He219 only NJG? (Full Version)

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wargames -> He219 only NJG? (9/14/2008 10:37:34 PM)

This forum seems to be very quiet. Let me kick a start for some old BTR questions as the new one is still beyong reach.

Does anybody build anything else other than HE219 for German NJGs? HE219 is available at the beginning of the game. It seems better than any other twin engine NFs. So why anything else? You may want to keep on producing Fw190N and Me109G-6N though actually for daytime use, or at least not to disrupt daytime fighter production.



joey -> RE: He219 only NJG? (9/15/2008 2:22:59 AM)

Your right: this forum has gone a bit quiet. I guess the programers are busy hammering on those keys. Or at least I hope so. I hope the testing is going well. I would love to see something before Thanksgiving.



von Shagmeister -> RE: He219 only NJG? (9/15/2008 9:57:01 AM)

In the new version the He 219A-0 which is available at the start of the 17Aug43 campaign in limited numbers is no where near as effective as it used to be in the old version of BTR, it really used to be an Uber a/c. About the most effective Lw nightfighter now at game start is the Ju 88C-6.

In real life the reputation of the He 219A (and P-61A) has been blown out of all proportion to what it actually achieved, one of the most overated nightfighters of all time.



wernerpruckner -> RE: He219 only NJG? (9/15/2008 2:36:31 PM)

The He219 has short legs compared with other German NFs - I like the Ju88G much more [8D]



Howard Mitchell -> RE: He219 only NJG? (9/15/2008 5:14:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: von Shagmeister
In real life the reputation of the He 219A (and P-61A) has been blown out of all proportion to what it actually achieved, one of the most overated nightfighters of all time.


I'd second that. Captain Eric Brown flew a captured example and also described it as 'somewhat overrated'. Many authors seem seduced by its sexy appearance.



wernerpruckner -> RE: He219 only NJG? (9/15/2008 8:06:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wargames
Does anybody build anything else other than HE219 for German NJGs? HE219 is available at the beginning of the game. It seems better than any other twin engine NFs. So why anything else? You may want to keep on producing Fw190N and Me109G-6N though actually for daytime use, or at least not to disrupt daytime fighter production.


using NFs for daylight action can be dangerous - you may be able to slow down the American offensive, but BC is a very dangerous tool in the right hands.



wernerpruckner -> RE: He219 only NJG? (9/15/2008 8:18:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: von Shagmeister

In the new version the He 219A-0 which is available at the start of the 17Aug43 campaign in limited numbers ......


but there will be several other He219 variants......just use them wise [:'(]
some are more agile with less firepower some are flying bricks with additional weapons......and all were used in RL



wargames -> RE: He219 only NJG? (9/15/2008 9:23:32 PM)

Really? Maybe I haven't been playing the game long enough. It has been so easy to predict BC's attack direction. Even before I can upgrade my NJGs to He219s, BC bombers are already dropping like flies against my Me110s. I just cannot think of loosing the sky after darkness until Germany is completely blinded.

I cannot resist the temptation of using Me109G-6N at daytime. It has all the good things of G-6 and G-6/R2.



joey -> RE: He219 only NJG? (9/16/2008 1:14:31 AM)

I was always a fan of the JU-88. I found that simplicy for the Germans was always best, so I would find something that worked and kept doing it. I liked the the range of the JU88. I think that is very important for a night fighter.



Alfred -> RE: He219 only NJG? (9/16/2008 4:17:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wargames

I cannot resist the temptation of using Me109G-6N at daytime. It has all the good things of G-6 and G-6/R2.


I have always found the 60 minute delay before daylight takeoff and short legs of the Me109G-6N ( in comparison to the 2E night fighters) to severely restrict their effective use against the 8th AF.

Alfred



Hard Sarge -> RE: He219 only NJG? (9/16/2008 1:04:32 PM)

the trick there, is to be sure, or at least, think, that the raid is going deep, once you know it is a deep raid, that means it is going to take time to get back, so you can plot NF's to patrol areas behind where the raid has gone

still tricky, and Murder if you mis judge where other Allied fighters may come from, and still they are best at picking off stragglers, but it can be done



Dixie -> RE: He219 only NJG? (9/16/2008 2:05:05 PM)

I've not played much as the Axis commander, but when I was the NJG came in useful for daylight interception in the early days of the war.  When the AI sent the 8thAF beyond the range of the escorts there is plenty of time to form up along the expected route and pounce on the bombers when the fighters go home [:)]



von Shagmeister -> RE: He219 only NJG? (9/16/2008 2:55:20 PM)

 

Like Sarge and Dixie say the way to use them is beyond the range of escorts, but at the moment it wouldn't be a valid tactic because the range of Allied escort fighters is way too great, your nightfighters will just be fodder for marauding Allied fighters.

As of 17Aug43 Spitfire HF.IXs escorting B-17s can reach Bremen and P-47D-6s way beyond that! When you think that in real life on 17Aug43 P-47s could just reach over the German border it shows you that there is a serious issue here. The four months or so that the Axis player should have at the start of the 700 turn campaign to really hurt deep penetrations is gone. I hate to think what it will be like from start 44 onwards when the Allied juggernaut really gets going. I really hope this gets recified otherwise I wouldn't even think about using nightfighters at day.



Hard Sarge -> RE: He219 only NJG? (9/16/2008 6:13:25 PM)

the P-47 on escourt has 75 miles less range then the old game P-47 did

placing units on delay escourt, allows them to fly normal speed until they join, which gives them added range, I Can't do anything about that, that is the code (but each minute after take off it is delayed, is less time it can fly once it joins up, so long delays suck all the time on station away from them)

here is a Human raid vs Bremen vs the AI

and I am not so sure about your 4 months of bliss the LW enjoyed, the 47 was dropping the 200 gallon tank, and going with the 75 at this time, soon to be follow by the new wing which gave two 75 tanks, which would go to the 108 tank

(just in case, the 200 ferry tank, had pressure trouble so didn't work over 20,000 feet, and they didn't like to fill them up, and would drop them as soon as they got close to the coast, the 75 while smaller, worked, and they could climb to Alt and hang on to them, until forced to drop them)

and as you know, the range of the 47 got better after almost every misson, once they learned what they were doing

[image]local://upfiles/1438/EA0B43F4FD104F819BA85D73636217F9.jpg[/image]



von Shagmeister -> RE: He219 only NJG? (9/16/2008 8:45:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

the P-47 on escourt has 75 miles less range then the old game P-47 did

placing units on delay escourt, allows them to fly normal speed until they join, which gives them added range, I Can't do anything about that, that is the code (but each minute after take off it is delayed, is less time it can fly once it joins up, so long delays suck all the time on station away from them)

here is a Human raid vs Bremen vs the AI

and I am not so sure about your 4 months of bliss the LW enjoyed, the 47 was dropping the 200 gallon tank, and going with the 75 at this time, soon to be follow by the new wing which gave two 75 tanks, which would go to the 108 tank

(just in case, the 200 ferry tank, had pressure trouble so didn't work over 20,000 feet, and they didn't like to fill them up, and would drop them as soon as they got close to the coast, the 75 while smaller, worked, and they could climb to Alt and hang on to them, until forced to drop them)

and as you know, the range of the 47 got better after almost every misson, once they learned what they were doing



My "4 months of bliss" was referring to the fact that by the end of 1943/start of 44 Allied fighter strength, particularly USAAF fighter groups, really starts to build up and air superiority is lost.

With the range of fighter escorts as they are now 1st Schweinfurt (17Aug43) would never have been the disaster it was in real life, neither would 2nd Schweinfurt (14Oct43). Both these dates would be in the "4 months of bliss" time frame.

Here is a screen shot taken on 17Aug43. When in real life did Spitfires (other than PR versions) penetrate the German frontier, let alone this deep into Germany. IIRC it was Spr44. Note also the P-47s, at this time they should be able to get about as far as Lingen (circled Railyard). Nice example of Bf 110G-2/R3 getting intercepted by escort fighters when they should be the ones operating with impunity against the heavies.



[image]local://upfiles/18355/5B679A937E3A4F3BADC59C50E9801261.jpg[/image]



harley -> RE: He219 only NJG? (9/17/2008 1:33:21 AM)

You two, can we please restrict development arguments to the development forum?



von Shagmeister -> RE: He219 only NJG? (9/17/2008 9:44:09 AM)

I do apologise for mixing points up.

Going back to the original point, be very careful using nightfighters at day, if they get near escorts they will suffer.



wargames -> RE: He219 only NJG? (9/17/2008 7:27:07 PM)

Thanks for all your replies on or off the topic. I am glad to see that we still have a few BTR lovers actively exchanging our ideas here.

Back to the topic, in old BTR 1.06, Allied fighters hardly goes beyond Bremen/Essen in the beginning days. I found it very safe to deploy NFs behind this line. NFs have no job to do in the first week or so and in low moon light days. I've been more than happy to send these boys hunting 8th AF deep penetrations in broad daylight. In a good day, my NFs once shot down 100+ B-17s with a reasonable loss. Those Me-110s are to be disposed anyway when I get enough He219s. Single engine day fighters are always ordered to dispell Allies fighter escorts. So even if some P-47s manage to reach my NFs, they must have already exhausted themselves and running short on fuel. The most unfortunate event was I once called a NJG based in Holland to intercept B-17s over Hamburg. They did a good job over B-17s but sadly was "escorted" home by returning P-47s!!!




wernerpruckner -> RE: He219 only NJG? (9/17/2008 7:59:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wargames

Really? Maybe I haven't been playing the game long enough. It has been so easy to predict BC's attack direction. Even before I can upgrade my NJGs to He219s, BC bombers are already dropping like flies against my Me110s. I just cannot think of loosing the sky after darkness until Germany is completely blinded.

I cannot resist the temptation of using Me109G-6N at daytime. It has all the good things of G-6 and G-6/R2.


vs AI it was always easy....in a PBEM [:'(][:'(][:'(]
for me as Allied player in a PBEM BC was always the most dangerous weapon. you just had to create chaos on the enemy screen - I seldom use/used more than 2 or three NI squadrons for patrolling enemy A/Fs....most of them I used as streams....that gives more radio chatter and may confuse the enemy......also the Wellie and Mossie RCM were nice as baits.
later you get better ECM A/C.....and with them you can do lots of havoc in Germany.



wernerpruckner -> RE: He219 only NJG? (9/17/2008 8:02:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

the trick there, is to be sure, or at least, think, that the raid is going deep, once you know it is a deep raid, that means it is going to take time to get back, so you can plot NF's to patrol areas behind where the raid has gone

still tricky, and Murder if you mis judge where other Allied fighters may come from, and still they are best at picking off stragglers, but it can be done



stay inside the excort cover as long as possible....there are enough targets around close enough.......but there are always tempting targets far away....depemds on your strategy....but I always was more the BC guy in my PBEMs [8D]



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