Hard Sarge -> RE: General Ratings for Montgomery (8/30/2008 10:40:33 PM)
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ORIGINAL: Harrybanana quote:
ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge why, he was a overblown *** who thought the Sun went down when he closed his eyes, his greatness came from with in his own mind I don't deny this and I don't think even Monty's staunchest supporters do. The guy definitely had a huge ego. But then again so did Patton, MacArthur, Napoleon, Wellington, etc. But whether he had a huge ego or not is immaterial as to whether or not he was a good general. Indeed most good generals throughout history have had huge egos. Of course even compared to the worst of them Monty takes the cake. Yes, but it would be nice, if he had a reason to have such a super Ego quote:
where most Commanders know that it is the blood of there men that give them there fame, he thought his fame was all due to his greatness, and though out history, he is the only one who could read a map I think you are being unfair here. Monty fought in WWI and from all accounts did generally care about the men under his command and their welfare. He knew that morale was important and it was for this reason that he spent so much time vistiting with the regular soldiers. Again because of his experiences in WWI he was careful (some would say too careful) not to squander the lives of his soldiers. If an attack was not going well (such as the first assault in the 2nd battle of El Alamein. or the original assault on the Mareth Line) he would halt it and find another way to breach the enemy lines. His men knew of his ego (who didn't) but for the most part they loved him anyway. I got to disagree here, we know that the English didn't have many men to waste, but most of his battles were very wasteful, where someone like Rommel who would of moved faster and hit HARDer, would of taken less losses, trying to save men, he lost them quote:
I really like the one where the troops in the desert, when somebody did something good,, something slick, they would say, he pulled a Rommel, Monty issued a order, that Troops had to say, he pulled a Monty I had never heard of this one, but it certainly sounds like something Monty would do. I had heard the one about Auchinleck telling his officers that they had to inform their men that Rommel was just a man and not that great a general. quote:
and the plans for MG was not to get across the Rhine River or end the war, it was to put a stop to Patton, so he would have to stand in place, while Monty got the glory, and with all of the recon and intell that was coming in, telling him he was wrong, was shoved aside, as it would mean if he stopped, Patton would get his supplies So now it comes out, the real reason the Americans don't like Monty, because he took Patton's oil. After the Breakout the Allied Command had a choice. They could either advance on a broad front sharing supplies evenly between all the Armies, or they could put all their effort into one big push with just a part of their force in an effort to knock Germany out of the War quickly. Both Monty and Patton favored the Big Push (but of course they each had different ideas about where the push should be made); but for political and other reasons Ike chose the broad front approach. This Broad Front strategy lasted until September when it became clear that there was just not enough supplies for even this to continue. At this point both Patton and Montgomery requested of Ike that they be given what supplies there were for one big push. Ike chose to accept Monty's plan over Patton's for a number of reasons. The most important being that Monty was closer to the Rhine. Did Monty want Patton's oil? Absolutely. Just as Patton wanted Monty's oil. But did he want it just becasue he was afraid Patton was going to show him up or steal his glory? Well you can believe that if you want (just as you can believe that Monty never intended for the breakout to occur in the American sector despite the paper evidence to the contrary); but I believe it more likely that MG was a legitimate attempt to get across the Rhine and end the War in 44. his paper record is interesting, since from the beginning, he planned on taking Caen on the first day, but his paper record keeps Caen as part of the focus point for his holding all of the Germen armor on his side of the front, over and over again, he couldn't take Caen, and wasted men and AFV's trying, and then when the push broke though on the other sector, it was all his idea It is true that information came to the Allies that there were German panzer formations regrouping around Arnhem; unfortunately the information came too late to change the plans. Monty didn't "ignore" the intelligence, he just had to make the decison of either going ahead as planned or scrapping the whole operation. He chose to go ahead and as you point out many brave Red Devils (along with many others) lost their lives as a result. Did he make the wrong decision? Well that is a tougher one to call. In hockey coaches often pull their goalie in the last minute if they are down by a goal to try and tie it up, more often than not it backfires and the other team scores another goal to put the game away. Does that mean the decision to pull the goalie was the wrong one? Well if it is the best chance you've got I would say no. For the same reason I would say Monty made the right decision to proceed with MG. But I can certainly appreciate that others have a different opinion. Don't forget Ike was faced with a similar decision when he decided to go ahead with Overlord (after a 1 day delay) notwithstanding that the weather reports were not altogether favorable. Had the weather turned and the Landings failed Ike would have lost his job and history would have been a lot different, but would that have made his decision wrong? yes, but the biggest, most dangerous thing a Airborne unit can run into is Armor, and it wasn't just a Armor Bdr or a Armor Div they found out was there, but a Armored Corps, and even worse, a SS Armored Corps but I still got to like the Dutch, who couldn't believe what was going on, any of the Dutch who went though Officer training, were shocked, as the plan, was pretty much the same as on there final test, and if you agreed with it, you failed the course, and that was designed, before the advances in Armor weapons, but before the war, the Dutch knew you couldn't do what Monty wanted to try I can agree with the idea of it was a choice, but in your setup, I think it more like the Hockey Coach, pulling his goalie in the 2nd Period quote:
the yanks have a General who is close to Monty, Mark Clark, another General who thought he would be the greatest of them all, until he started to count how many men he had to lose for his greatness I would personally rate Monty as being a much better general than Mark Clark, but again everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Monty was not nearly as wasteful of his men or resources as Clark and he was a much better planner. For the record, I do not think Monty was a "Great" General, but I do believe he was a Very Good one. I actually like the ratings given for the Generals in CEAW, including rating Patton, Rommel, Manstein and Guderian above Montgomery. I am not so sure about Eisenhower, but he was certainly the right man for the job. quote:
Monty shouldn't get a bonus to defence, don't think he should get one for Off either, but he should get bonuses for supply and replacementss I agree. I think this is generally what is reflected in his leadership rating.
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