in your reply. But I assume if you want that kept private and between you and Carabiniere, that is okay too. If you need to have all this translated for you, I'll be happy to get someone to do it. We have some folks who are Italian on our team and they will be happy to do that. Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games [This message has been edited by Wild Bill (edited October 05, 2000).]



Il carabiniere -> (10/6/2000 2:23:00 AM)

Hello Will Bill, First of all, I am not angry with you or with anybody else at Matrix. On the contrary this is the occasion to thank you and all Matrix staff for your great artwork. I must admit that when I play Spwaw I feel a little guilty because I've never thanked Matrix before. Now I think that you can estimate how much poor is my English. So I hope that you can give me some time to translate the reply about the two scenarios. I wrote in italian because I was asking to italian people if anybody had better information before I write directly to you in English. And BTW I hope you will forgive me for the tone in my topic, but we Florentine people are very infamous in Italy because we are very polemical and quarrelsome. Have you ever heard anything about Medieval Guelphes and Ghibellines, they were a Florentine speciality. I hope my future contribution will be more constructive. Again sorry for my poor English Very best regard Massimo



Fabs -> (10/6/2000 2:40:00 AM)

Hi Wild Bill, I speak Italian and can translate the gist of Carabiniere's post. He is unhappy and asks other Italian players that may be reading this if they have information on this particular fight that may show the Italian performance in a different light. He does not take issue with you personally (he says that he does not believe that you have any particular reason to be biased against Italians) but notes that this is the secons scenario that you have produced where Italians are portrayed, in his view, in an unfavourable light. I think he questions the sources and would like to find information that balances their version. This is an old controversy from the time when there was a mini Italian forum, and it was carried through on other English postings a few months ago. I am an Italian speaker but I was born in Switzerland from a Swiss father and a Spanish mother. I have lived in Great Britain for the past twenty years and I am possibly in the best position to comment on this question. Italians have a bad rap in the Second World War because their forces failed to perform creditably at the strategic level in most theaters where they were involved. I do not dispute that there were elements of the Italian armed forces that could give a good account of themselves and commentators from both the German and Anglosaxon camps have supported this. However, by and large, and possibly for understandable reasons, they fought less well, than the better performers in the War. One could take issue with the fact that other nations whose performance was equally questionable do not suffer from the same amount of opbrobrium by Anglo-saxon commentators, but the argument might get a little heated if names were mentioned, so we won't go there. Such is the impact of the propaganda needs of the times, and history is normally written by the victors. Italian players have complained with some justification in my opinion that the scale of the game being tactical rather than strategic Italian forces should be represented with a broader range of fighting quality. That is for the designers of the game to consider. Many non Italian players may feel that that would not be historical. In the early years of SP1 I found that British forces had a bad rap in the game. My solution was to make heavy use of the editor and re-design the scenarios as I saw them. ------------------ Fabs



Wild Bill -> (10/6/2000 4:35:00 AM)

Thank you gentlemen. Again, I assure you I would never do anything intentionally to besmirch a nationality or any other group. The war happened. We play wargames in memory of that. I try to be realistic. You all cry for realism. "Tell it like it was," you say. That is precisely what I try to do. Now I was not in Ethiopia in 1935. I was not even born in 1935 [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] It wasn't long after, however, 1937. I cannot attest to this battle except through the histories that I read. And if someone finds and can corroborate something different, I'll be the first to change it. I love the Italian people. Your women are among the most beautiful in the world. Your effusive love of life is contagious. I admire your tenacity and your sense of humor. My mother was an orphan, but she had every physical Italian characteristic you can mention, beautiful, spirited, jealous [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/tongue.gif[/img], olive skinned, loving and a great mother [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]. So maybe there is a drop or two of Italian blood coursing through my veins. Once someone submitted to me a Malmedy scenario, trying to rescue the captured GIs before they were massacred. I refused it. It did not seem appropriate. It still doesn't. Not all events in war should be reproduced. Every nation has a dark side, a skeleton or two (some with meat still hanging off the bones! [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/eek.gif[/img] )and no one came out of the war "lily-white." Thank you, Carbiniere, for the explanation. Thanks to Fabs for the translation. Carabiniere, I do try to put the Italian soldiers in a better light to make folks know that there were brave noble Italians, just like there were brave noble Germans, Russians,etc. I'm working on a scenario right now dealing with Italy's capitulation and the beginning of her fighting against Germany. It is called, "What to do?" In the Beda Fomm scenario, "Just in Time," the Italians can win that one with careful play. I don't and never have subscribed to giving a blanket estimate to a people (or an army). Life does not work that way. The Italians fought heroically in Russia on occasion, in North Africa, and even in Sicily (the confrontation at Gela). SO don't ever think that I am of that frame of mind. I am married to a black woman (she does not like to be called African-American. She says she is Chicago-American). Prejudice just has no place in my life. Wild BIll ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



Fabs -> (10/6/2000 5:52:00 AM)

I am sure no one means to infer anything about you, Wild Bill, other than you are a great scenario designer and we love your work. Look forward to that "What to do" scenario. ------------------ Fabs



Lazarus -> (10/6/2000 12:55:00 PM)

Salve! Hai chiesto segni di vita dagli italiani? eccomi qua [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/cool.gif[/img] . Purtroppo non ti saro' di eccessivo aiuto: Non ho ancora avuto occasione di provare lo scenario in questione ma lo faro' al piu' presto. Parlando in generale: ho piu' volte provato gli scenari che hanno come protagonista l'esercito italiano e devo ammettere che spesso se non e' una causa persa poco ci manca data l'intriseca difficolta' dello scenario stesso. Partendo dal presupposto che si tratti di solo un'impressione personale (probabilmente causata da una certa incapacita' ed inesperienza personale [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] ) sono aperto ad ogni discussione. Riguardo a WB: ESCLUDO a priori una qualsiasi volonta' da parte sua di alterare la storia (tolto il minimo imposto dai limiti del gioco) o di avere qualcosa contro la nostra nazione (razzismo, pregiudizi, ecc). Pur avendo avuto solo un breve scambio di email, non mi sembra il tipo! Mi scuso per la scarsa correttezza dell'italiano ma sono in ufficio e si presume che spenda il mio tempo in ben piu' remunerative attivita' [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/tongue.gif[/img]. Ciao! PS gia' che ci sei scusa l'eventuale tono troppo amichevole della risposta. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] [This message has been edited by Lazarus (edited October 06, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Lazarus (edited October 06, 2000).]



Fredde -> (10/6/2000 5:03:00 PM)

I'd just like to add that it is actually much easier to win with the Italian side in this scenario. I tried both, and won by a far greater margin with the Italians. I would presume this as the case even with a human Ethiopian opponent (still untried). Conclusion, if this scenario is (notice playwise!) biased at any side, it's towards the Italians.. which it probably should be also with armoured vehicles against cavalry.



Christophe Jaureguiberry -> (10/6/2000 9:44:00 PM)

I am a newbie and just finished downloading SPWAW v4.0 (52 hours!) three days ago, but I would like to make a small comment on the "Lions of Ethiopia" scenario. While reading the scenario's description in the depot (I downloaded it because this part of History has always interested me), Wild Bill explained his choice of using the UK flag for the Ethiopian side by stating that both countries were allies. That is not exactly true: Britain was Ethiopia's ally during WWII and pushed the Italians out during the conflict, but neither Britain nor France moved a finger when Italy invaded Ethiopia in 1935. In fact, despite an impassioned appeal by Haile Selassie during his speech at the League of Nations (to try to garner international support against Italy's military action), everyone commiserated but nobody pledged support. Actually, there was an implicit agreement between France, Britain and Italy as to the repartition of the spoils in the horn of Africa. These two countries were aware that Italy was going to invade Ethiopia but did not react, thereby giving Italy a virtual "carte blanche". Coming back to the scenario, using the British flag for Ethiopia's side might be seen as slight of hand to cover up for Britain's (and the rest of the western world) shameful silence in 1935, and associate more closely the Ethiopian side to the United Kingdom. The readership of this board being largely Anglo-Saxon, by affectionate transfer players would be better predisposed towards the Ethiopians (the "good" guys defending their country and Anglo-Saxon allies), and tend to be colder towards the Italians (the agressors and non-Anglo). Having stated this, I can understand why Italians would feel that the scenario is biased (even if it is or not, that is not the point of my post). Myself, as a non-Anglo Saxon felt a bias as I read the scenario description. I would like to clarify one last point. I am not implying that Wild Bill is biased against the Italians or anyone else for that matter. I just think that because of what I have explained above, some people might feel the scenario is biased. It might be better to use a generic flag (if available) for the Ethiopians and not mention the fact that the British were Ethiopia's allies. They were, but not in 1935. Regards, Christophe



Wild Bill -> (10/6/2000 10:00:00 PM)

All of your points are very good Cristophe. I wanted to use a generic flag, but we don't have one. I feel that these battles should be included since they do form part of that period. Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



Moonwolf -> (10/6/2000 11:55:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Wild Bill: I am not open to attack. Of course, I can't really catch your point either Ed, in your reply. But I assume if you want that kept private and between you and Carabiniere, that is okay too. Wild Bill
Bill, No attack intended, simply stating my view and recommending he send you some information that shows the opposite view from the common British propaganda. Also saying that I have tried to speak to this issue but have only be listened to a little. ------------------ Ed Mortimer Meglio un Giorno da Leone



Wild Bill -> (10/7/2000 1:33:00 AM)

Sorry, poorly worded on my part, Ed. My apologies. Certainly I did not think you were attacking me, but I could not understand your arguments. Kinda like my defense lawyer in Italy defending me. "What'd he say? [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/confused.gif[/img]? I just hate standing around listening to a conversation that I can't understand. I probably shouldn't be so nosey [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



Moonwolf -> (10/7/2000 2:20:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Wild Bill: I just hate standing around listening to a conversation that I can't understand. Wild Bill
Bill, Don't worry -- nobody can understand my Italian anyway [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] But I keep trying.



Billy Yank -> (10/7/2000 4:53:00 AM)

The Ethiopians had to win, they had Jah Rastafari on their side. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] (heh, heh, couldn't resist)
quote:

I am married to a black woman (she does not like to be called African-American. She says she is Chicago-American). Prejudice just has no place in my life.
So you're in that "club" too, WB? My wife's Jamiacan (and a former Rastafarian). ------------------ Billy Yank I don't define "my own" the way you want me to.



Wild Bill -> (10/10/2000 1:18:00 PM)

Yep, we are the new generation (G)..well, I'm kinda old for the new generation, but I'm still having fun.... Johnny Reb Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



Wild Bill -> (10/10/2000 1:22:00 PM)

All right Il Carbinierie, A new scenario with the Italians is coming out in the next day or so that is very challenging, but does show the heroism of the Italian people. You will find it on Fabio Prados web site anytime now. And only there! It is not being posted in the Depot. You must go to Fabio's site to get it. It's called "What to do." The Italians can win this one...with a decisive victory, though you might not think so the first time you play it. Help Captain Riggabuto in his Post-Armistice confrontation with the Liebstandarte to break through German lines and cross Ponte Umberto at Parma. Enjoy my friend. I think you will like this one a little better! ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



Lazarus -> (10/10/2000 5:44:00 PM)

it's not there... yet I Think... [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/frown.gif[/img] ------------------ "The conqueror is always a lover of peace; he would prefer to take over our country unopposed." CLAUSEWITZ



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