no glorification; please (Full Version)

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jew_dragov -> no glorification; please (8/16/2001 5:46:00 PM)

On my opinion SPWAW is one of the best games in our time. I have experienced that a lot of players are very young. Some military leaders were at the age of 14-15.. and defeated me!!!
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I personally don't like the cover picture; with the soldier having SS runes on the helmet. Another thing is that SPWAW page plays "Sieg Heil" now when i enter! I like computer warfare, because it is only on computers. But how shall the teenagers realize it?
They orientate on that what they experience in this game. It's an impression of history for many not only for me.
Often I heard from the youngster: "When I would live in 1940, I would join the Waffen SS". Don't let the youth forget, which cruel and genocide they have done! It was not only military war and heroism.
Please realize, that the game would be forbidden soon in Germany, when officially selled in Stores. SS Runes, swastika and other symbols and slogans like "Heil Hitler" are forbidden by law in Germany.
Maybe this view could be changed a little bit. A disclaimer, historic background information or something like this would be great for the teens. Because no one should say: the game spreads nationalistic trends! I know, this was never the intention of the SPWAW team. Its only a great game! What do you think about it ? It's possible that this is only a discussed problem in Germany. greetz, kmd_dragov [ August 16, 2001: Message edited by: kmd_dragov ]



Larry Holt -> (8/16/2001 7:19:00 PM)

The game has the capability to replace the swastiki with the national cross. I believe its illegal in Germany as well as France to sell Nazi memorabilia, including items with swastikis but its not illegal to sell items with representations of historical items. That is the items but not historical images of them are illegal. If it were, history books would be illegal.



Resisti -> (8/16/2001 8:16:00 PM)

Kmd-Dragov, it is possible to turn off or change both the swastika logo and the intro song, but i dont remember how,sorry.
Hope somebody else can pass you the info.



Arralen -> (8/16/2001 8:43:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Holt:
I believe its illegal in Germany as well as France to sell Nazi memorabilia, including items with swastikis but its not illegal to sell items with representations of historical items. That is the items but not historical images of them are illegal. If it were, history books would be illegal.
..but this is a game, not a history book, so one has to be very careful about displaying those 'verfassungsfeindliche Symbole" (dunno how to translate this ..). I consulted a lawyer about that, and it turned out that distributing SPWAW in Germany is very likely to be illegal, unless one would change the symbols and the sound file in the installation package - having the possiblity to change them after installation won't do. Arralen



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (8/16/2001 10:34:00 PM)

Being Canadian, and in no way connected with the German experience (beyond having a grandfather who fought them in our army during WW2), my opinions are completely the work of my environment. Unfortunately my environment is becoming increasingly one of confusion, distrust and outright falsehoods and lies. Our youth today are being led astray from the truth of the horrors of the 30s'-40's. This is all being done under the protection of the right to free speech. Free speech is valuable wherever it is, although it appears you only get the full effect in Canada and the US. I am not here to limit what some offensive indivduals might like to say, but I can limit my own level of tolerance. That is a forcefull comment, but a necessary one. Matrix must always be one step ahead of itself where the horrors of war are concerned. Images are unfortunately rarely just images. A picture says a thousand words as they say. To put an image into circulation or a sound bite that has no competing imagery to balance it out, is a dangerous step. Every time we use the cliche image of German arms or manpower alone, we are walking dangerous ground. The lunatic fringe that revels in the horrors of that war doesnt need are help. Remember its not suppression of free speech when we make the choice ourselves. We gamers know the meaning of the images and sounds. I am not worried about the people who play the games. My concern is for the casual observers who might not be so lucky to understand the truth behind the message.
Its sad that I actually know of so many instances, where so many of our youth actually DONT know anything about that horrifying chapter in our past.



mcbradley -> (8/17/2001 1:15:00 AM)

Hi Folks, As the son of a U.S. Army Air Corps sergeant who spent 14 months in Stalag Luft 1, I have no love for the Nazi party or their philosophy. In no way do I advocate Nazi ideology or anything they stood or stand for. But banning the display of the swastika in an historic context is ridiculous. Since SPWAW is based on history probably more than any other PC game, banning the swastika from it would be an intrusive picking of nits. It’s just a symbol of identification, nothing more. The paranoia about the effect of symbols on the minds of young people has it’s place, but IMHO, it is carried to extremes. Simply banning the display of symbols is counter productive if there is no accompanying explanation of the historic impact of those symbols. Children are inherently curious creatures. Such unexplained bans only raise their inquisitive curiosity as to why these symbols are banned. If left to investigate on their own without proper perspective as guidance, this curiosity can often lead to an infatuation with the group the symbols represent, often as a way of developing some sense of belonging. If we are going to continue to impose bans such as these, then there must be some accompanying in-depth history provided to justify the ban to subsequent generations who did not actually experience the times. We can’t just say “don’t look at this, its bad”. We as parents must take some responsibility when we encounter a youngster viewing such "banned material". We're stupid to make the government do our babysitting for us. We must take the time to explain to the best of our abilities what happened to bring about such a ban. Use graphic pictures and videos of the holocaust to get the point across if you have to. Pictures ARE worth a thousand words, often more. As a builder of detailed, historically-accurate scale models of WWII fighter planes, I am often disappointed in the fact that the Japanese also seem to be prohibited from displaying / manufacturing swastikas. Since the Japanese produce some of the highest quality model kits on the market, I often like to buy them to build and paint the most accurate miniature possible, only to be stymied when there is no swastika, just a white diamond decal to apply to the tail. I can purchase American-made decal sheets separately that DO include swastikas, so the whole exercise seems totally pointless. And since the Japanese have a hard time truthfully educating their kids about their part in WWII, how banning the display of swastikas is going to protect the minds of Japanese children is beyond me. Accurate history is needed far more than prohibition. O. Bradley



Supervisor -> (8/17/2001 2:44:00 AM)

Well put O. Bradley. I speak from first-hand experience that teaching the facts of history, let alone an appreciation of it, is an uphill battle. Maybe that's why humanity is almost doomed to repeat the same mistakes over and over again. Again from my experience, most who get into wargames already have a somewhat more developed sense of history. If they don't, they soon will or they will never be any good at them. Of course, you will always have those few who draw the wrong message from history (a "lunatic fringe, if you will) & choose to glorify that which does not deserve glory. I have had a suspicion for some time, don't know if it's true, that after soldiers, wargamers are some of the most peace-loving people I know - because we have a better idea of what war is about.



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (8/17/2001 6:25:00 AM)

Had to add this comment that I recalled. During the Gulf war this woman on a telvision talk show had so completely missed the mark.
She was I believe a member of the establishment (psychiatry, or social worker or something). It was her sad lament that people were playing a game called Gulf Strike (any real grognard knows this title) as well as a newly produced wargame that was more or less being put into print because of the Gulf conflict.
She was commenting from her "knowing" viewpoint, that the people playing these games were not supporting the troops in the Gulf appropriately. She explained how writing a serviceman a letter would be so much more supportive.
The sad truth of the matter was this idiot hadnt the slightest clue why we wargamers play wargames. That is a very telling statement. Its true most wargamers are an informed lot. That most of us are intimately familiar with the ravages of war in a systematic and detailed manner.
Its the same reason why most rolegamers are fully aware that rolegamers are not all a bunch of satan worshipping baby eaters. Yet that is not the perception that most people have of the hobby. As it goes, I am used to being thought of a war mongering glorifier of war. Most ordinary people see people like us as thinking war is fun. Its always dangerous to give the public to much credit. It wounds me greatly to hear comments like the one of a friends young son (mid teens), that Rememberance day is an intrusion to his free time.
Kids today know a great deal less sometimes than we realise. There are for instance no persons on this forum that are hear merely to find out why we wargamers play these wargames.
It has been my sad experience that todays youth not only have no idea of what happened during the second world war, but they dont even remember the Gulf war conflict.
Its a limitation of their not having been old enough to have seen it on television (which seems to be a real limitation, that and most games have nothing to do with historical context to often). Its why I comment that we have to ruthlessly monitor what we do. Because the public is not seeing what we see. Myself I make the effort of occasionally getting my opinionated self in the faces of those same "ordinary people". We have to never let the matter sleep. Nothing we say here on Matrix will ever get to the people we need to reach.
It has to be said in the open in the clear in the public media. I routinely put my views on the line in public publications. The best defense is a good offense definitely applies here. We have to make people see what we see period. Otherwise we end up with misguided people like that woman on national television explaining how wargamers are not doing the right thing.



Supervisor -> (8/17/2001 7:24:00 AM)

The way to change the Swastika is to go into the sub folder of /SHP and select the items within the IronCross folder and copy them into the main /SHP folder. You can always change back by reversing the procedure and selecting the contents within the /SHP/Swastika folder and copying back into the /SHP folder. As for the intro song I don't recall how change it I don't remember which wave is used to start the game.



Christopher -> (8/19/2001 9:46:00 PM)

Interesting topic.
Personally, I don't have any problems with svastikas on the objective markers, since it's just historically correct and there is no message behind.
A totally different thing is the sound-file that is played when entering the SP:WaW-page. I (and all of my friends who visited the page as well) was quite shocked when I heard it the first time. I think SP:WaW is the best wargame I have ever played and I love every bit of the game. This however lacks all sense of taste, if you know what I mean. It is not "cool" or something and I consider it even to be a bit disrespectful towards all those who fought and possibly died in WW2.
If I was the web-master, I would drop it...
...however I am not and this is just my personal opinion... [ August 19, 2001: Message edited by: Christopher ]



KG Erwin -> (8/20/2001 12:10:00 AM)

I tend to agree with the guys who are a little dismayed about the sound intro on the SPWaW page. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big admirer of the German ability to wage war (at least from 1870 to 1941), and of their weapons and uniforms, but the political philosophy was (and is) abhorrent. The game is advertised as being multinational in content, so something with a military theme but not nation-specific would be better (my suggestion would be a few bars of "Mars, Bringer of War", from Holst's "The Planets". Now that would be cool. Even better would be a snippet of Derek Boain's stirring SPWaW soundtrack.)



Waylander -> (8/20/2001 12:56:00 AM)

Well, from the first time I heard the intro and saw the Swastika, I knew that this was going to come up.
You cannot and never will be able to adequately explain to today's or any age's youth about why this or that is banned and the cause.
The simple fact is that when you mention 35 killed in bus accident we can all equate to that number. We cannot equate to 6,000,000 or 20,000,000. It is impossible to give anyone the same perspective as a soldier who liberated Buchenwald.
As Greater germany lost the war they become (for better or worse)the targets. But where do we stop?? how about changing the name of ZJS tanks because that man managed to beat Hitler hands down in the numbers game. Do we start adding a short description of the british forcibly repatriating Ukranians (who fought for the Axis powers) to certain death , or condemning the US for not prosecuting the members of Unit 731 in exchange for their research??.
Gentlemen this is a GAME.
If you not changing/removing a couple of symbols and some sound is going to corrupt the youth of today, you don't get out much.
I suggest you turn off your computers and travel a little to say,
the Congo/Angola/indonesia/Afganistan. See whats happening today and maybe what happened in the 1940's may gain a little perspective.
Because we cannot change what happened then, but We can change what is happeneing now, and its not all lilac and roses out there boys. regards
Freddie



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (8/20/2001 3:39:00 AM)

To add to Waylanders remarks The biggest tragedy of the second World War, is precisely that we as a race learned absolutely nothing from those staggering millions that died during the 30's and 40's which dragged on into the 50's and 60's and then through into the 70's and even reappeared nicely in the Balkans in the 90's. We are still fighting the Second World War in some places, in spite of the fact that all the main players went home. As late as just a few years back we were still having people throw off the oppression of that conflict. The Ukrainians Latvians, Lithuanians and Estonians were never willingly part of Russia for instance. Damn good thing Hitler DIDNT have the common sense to enlist the aid of the Russian hating peoples, or he wouldnt have buggered up the war in the east. And then we would certainly be sitting in a different world. Its for this specific reason that I am so interested in people remembering the war "that happened so long ago". Because in some respects its not really even over yet. Depends on the perspective of the person I guess and where they live. Take Israel for instance. They havent known peace since they created that country. And they were born of the Second World War, so that part of WW2 is not yet concluded.



Greg Wilmoth -> (8/20/2001 8:31:00 AM)

I have an interest in airships, and last year I bought a scale model of the Hindenburg from Revell, Germany. It came with little decals which included Nazi flags for the fin flashes. However, there were no swastikas, just little red rectangles with white circles in the center. Apparently the models are considered toys in Germany and cannot bear Nazi symbols.



David Heath -> (8/21/2001 5:07:00 AM)

Hi Guys Lets take this from the Matrix view for a moment. The picture is a famous German poster and the two Canadians on the left are taken from war posters from that era. The war started with German and that is why we went with that. On the sound. I felt that if it was just Hitler ranting I never would have put that on the site. The speech is one that Hitler was giving the day the Allies declared war on Germany. The speech is also translated into English so everyone knows what is being said. We used this sound bit because it was at the start of the war and hence the game. Years ago SSI was attacked for have SS units in one of there games. This is crazy in my IMHO. The bottom line is this if everyone (or just a lot of you) do not like it I am more then willing ot take it off and replace the sound file. I do not want gamers not wanting to visit the site because of a sound file. If any one was hurt or offended I am sorry. I just figured it was historically showing the times.



HighPingDrifter -> (8/21/2001 9:04:00 PM)

My $.02...some smart person once said that those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. IMO, one of the greatest tragedies in recorded history was WW2, and the Holocaust which was part of it. I think we need to do everything within our powers to keep the memory of WW2 alive, lest our children never learn the lessons of it and repeat them 20 years from now. I think Shirer's "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" should be required reading for graduation from High School. Written by a historian, it's not an easy read, but I found it immensely illuminating, I finally understood how an entire nation could match itself into the slaughterhaus of war and genocide. I despise anyone who would glorify the madness of Adolf Hitler's Third Reich, but I must stand in defense of MatrixGames and say that I do NOT believe for a second they would ever intentionally do anything to glorify the Nazi Third Reich. WW2 happened, and so did Auschwitz and Buchenwald and Bergen-Belsen...we cannot stick our heads in the sand because these horrors offend us...we must look right at it and know, for sure, it could happen again if we let it.
.H*P*D. "Well *I* brought my dinosaur that EATS forcefield dogs!"



bradmbrown -> (8/21/2001 11:00:00 PM)

My son and his friend discovered this game of Dad's called SPWAW.
I heard giggles and animated discussion in the computer room and after a while I went up to find out what had them so excited.
They had a row of troops on a plain grass battle map and opposite the troops a row of enemy units.
They were shooting down the enemy units as they moved about confused. There didn't seem to be any RETURN OP fire.
I asked them what they were shooting at.
My son said, "Civilians." I said "Oh," and walked out of there fast, I had to think about that a bit. I know my son and his buddy were testing weapons effectiveness. I already know that. But I have NEVER tested combat units that way in any game I have ever owned. I didn't even think of it until I saw it the other day. I am still thinking about it. It has only been a couple days and I am not forgetting I must teach the boy a thing or two. But I have to decide, and be very CAREFUL deciding what form the lessons should take. Big can of worms this. My now ex-wife used to scream bloody murder because of my hobby. She had a lot of opinions about "Guys who like to play with toy soldiers." If our son goes to his mommy's house for a few days and fires up SPWAW there and his mom sees him gunning down a row of civilians she will come gunning for me and she will bring her army (it has happenned before). Never mind the mother, back to my original dilemna: How do I demonstrate to my son our hobby is tabletop wargames, NOT tabletop ethnic cleansing? Every argument I can think of he can smash to pieces.



KG Erwin -> (8/21/2001 11:43:00 PM)

All of this is making me wonder now how a group of gamers gathering here in West Virginia is going to be perceived by the masses. I'm looking forward to getting us together for a celebration of Matrix and its products, and I anticipate there will be some media attention once we really start promoting it outside of this site. However, I suppose we should start considering the "image" factor, and public perceptions of our hobby. Unfortunately, some of it may not be entirely positive, so for those of you who are coming to Charleston next year, we'd better be ready to put on our game faces and be ready to represent not only Matrix but the enire wargaming community.



byron13 -> (8/22/2001 12:25:00 AM)

General Amnesty: I had to laugh at your predicament, but I understand it. Not having kids, I'm not sure what to do. Seems like pictures do the best job. Maybe a talk session with books or magazines showing civilian casualties (bodies lined up in rows) from any war from WWII on including Viet Nam or even the Balkans. The military seems all glamorous until you see the picture of bodies being thrown into ditches and getting twisted in impossible ways. Maybe you could find a World at War video at Blockbuster or somewhere that captures the civilian plight. Seems they would've done one on that. Finally, for the family vacation next year, go to Europe and see the U.S. military cemeteries and Dachau. You can't help but be affected when you actually go to these places and see rows and rows of markers or hideous photos. Or how about the holocaust museum in Washington? I guess my answer is certainly try and explain it, but reinforce it with pictures.



bradmbrown -> (8/22/2001 12:58:00 AM)

I just thought of this in the shower... Imagine this dose of swift kick in the arse "simulation:"
You turn your AV around a corner on an unscouted roadway, you are in a hurry, the unit and the convoy following, is needed very badly up there, on a hill or something.
There, for as far as your unit can see is a row of huge stacks of civilian units. They do not belong to your side so you can't click them and order them off the road. I don't know how to do that in SPWAW (yet).
HOWEVER:
I think I may set up a tabletop miniatures game and include a horde of refugees clogging the roads, backed up for miles around and camped in huge clusters. Instead of tanks, artillery and infantry, I will grant one boy a couple APCs and a food convoy and have him escort them to the refugees. His friend can take the side of a local warlord with a couple squads of irregulars, with shiny new ATMs...
If the boy with the food convoy gets to his objective, he wins the game. If the other boy, the one running the warlord side, wins, then I, the referree, will say something like "Warlord Grablx, you have beaten the NWO side. Congratulations. The food convoy did not get through to the refugees there, by the river. Your troops love the rice and beans and vitamin pills the destroyed NWO humanitarian convoy left burning. (yummy!) "
I will role a couple dice and then announce that due to the warlord's great victory, seventy five thousand moms dads and kids died from drinking bad water and bullet ventilation.
I think this may be a sneaky way for me to get the kids to think a bit, without the need for a "talk from dad."



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (8/22/2001 7:57:00 AM)

Kids today are not the kids of my day and time unfortunately.
I have the overwhelming urge to spit on people that tell me the viloence in media has no effect on the people watching it. My son possesses no toys that have "weapons" yet his play often involves one toy attacking the other. Its sad in a big way. And dont go thinking that the public will see the media as being responsible. No it will point the finger at the warmongering crowd. When ya meet in groups and draw attention to our hobby dont be surprised when people say the most outrageous inaccuracies about ya. And this comes from an active rolegamer that has heard aaaaaaall about my satan worshipping hobby called generically "Dungeons and Dragons" (which is like calling every wargame on the market Tactics II. Alas wargamers are like rolegamers. We sit at home enjoying our hobbies and no one sees much of us. So the public makes up the stuff with no input from us for the most part. What the public knows of wargaming, is told to them by biased uneducated persons. Its not enough for General Amnesty to educate his son. He should beat some facts into the head of his ex. Because she is the enemy here. Its the idiotic ramblings by people like her by the sounds of things that people are listening to. He can show the boys the truth, and they will know. But his ex will require a great deal more effort. I by the way dont let my son laugh at other people suffering. War is not something to laugh at. It is one thing to study it, to know it, quite another matter to make it harmless "fun".



bradmbrown -> (8/22/2001 8:45:00 AM)

The only way to keep our kids safe from media influence is to go and live in the bush with no boat out. The boy's mom was living in Winnipeg when a bad flood happenned there. She and her room mate were pulled out of their farm house and rode in a Canadian Armed Forces APC to a big church on some high ground. They were tended to lovingly by some fabulous troops and then handed over to the tender care of the Red Cross and a bazillion other good folks. I have asked her why she dislikes the military so much, after a wonderful thing like that happenned to her. She ripostes the same tired cliches over and over again and it isn't possible to argue with her or she will have me beaten by her four big ugly brothers. Personally, it is her style of unregulated, untrained and un called for violence that I fear and resent! I watched a big busted-nose soldier in a small town in Alberta take a punch right on the nose by a angry cowboy. He backed off saying, "Sorry, sorry. I am SORRY!" The bouncers got to the cowboy and threw him out. I asked the soldier, later, why he didn't hit the man back.
He shrugged and said, "I am on leave and want to relax." I would trust a soldier as easily as I would a police officer or a firefighter. I wish my son to see more people with the class that one lone groundhog showed in that little saloon that night.



Tombstone -> (8/22/2001 10:42:00 AM)

As far as the intro goes, it is a little much. I totally agree with the reasons for having it. However, when my girlfriend (who is Jewish, well read, and had family who suffered in the war) saw and heard it, she was not amused. 'People' on average do not have the same kind of particular knowlege of WW2 like 'we' do. That is part of the power inherent in images. They communicate whatever has been associated with them. In an intro there is hardly enough time to explain that the site is about WW2, much less discuss anything as complicated as the crux of this thread. I think it causes more harm than good. I would rather see it stay than go, but I don't think it's a big deal.. and in the end not worth any trouble it could generate. I, personally, tend to follow the anti-censorship line of thinking... but you guys have a product to sell. Popularity matters. Aside from that stuff, the whole anti-war sentiment among many people in the world is perfectly understandable. Come on. Growing up I learned that my life and the lives of those I cared about were very important. It doesn't take much effort to hate killing... and it doesn't take much effort to associate killing and war. Conflict is fascinating (why I'm into war), but very difficult to understand... even in it's simplest states. War is super complex and outside the scope of most peoples' existance. The usual response to something that repulses you is NOT to try and understand everything about it that you can. Tomo



KG Erwin -> (8/22/2001 11:49:00 AM)

Tomo, the thing I 'm trying to get across is that we may at some point have to defend our hobby against the prevailing anti-war sentiments (admirable as they are, but too full of misinformation) on our side of the globe. I've gone over the subject of the appeal of wargames before, and we've discussed it within the confines of our own community, but, indeed the subject of war and its fascination is infinitely complex. One of these days, the media is gonna give us a peek (our 15 minutes of fame) and they will try in their lowest-common-denominator way to understand what we, the wargaming community, are all about. What would YOU tell some ill-informed media person? [ August 22, 2001: Message edited by: KG Erwin ]



bradmbrown -> (8/22/2001 1:41:00 PM)

quote:

One of these days, the media is gonna give us a peek (our 15 minutes of fame) and they will try in their lowest-common-denominator way to understand what we, the wargaming community, are all about. What would YOU tell some ill-informed media person?
THAT is a VERY good idea for a new thread!



TheZel66 -> (8/22/2001 7:43:00 PM)

WHile I love the game as well.. I always thought the opening sound file for the SPWAW website was a bit over-the-top. Bad taste. I wish they get rid of it. (Webber, where you at???)



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (8/22/2001 10:06:00 PM)

Thats not a bad idea. I am running with it. See my new thread. Defend wargaming in no more than what you can speak in 30 seconds or 100 words or less. Going to call it just that as well "Defend Wargaming" lets see if the forum can even stay on topic to heheheheh



MagnusOlsson -> (8/27/2001 3:11:00 AM)

As for education, I'd like to recommend Elie Wiesels novels (particularily 'Night') for kids as well as grownups.
It is not only the wargaming communtiy that has experienced problems with displaying swastikas. I recall vaguely that the video for David Bowie's 'China Girl' contained swastikas (as well as the lyrics) that resulted in a ban in Japan (IIRC).



John Turesson -> (8/30/2001 1:47:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by kmd_dragov:

I personally don't like the cover picture; with the soldier having SS runes on the helmet. Another thing is that SPWAW page plays "Sieg Heil" now when i enter! I like computer warfare, because it is only on computers. But how shall the teenagers realize it?
What do you think about it ? It's possible that this is only a discussed problem in Germany. greetz, kmd_dragov [ August 16, 2001: Message edited by: kmd_dragov ]
I do understand your sentiments and for those who does not understrand the power of symbols let me just say.
"The swastika is just a symbol until the day someone carves that symbol on your door." John T.



Sgt.Striker -> (8/30/2001 6:17:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1:
To add to Waylanders remarks The biggest tragedy of the second World War, is precisely that we as a race learned absolutely nothing from those staggering millions that died during the 30's and 40's which dragged on into the 50's and 60's and then through into the 70's and even reappeared nicely in the Balkans in the 90's. We are still fighting the Second World War in some places, in spite of the fact that all the main players went home. As late as just a few years back we were still having people throw off the oppression of that conflict. The Ukrainians Latvians, Lithuanians and Estonians were never willingly part of Russia for instance. Damn good thing Hitler DIDNT have the common sense to enlist the aid of the Russian hating peoples, or he wouldnt have buggered up the war in the east. And then we would certainly be sitting in a different world. Its for this specific reason that I am so interested in people remembering the war "that happened so long ago". Because in some respects its not really even over yet. Depends on the perspective of the person I guess and where they live. Take Israel for instance. They havent known peace since they created that country. And they were born of the Second World War, so that part of WW2 is not yet concluded.
He did enlist Lithuanians, Estonians, Latavians,Ukraines,Cossacks and Even Russian to help him figh in the east, only problem was that they were given inferior equipment and training.



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