RE: Missing pilots? (Full Version)

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Q-Ball -> RE: Missing pilots? (9/27/2008 1:30:33 PM)

My very rough count (+- margin of error of few hundred), came up with about 10,500 Japanese Planes like previous poster said, and around 18,500 in Allies, between the 13,500 in LBA and all the CVs are deployed. It wouldn't quite get to that point because some CV airgroups sink and are destroyed, but all that is still alot of pilots.

I am going to propose a house rule with my opponent. It is impossible to count piltos, but we can count PLANES. So here is our rule:

1. No CRAMMING of excess pilots into unit. A couple here and there are OK through WIAs coming back and whatnot, but no CRAMMING. I am Japan, and I have not been doing this anyway (even though I know how to do it easily)
2. Each side will have a PLANE limit. That's not pilots, but if you don't CRAM, it's probably about right.

Japan: 7000
Allies: 12000

This leaves a 1000 plane "cushion" in case a reinforcement rush gets us temporarily over, or as a fudge factor

What do you guys think?

With this plan you obviously have to trust your opponent. But it should avoid pilot bug, while still giving us a good game.



ttjhowell -> RE: Missing pilots? (9/27/2008 1:55:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

My very rough count (+- margin of error of few hundred), came up with about 10,500 Japanese Planes like previous poster said, and around 18,500 in Allies, between the 13,500 in LBA and all the CVs are deployed. It wouldn't quite get to that point because some CV airgroups sink and are destroyed, but all that is still alot of pilots.

I am going to propose a house rule with my opponent. It is impossible to count piltos, but we can count PLANES. So here is our rule:

1. No CRAMMING of excess pilots into unit. A couple here and there are OK through WIAs coming back and whatnot, but no CRAMMING. I am Japan, and I have not been doing this anyway (even though I know how to do it easily)
2. Each side will have a PLANE limit. That's not pilots, but if you don't CRAM, it's probably about right.

Japan: 7000
Allies: 12000

This leaves a 1000 plane "cushion" in case a reinforcement rush gets us temporarily over, or as a fudge factor

What do you guys think?

With this plan you obviously have to trust your opponent. But it should avoid pilot bug, while still giving us a good game.


So, to eliminate the extra pilots/planes you are going to:
1) Not reinforce depleted air groups by clicking on the 'get one plane' button, therefore meaning that you will not be offered the opportunity to add additional pilots.
2) When additional air groups arrive move the airframes into another group by using the 'withdraw unit' button and then selecting 'No' to the 'Reform in 90 days' question?

Will this work? Sure will take a lot of discipline from both sides...




Q-Ball -> RE: Missing pilots? (9/27/2008 2:33:26 PM)

Won't be easy, though I think the Japanese can easily manage the pilot limit. Getting pilots killed is not a problem for Japan in 1944 in my experience.

It's a little trickier for the Allies, who might be getting more air units than pilot attrition. That's one reason for much higher Allied limit. Even there, the Allies will have to start allowing some air units to shrink, or begin to disband, but probably the best way is to let those units shrink in combat.

It's not easy or ideal, but what's the alternative? You're going to lose the pilots one way or another, may as well be orderly.



Feinder -> RE: Missing pilots? (9/27/2008 3:11:02 PM)

You could also help your maintenance by perma-disbanding some of the transport squadrons.  While I do use transport squadrons, I certainly don't use anywhere close to all of them.  Also, the allies could reduce some of the patrol squadrons.  Maybe dump some of the recon squadrons for Japan (yes, I know patrols and recons are very important, I'm just thinking where you might have some excess).  Maybe dump the CVE VR squadrons (those things can get pretty big), and allow a USMC sqadron to operate nomally.  As Allies, I'd also consider dumping some squardons from nationalities who can't replace pilots as easily anyway (like the chinese and dutch).

But pending further discussion, I think setting the max planes per side is a good start at a work around.

-F-



yubari -> RE: Missing pilots? (9/27/2008 3:26:52 PM)

This is the most serious bug in the game in my opinion, it is very hard late in the game for the Japanese suddenly to lose a lot of their best pilots, it certainly made me quit my AI game when it happened in 1945. You need to take account of the killed and missing pilots who are kept in the database, but there wont be so many of them, as it is only pilots with over 10 kills who are kept. In September 1943 in my PBEM game, I only have four KIA or MIA pilots with over 10 kills.
I think that Q-Ball has the best and fairest solution, although I also like Large Slow Targets "Shoot Deserters" Button[:D]



n01487477 -> RE: Missing pilots? (9/28/2008 8:43:32 AM)

There are 30000 pilot slots, I could do some experiments but do not have a game that late in the war.



Feinder -> RE: Missing pilots? (9/28/2008 2:49:27 PM)

n#s -

Actual question - I pulled up the WitP DB, and there are 20k slots in there.  Where would the other 10k come from?  Not being adversarial; I know quite a bit about this game, but I still get surpirsed by a quirky game mechanic.  If you're -sure- there are 30k pilots, where are the other 10k pilots kept?

-F-



n01487477 -> RE: Missing pilots? (9/28/2008 3:00:22 PM)

Feinder,
not sure if you have ever looked at WitpTracker ... but I am just telling you that we found space in the savefile for 30K pilots. The editor is wrong in this aspect, or maybe it was something that has been expanded over different patches... The whole process of creating new pilots and pool problems early on in the games development probably necessitated this... STILL I am speaking as a point of conjecture, not knowledge about this. I just remember there was something about this ...

However as I can see the data, and what we read ...




Nomad -> RE: Missing pilots? (9/28/2008 3:22:36 PM)

It could be possible that the senario file has room for 20,000 pilots and the save game has room for 30,000. There was a patch item awhile back to help address this problem.



Feinder -> RE: Missing pilots? (9/28/2008 5:18:32 PM)

If there's actually 30k slots then it -shouldn't- be a problem as long as players don't overload thier squadrons.  There are frequnetly a couple extra pilots in squadrons, but as long as you're not putting 64 pilots into a 32 plane squadron, it seems it shouldn't be problem then.

What am I missing that would cause the overload?

-F-



Hard Sarge -> RE: Missing pilots? (9/28/2008 5:28:19 PM)

again, speaking from what I know of BoB/BTR

there could be 20,000 slots for the data side, pilots at start, those to come in and room for the random pilots made at start and during the game, the save is set to store up to 30,000 as pilots that are not there at start are going to be made as needed





Q-Ball -> RE: Missing pilots? (9/29/2008 2:08:25 AM)

Clarification would help before we implement a house rule, but if you have figured out a way to get 30K pilots on the map, please share, because you just fixed the pilot bug.

But nearly EVERY game in 1944 reports this happening. That makes me beleive that Feinder is right: There are 20K slots. In order to use 30K in 1944, each side would have to have ALL units at full strength, plus another 6000 to 8000 pilots stashed. I don't think so.



Feinder -> RE: Missing pilots? (9/29/2008 2:14:16 AM)

It would be good to have somebody that -is- having the problem, post the number squadrons and number of pilots.  You'd also need the opponent to do it as well.

-F-



jwilkerson -> RE: Missing pilots? (9/29/2008 2:41:05 AM)

BTW the pilots in the "pools" do count. Many of your groups have 100s of pilots in them even though you may only see 20 or 30 pilots. All the wounded pilots are there. Well in the original design all the dead ones too. There have been several rounds of changes in the patches to increasing purging, but that only gets you so far. We used to circulate an unofficial version of the game for those that needed it - but there were complaints to management about that - so we stopped. We can't increase the number of slots without changing the data type and save file format which would make all existing games unplayable. We did dramatically increase the pilot array for AE.




Q-Ball -> RE: Missing pilots? (9/29/2008 3:50:17 AM)

Thanks JW, I will take that as confirmation that 20K is the limit. AND, that in reality, all those extras mean that you will start to see the BUG when there are 19K planes or so on the map (assuming neither player has alot of units over TOE in pilots).

So, if we attempt this, what is a fair division of the Pilot Numbers?
I though 7K for Japan and 12K for Allies, is that right? Or, more for Allies?

Also, Feinder, your suggestion for Allied player to disband transport and patrol units, that won't help to reduce the pilot numbers. The Pilots would just move to another unit. The only way to really clear that excess, I think, is to load a single unit up with 200 pilots or so from multiple disbands, load it on a transport, and sail it to Tokyo. That would kill the pilots.



Feinder -> RE: Missing pilots? (9/29/2008 3:54:00 AM)

quote:

The Pilots would just move to another unit. The only way to really clear that excess, I think, is to load a single unit up with 200 pilots or so from multiple disbands, load it on a transport, and sail it to Tokyo. That would kill the pilots.


Yeah, you're right. Didn't think about that.

At least it would would save you some hassel to perma-disband them into the the suicide squadron. At least you'd know all the ones you perma-disbanded wouldn't be coming back.



n01487477 -> RE: Missing pilots? (9/29/2008 3:35:17 PM)

This is my DB Totals of pilots from May '42.

These numbers include delayed pilots already assigned to air groups ...

japanese pilots= 7862
wia/mia/kia 38

allied= 14434
wia/mia/kia 84

Free= 7703
total = 29999




Yakface -> RE: Missing pilots? (9/29/2008 4:56:59 PM)

In that case, this is a bit odd.  Pionkki (original poster in this thread) and I did a count of the numbers of planes we each had on the map/in fleets.  Jan 44 CHS scn 157:  IJAF had 7500 planes and the US 13,000.  We would have had some squadrons with extra pikots and some with fewer, but I can't imagine it would add up to 30K



Feinder -> RE: Missing pilots? (9/29/2008 6:31:22 PM)

Interesting.

By Yakface's count (with 21k), that supports the 20k theory. But if that's the case, that also means that n#'s situation in only May 42 with 21k pilots would -also- violate the limit. So if 20k is the limit, why isn't n# getting the error?

My head is starting to hurt...
-F-



USSAmerica -> RE: Missing pilots? (9/29/2008 6:57:18 PM)

[sm=00000613.gif]

My game with Mynok is only in 3/42, but I sure hope one of you guys with big brains can figure out a work around before 2017, which is about when I expect us to get far enough along in our game to hit the problem.  [:D]



ttjhowell -> RE: Missing pilots? (9/29/2008 9:20:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

quote:

The Pilots would just move to another unit. The only way to really clear that excess, I think, is to load a single unit up with 200 pilots or so from multiple disbands, load it on a transport, and sail it to Tokyo. That would kill the pilots.


Yeah, you're right. Didn't think about that.

At least it would would save you some hassel to perma-disband them into the the suicide squadron. At least you'd know all the ones you perma-disbanded wouldn't be coming back.


Yes, it looks like perma-disbanding won't work because the pilots don't just disappear - they go into the named pilot pool. You can see this sometimes after you have disbanded a few units and then top up another unit with pilots. The guys that arrive aren't at the base experience level, their experence is above that although the more you pull the lower the experience gets until you are at the base level.

So a one way trip to Tokyo it shall be...




Q-Ball -> RE: Missing pilots? (9/30/2008 3:05:33 AM)

We will see what happens. BTW, my esteemed opponent is also Danish, alot of Danish WITP players it seems.

Any other comments on the plane limits? I am thinking of going to, instead of 7000/12000, maybe 6500/12500? My opponent is already at 12500, I don't want him to implode.



Cathartes -> RE: Missing pilots? (9/30/2008 6:34:05 AM)

WITP Tracker is a good way to view your "hidden" pilots.  Check a few of your more active squadrons and you will see a few MIA, KIA, WIA beyond what you can view in the game, or at least as I know how to view in the game. 

Will the idea of sending a transport full of multiple permanent disbanded groups & pilots work?  Has anyone really tested this?





Cathartes -> RE: Missing pilots? (9/30/2008 9:10:09 PM)

The more you dig into this pilot situation, the weirder it gets.

I permanently disbanded two fighter squadrons into one, converting the remaining squadron into P-36 Hawks. This squadron, the 8th Fighter Squadron now has 71 pilots according the info screen on the squadron. The Pilots tab shows the same after counting.  Content that I'm going to try and eliminate 71 pilots, I send them off to tour Japan on a small transport ship. 

We'll see if they really disappear when the ship gets sunk, but here's the weird part:

After going into WITP Tracker v1.3, I arrange the pilots according to airgroups (Pilots tab in the Airgroups and Pilots screen) and discover that the 8th Fighter Group has 310 pilots!!  All the 71 pilots are there, including a couple hundred others. These pilots are NOT visible at all in the game, anywhere anyhow, yet they are showing up in the save and among them are a large number of experienced pilots in the 70s (neither the 8th Fighter Group nor the units disbanded into it ever saw combat). 

WITP Tracker has the capacity to show 29,999 pilot slots, but ther are multiple gaps in slot #s.  I've asked the creator to show row #s so we can actually see how many pilots we have in the save, relative to the number of aircraft in game.



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