New Assault rules / AI (Full Version)

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Bonzo Dog -> New Assault rules / AI (8/20/2008 11:41:02 PM)

Hi

dunno if anyone else has had same experience , but not having played for a while i recently came back to playing and installed JTCS with patch 1.03 but has anyone told the AI about new assault rules ?

playing against the AI it keeps trying to assault but will never do anthing because the odds are really stacked it against now, makes the AI more pathetic than it was before, will this be addressed in 1.04

BTW for those people who say it adds realism , does it ? how ? didnt we buy this GAME because it is a game enjoyable fun to play, if you want realism join up and fight Afganistan and Iraq await , you wont wanna do that for long IMO



Jason Petho -> RE: New Assault rules / AI (8/21/2008 12:58:16 AM)


1.04 will allow you to play with it off.

Jason Petho



Huib -> RE: New Assault rules / AI (8/21/2008 8:59:04 AM)

Overall the assault rules have actually improved AI, as it is more difficult for the human player to "herd and capture".



1925frank -> RE: New Assault rules / AI (8/21/2008 5:18:41 PM)

I'd be inclined to agree with Huib.  My impression was the new assault rules would improve games against the AI primarily because in scenarios the AI is almost always the defender, and the new assault rules benefit the defender.  Very few of AI scenarios are designed with the AI as the attacker because of the AI's limitations. 

For dynamic campaigns, where the AI might frequently be the attacker, I agree that the new assault rules might not make for interesting play.  As Jason pointed out, in the future, you could always opt for the original rules, or you could choose the side that does the most attacking.



Bonzo Dog -> RE: New Assault rules / AI (8/23/2008 5:50:44 PM)

So impressions ??

how do you find the AI with new assault rules ??

is the AI going to be improved to play the new assault rules ???



Huib -> RE: New Assault rules / AI (8/23/2008 7:08:48 PM)

The AI will perform better in it's defence, since the human player can't "herd, assault and capture" anymore. When the AI attacks, it is also less likely to get good assault results but it did not have the "intelligence" to herd and capture anyway, so the defensive advantage the AI has with the new rules outweighs the potential disadavantage when attacking. So in short the new rules fit better with what the AI is capable of.
At least this is my experience with the scenarios I've designed for play against AI.

Huib



Borst50 -> RE: New Assault rules / AI (8/23/2008 7:29:00 PM)

I was not a very big fan of heard and capture from the old rules....however, after haviong tried a few assualts...under the new rules, I am not sure those are any better. Any type of reinforced positions have now become impossible to assualt by any means. For an experiment, I tried assualting a concrete bunker....i positioned my infantry on nearly all sides, continual artillery bombardment, to try and disrupt any units, over several turns, used combined arms, and after 3 successive assualts, with a leader unit, I could not make a dent. The object of my assualt was defended by a 3 sp machinegun platoon, a 45 AT gun (2 sp), and a truck! Lol...I used 3 6 sp Pz Gren infantry, 1 (3 sp) Stug IIIG, and hit it with all my artillery over 3 turns. The artillery destroyed the truck, and disrupted the MG platoon....but the AT gun was left intact and undisrupted. All asssualts failed. The only thing I managed to accomplish was to disrupt my own infantry units and lose 1 sp to an infantry platoon for no effect.

Under the the Pre-1.03 rules, that assualt would have probably succeeded...but I realize it's all random. I usually do not many assualts regardless, but under the older rules, or the Talonsoft rules, I was more likely to acheive sucess.



Huib -> RE: New Assault rules / AI (8/23/2008 7:44:18 PM)

Concrete bunkers you have to take out with armor piercing units. What you have tried is exactly what did not work in reality. But given your overwhelming force you may have been succesful in 1.04.



Borst50 -> RE: New Assault rules / AI (8/23/2008 8:21:48 PM)

please to define "armor peircing units". Are you talking Engineer units? The kind of overwhelming force I used would have succeeded under pre- 1.03 rules....my assualt(s) failed under 1.04



1925frank -> RE: New Assault rules / AI (8/23/2008 8:25:47 PM)

The concrete bunker or pillbox is treated like a hard target.  The artillery probably had a very low attack value against a hard target.  Only tanks with flamethrowing abilities can assault pillboxes, so your StugIIIg may not have actually contributed to the assault.



Borst50 -> RE: New Assault rules / AI (8/23/2008 8:35:47 PM)

yes, I agree, however flamethrower units were not available to me at that engagement. oh and I should clarify...my experimental assualt was under the optional extreme assualt....sorry for any misunderstanding.



1925frank -> RE: New Assault rules / AI (8/23/2008 8:47:41 PM)

I think we are in agreement.  You're using the new assault rules, which are called the optional extreme assault rules, which make assaulting more difficult.

I think by "armor piercing units," Huib was referring to units with good attack values against hard targets.  German engineers have exceptional hard attack values and are especially useful early in the war when a lot of the tanks have hard attack values of 8 or less at one hex.

For pillboxes, disrupting, especially early in the war, can be difficult.  The Germans had the advantage of their engineers and, if you were lucky, an 88. 



Borst50 -> RE: New Assault rules / AI (8/23/2008 8:52:40 PM)

Yes...unfortunately....engenieers are not always available....so I was forced to use what was at hand. Normally I would bypass an obstacle such as that....but it was sitting on a 120 VP hex and i just had to have it. [:D]



1925frank -> RE: New Assault rules / AI (8/23/2008 9:51:19 PM)

Borst50, I think you are right that the AI will handle the new assault rules less well than the old assault rules.  However, on balance, since the AI will usually be on the defensive, and the human player will usually be on the attack, the new assault rules will probably help the AI overall.



Borst50 -> RE: New Assault rules / AI (8/23/2008 10:19:41 PM)

Perhaps...yet I remain circumspect about the whole issue....as I said, I do not do many assualts for the simplw reason they are not usually effective, and for the most part, I can usually bypass stubborn resistance and still come out with an outstanding victory. When I am forced to use an assualt as a means to capture an objective, I always try to go into it with overwhelming force, even if it meand delaying my attack for a couple of turns. So I take it all with a grain...My opinion is that Pre 1.03 is probably better for my style of play. And please do not misujnderstand, I have no prob with extreme assualt rules, I just prefer the older version......thank god they made them optional [:D]



Krec -> RE: New Assault rules / AI (8/24/2008 7:32:15 AM)

For assaults to have the best chance:

Disrupt all units
Kill as many men as you can before assaulting
Surround and/or assault from multiple hexes
Assault with only full supplied units, no low supplied if you can help it
Use as many high assaulting units as you can and use leaders for extra help

This is for non Bunker/Pillbox assaults

for Bunkers and pillboxes you must use engineers and/or flame
if you dont have then bypass ,  dont waste yor time

If you follow these rules you will win most of yor assaults






Huib -> RE: New Assault rules / AI (8/24/2008 12:01:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Borst50

please to define "armor peircing units". Are you talking Engineer units? The kind of overwhelming force I used would have succeeded under pre- 1.03 rules....my assualt(s) failed under 1.04


I mean a tank or TD. Units in concrete bunkers are easy to kill with a good hard attack value. Basically I would never even consider assaulting a concrete bunker, simply because shooting at them with the right weapons works so well.



dgk196 -> RE: New Assault rules / AI (8/25/2008 3:22:28 AM)

Well this is an interesting discussion, isn't it!? The 'bunkers' and 'pillboxes' used together and positioned properly form a 'fortification'?

Lets see I seem to remember an assessment by some general about them being monuments to the stupidity of man?

1. 'Bypass' them.

Or.....

2. 'Blind' them.

3. Systematically destroy them with close assaults.

Just how ineffective (in the game) is your 'standard' infantry platoon against one of these bunkers or pillboxes?

Seems everyone immediately looks for an engineer or a strong 'hard attack' unit before taking them on. Or being able to take them on?

I am not promoting or have any interest in this company! Get a hold of the DVD 'Infantry weapons and their effects, Official U.S. army training film' item #00052D (GunVideo.com). This is a very applicable video as it is about WWII weapons!

One viewing of this training film might change your mind as to the 'abilities' of the average infantry unit to take on any improved position, up to and including bunkers made of reinforced concrete! You might be surprised to see how effective 'small arms' are against some emplacements!

I'm not trying to say that anyone's position on this subject is 'wrong'. But, I just get a feeling that these types of 'targets' are being made overly difficult for all but 'specialized' units to take out under 'normal' circumstances! Anyway if you can get your hands on this DVD you might get a different idea about the 'defensive strength' of bunkers or pillboxes.

Dennis



XLVIIIPzKorp -> RE: New Assault rules / AI (8/25/2008 4:12:47 AM)

I have just finished playing "Cauldron of Fire" (Kursk) as the Axis under 1.03 assault rules. There are bunkers everywhere and I was able to successfully assault many of them. I don't know the mechanics of the new assault rules but my feeling from what I've read and now experienced is that the most decisive key to a successful assault is superior morale.

It seemed that isolating the intended targets for a turn or two (dropping morales?), while keeping the occupants under artillery and small arms fire (again having morale effects), really paved the way for success. And I'm not talking with massive numbers either, most of the time I admitedly went in stronger than pre 1.03 but in some circumstances I did go light because it was all I had and I was surprised. For example; a fatigued rifle platoon, and a MG platoon both low on ammo routing 2 disrupted rifle platoons out of a bunker, and even more surprising 2 SP's of Elefant's alone routing 2 disrupted SMG units out of a bunker. [X(]

In everyone of these circumstances the target units had been isolated, and under pretty intense fire for at least one previous turn, and the units I sent in did have fully intact morales.

Similarly, I also noticed that almost every assault I attempted on the same turn that the target was initally disrupted failed. So much for taking things on the run.

So yep, I'm convinced, I like the new rules and I'm gonna keep playing them. The good old times can still be had, just requires a bit more planning and prep, but that makes it all the more enjoyable.

Perhaps Jason or Huib could comment on my curiousity. Just how much of a factor is morale, or a few turns of isolation in a successful assault? [&:]



Jason Petho -> RE: New Assault rules / AI (8/25/2008 5:05:42 AM)

There is a pretty good document in the Manuals folder that explains the new assault rules.

Jason Petho



Legionaer -> RE: New Assault rules / AI (8/25/2008 11:21:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Krec

For assaults to have the best chance:

Disrupt all units
Kill as many men as you can before assaulting
Surround and/or assault from multiple hexes
Assault with only full supplied units, no low supplied if you can help it
Use as many high assaulting units as you can and use leaders for extra help

This is for non Bunker/Pillbox assaults

for Bunkers and pillboxes you must use engineers and/or flame
if you dont have then bypass , dont waste yor time

If you follow these rules you will win most of yor assaults

This is a very good explanation how it works at the best!

Stefan



XLVIIIPzKorp -> RE: New Assault rules / AI (8/26/2008 6:23:18 AM)

Jason, I looked in the manuals folder and found just a PDF entitled "assault_basics_v1_280115" containing only some basic diagrams about surrounding, guiding assaulted units, etc. I have not yet downloaded 1.04. Is the document you mention in the 1.04 update?

Thanks



Jason Petho -> RE: New Assault rules / AI (8/26/2008 1:55:05 PM)

Yes, it comes with the 1.04 UPDATE installation.

Jason Petho



Bonzo Dog -> RE: New Assault rules / AI (8/28/2008 4:00:53 PM)

ok this is now turning into another discussion about assault rules, this was not my intention my question was as this game is being modified/improved is the AI gonna get modiifed/improved too ?

the AI used to be ok in my opinion but these new assault rules have weakened , the balance of the whole game needs some kind of adjustment imo

is it just me ?



simovitch -> RE: New Assault rules / AI (8/28/2008 9:38:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bonzo Dog

ok this is now turning into another discussion about assault rules, this was not my intention my question was as this game is being modified/improved is the AI gonna get modiifed/improved too ?

the AI used to be ok in my opinion but these new assault rules have weakened , the balance of the whole game needs some kind of adjustment imo

is it just me ?

Bonzo Dog - I'm starting my 6th mission on a 1.04 EF DCG and the AI is not making bad choices on Assaults. 1.04 delivers a fair solution to Assaults IMO, and the AI seems to be reading the odds and assaulting accordingly. So give the beta 1.04 a try and see for yourself.[:)]



Bonzo Dog -> RE: New Assault rules / AI (8/30/2008 1:28:00 PM)

Hi

simovitch what are you talking about ?

i have tried the assault rules in 1.03 hence this post , 1.04 beta corrects some of the anomalies but that is not my point ( ihave downloaded it and installed it and played it still the same as 1.03)

my experience of the AI with the assault rules has been poor , AI making assaults when it has no possible outcome except killing/disrupting its own units, assaults which may have worked in talonsoft days just dont anymore, i have played both WF and EF campaigns, so the AI just makes winning even easier cos it assaults and reduces its own effectiveness

maybe i didnt explain myself clearly in the first place

but i now get the impression this post was a waste of time and people and using to argue about assault rules all over again

is the AI going to be improved ?? yes / no ???



simovitch -> RE: New Assault rules / AI (8/30/2008 2:31:32 PM)

Bonzo Dog - I got your point and it's a valid question. I was wondering the same thing while playing 1.03.

I just haven't experienced the same results that you have in 1.04 which IMO brings assaults back closer to the auto-kills of the talonsoft days. The AI doesn't seem to assault as much as it did in 1.02 so I reckon that the AI is adapting and didn't need (the probably tremendous effort required for) improving.



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