Modding in German subs (Full Version)

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Zebedee -> Modding in German subs (9/25/2008 12:27:09 AM)

Hi guys,

I can use the editor, that's not the problem as such.

I just can't figure out how best to reproduce the performance of certain classes of subs, namely the German Type IXD2 ( http://www.uboat.net/types/ixd.htm ), the German Type IXC ( http://www.uboat.net/types/ixc.htm ), the Italian Liuzzi class ( http://www.regiamarina.net/subs/info/subs/subs_classes_specs_us.asp?Class=Liuzzi ) and the Italian Marconi/Marcello class ( http://regiamarina.net/subs/info/subs/subs_classes_specs_us.asp?Class=Marcello ).

Any and all suggestions welcome on how best to use the editor to simulate these submarines. (Japanese nationality a given, I know, more concerned with getting them in the game to play with than strict historical accuracy such as torpedo limits etc).



Terminus -> RE: Modding in German subs (9/25/2008 12:46:11 AM)

Here's my take on the Type IXD2 from my stock mod. While you can't do the torpedo shortage justice, I've given the German torpedoes a relatively high dud rate (to reflect their historical technical problems), and included a KM sub tender, along with a house rule that the Germans must base themselves at Penang/Georgetown, and always have their tender present in order to operate their subs. If they lose the tender, they lose their offensive capability.

[image]local://upfiles/16369/483F3BE88C484805A8055F2E57F67AF3.jpg[/image]

The problem is, of course, device slots. In stock, all naval guns, torpedoes and such, have to be in the database slots with a lower number than about 171 (I forget exactly which). In AE, that won't be a problem.



Dili -> RE: Modding in German subs (9/25/2008 1:28:33 AM)

Italian submarines should have in generaly worse maneuverality than comparable Germans since they were slower to submerge.

Luizzi 17kt 8kt 13000nm 134t 533mm/W270 Veloce Torpedo 4 front 4 2 0 533mm/W270 Veloce Torpedo 2 rear 2 1 0 100/47 Naval Mount 1 front 1 15 0 13.2mm 2 front 2 25 0 13.2mm 2 rear 2 25 0 Durability a bit over 100m;

Marconi 18kt 8kt 10500 72t(probable wrong should be more for that range )533mm/W270 Veloce Torpedo 4 front 4 2 0 533mm/W270 Veloce Torpedo 4 rear 4 1 0 100/47 Naval Mount 1 front 1 15 0 13.2mm 2 left 2 25 0 13.2mm 2 right 2 25 0 Durability 100m

Marcello 17kt 8kt 7500 108t 533mm/W270 Veloce Torpedo 4 front 4 2 0 533mm/W270 Veloce Torpedo 4 rear 4 2 0 100/47 Naval Mount 1 front 1 20 0 100/47 Naval Mount 1 rear 1 20 0 13.2mm 2 front 2 25 0 13.2mm 2 rear 2 25 0 Durability a bit over 100m





Zebedee -> RE: Modding in German subs (9/25/2008 2:00:40 AM)

Many thanks Terminus and Dili. 



Dili -> RE: Modding in German subs (9/25/2008 3:01:58 AM)

I should note that the i put in the game cruise speed parameter the maximum submerged speed and not the actual cruise speed. Range might need a small tweaking to account for that. The reason is that i have read that the game cruise speed is the speed employed by the game engine to determine in part the chances of a submarine to escape against an attack.



Zebedee -> RE: Modding in German subs (9/25/2008 4:36:47 AM)

That's well beyond my capabilities to figure out Dili, and I'm sure what you've posted is well within the ballpark for performance. Appreciated as I had no idea how to baseline my manoeuver ratings which was the thing which was really causing me 'issues' with modding in subs :)



mikemike -> RE: Modding in German subs (9/25/2008 10:46:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Here's my take on the Type IXD2 from my stock mod. While you can't do the torpedo shortage justice, I've given the German torpedoes a relatively high dud rate (to reflect their historical technical problems), and included a KM sub tender, along with a house rule that the Germans must base themselves at Penang/Georgetown, and always have their tender present in order to operate their subs. If they lose the tender, they lose their offensive capability.



I don't want to seem to be nitpicking while I'm nitpicking, but I can't resist commenting on this: at the time the IXD2 boats came to Penang, the torpedoes would have worked just fine - no increased dud rate any more - the Kriegsmarine was faster off the mark than the USN rectifying the problems. Possibly the pain was felt more acutely when during Weserübung half the fleet was lost while numerous opportunities to even the score were lost due to crock torps. Anyway, a sub at the time would have carried mainly G7e electric torps - slower and shorter-ranged that the G7a steam torps but running without tracks and far easier to manufacture. Otherwise, your IXD2 looks good although I'm a bit doubtful about the guns - subs usually lost the 10,5 cm when the AA armament was upgraded, although I don't know if that went for the Monsun subs, too.



Terminus -> RE: Modding in German subs (9/25/2008 11:05:18 PM)

Two things:

- I'm not talking about the design flaws (the Germans shot a few people early in the war, and hey presto, no more problems). The Monsun group had plenty of trouble with their torpedoes anyway, because of heat, humidity and insufficient maintenance. They were, to coin a phrase, "fish out of water".

- The Type IX U-Boats kept their deck guns, despite their flak gun upgrades. The Type VII's all landed theirs.



el cid again -> RE: Modding in German subs (9/25/2008 11:35:24 PM)

If you are producing German subs in WITP - and unless they start you are producing all Axis subs - you might want to modify the durability - so the cost is minimal. I use durability of 1 (the minimum that works for Axis production) - and then immediately upgrade to the right value - which is related to depth for a sub. The real advantage in game terms of a German sub is it is very hard to sink - due to great depth. I use effective depth - which for a German sub is about twice design depth. Anyway - using that value up front makes cost to produce excessive. This was suggested by Historiker.



Terminus -> RE: Modding in German subs (9/25/2008 11:59:27 PM)

I don't WANT the German subs to be easy to produce; the Japs aren't building them, after all, and they are at the end of a very long logistical line, so the cost is justifiable.



Zebedee -> RE: Modding in German subs (9/26/2008 1:05:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

If you are producing German subs in WITP - and unless they start you are producing all Axis subs - you might want to modify the durability - so the cost is minimal. I use durability of 1 (the minimum that works for Axis production) - and then immediately upgrade to the right value - which is related to depth for a sub. The real advantage in game terms of a German sub is it is very hard to sink - due to great depth. I use effective depth - which for a German sub is about twice design depth. Anyway - using that value up front makes cost to produce excessive. This was suggested by Historiker.


Thanks El Cid, that's how I've put them into the game as I can't just 'magic' them into Penang. I've no intention of making any more, just want those which were sent to be there. ;)

--

Terminus - are you allowed to comment on whether AE changes this requirement to build something from scratch if you want it to be in the game? Just a general interest question and I appreciate it if you're not at liberty or feel no desire to answer :)



Terminus -> RE: Modding in German subs (9/26/2008 1:07:46 AM)

You still have to build your ships, but you can most certainly "magic" them into Penang if you want. Just set them to appear there; if the Japanese don't control it when the subs are meant to appear, they'll default to the Jap standard location in the Home Islands.



Zebedee -> RE: Modding in German subs (9/26/2008 1:17:19 AM)

Thanks Terminus.



Terminus -> RE: Modding in German subs (9/26/2008 1:18:57 AM)

NP...



mikemike -> RE: Modding in German subs (9/26/2008 9:04:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

The Monsun group had plenty of trouble with their torpedoes anyway, because of heat, humidity and insufficient maintenance. They were, to coin a phrase, "fish out of water".



Ah. Hadn't thought of that. Conditions inside the boats were certainly hellish. The Type XXI's were air-conditioned - they would have been much better suited for the area.

I've dug into my library and found that, due to shortage of torpedoes, the Monsun boats in Penang received just half the usual loadout, about twelve (the maximum that could be carried inside the hull).

Late in the war, when subs carried the T5 homing torpedoes, they had standing orders to dump any they had left in deep water before they entered Japanese controlled waters. Apparently Hitler didn't want the Japanese to have access to that technology. So much to cooperation in the Axis.

quote:


The Type IX U-Boats kept their deck guns, despite their flak gun upgrades. The Type VII's all landed theirs.


Basically correct, but the Type VII boats operating in the Arctic and the Med generally kept their 88 mm guns, and boats operating in the Baltic put them back in. And the 105 mm guns seem to have been removed from the Monsun boats late in the war, at least the commander of U196 said so.

BTW, I don't see anything wrong with having the subs arrive with a Durability of 1. It's not as if the IJN had to expend resources to get them. You get a very limited number of them, so the non-existent building costs exert next to no influence on the building program. The arrival date is quite fixed, you can accelerate it by maximally five days. And as soon as they arrive in Penang, they have to move to Singapore to upgrade in the yard. With a durability of 75 they will take some time to repair to zero, which models RL pretty well (for any non-trivial repairs, the Monsun boats had to go into a Singapore yard, and turn-around took 70 - 90 days).



Terminus -> RE: Modding in German subs (9/26/2008 9:57:10 PM)

Yeah well, I'm not interested in giving Japan free submarines. And according to my sources, the Monsun boats kept their deck guns (as did the rest of the IX's).



Dili -> RE: Modding in German subs (9/26/2008 10:05:58 PM)

My Mediterranean notes say that VII C converting to 20mm AA gun maximum(around SET42) and dropping the 88.



Terminus -> RE: Modding in German subs (9/26/2008 10:52:05 PM)

Yes, the Type VII did. The Type IX did not, and the Monsun boats are specifically noted in my sources as having retained their 10.5cm deck guns.



Japan -> RE: Modding in German subs (9/27/2008 11:13:32 PM)

Nice.. get that thing into AE  hehe



el cid again -> RE: Modding in German subs (10/7/2008 9:15:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

You still have to build your ships, but you can most certainly "magic" them into Penang if you want. Just set them to appear there; if the Japanese don't control it when the subs are meant to appear, they'll default to the Jap standard location in the Home Islands.



Subs can appear where they made landfall. Most went to Panang - but look em up. Some went to other ports first.



el cid again -> RE: Modding in German subs (10/7/2008 9:17:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

My Mediterranean notes say that VII C converting to 20mm AA gun maximum(around SET42) and dropping the 88.



The Earste Monsoon boats were not always rearmed to ETO standards. Look em up case by case - or just look in the RHS database for a strictly historical scenario - you will find them already researched. The EOS family has some boats that didn't quite make it - but might have - with estimated dates of arrival in theater. But in CVO family they simply are the ones that made it.



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